OT, Solar asst.

Gary Mitchell · Feb 5, 2021

Yesterday I was talking to the guy that installed our solar electric set-up a few years back. The electric coops have figured out how to finagle the billing process to minimalize the savings of our sun powered addition so I was pricing going all electric. He recommended I wait a couple of years. He thinks battery prices will come way down over the next 2 years or so. He recommended instead that I have a timer installed on the hot water heater and never use the electric clothes dryer during peak billing times. He said that those two changes alone could cut as much as $60/month from our electric bill. I know one thing, after getting used to our bill running from $32/mo to $62/mo for the past few years, the $170 bill we got this month chapped my hind quarters enuf to begin actively looking for additional alternatives. Any and all suggestions are welcome and thanks in advance! gm

Gary Mitchell · Feb 5, 2021

I meant to say "all solar". gm

moresmoke · Feb 5, 2021

It’s a continual thing. The cost of battery storage has already come down a lot.

But, reducing consumption is something you can do now that will save you money whether you are connected to the grid, or go full alternative energy in the future.

DoubleO7 · Feb 5, 2021

So your saying that the state PSC approved a 275% rate increase ?

dpendzic · Feb 5, 2021

I had a timer installed on my water heater and didn't help much with usage----but extra insulation around it did help quite a bit

Gary Mitchell · Feb 5, 2021

I'm saying they manipulated the billing system to cause peak/non-peak rate differences that screw solar electric users. gm

Dave41A · Feb 5, 2021

I am looking into "grid tie" solar. You can get individual "plug and play" grid-tie inverters that basically let you plug your solar panels right into a 220V feedline. Then you give-and-take with the power company all day. Each one can handle 3 or 4 panels.

You can add batteries later if you really want. I haven't done it yet but there are calculators out there which will give you expected savings based on your zip code's expected sunshine and local KW-hr pricing.

This also lets you size your battery bank for just "emergency" loads (fridge, well & heat), or use a portable generator.

You would need the inverters either way, so it is not wasted cost, and you can spread it out over a few years with a few panels at a time to see if it "makes cents" for you rather than spending big money all at once on big components only to find out it's a disappointment.

That's my plan, anyway. Others will likely advise differently. Dave

DoubleO7 · Feb 5, 2021

(quoted from post at 13:44:18 02/05/21) I'm saying they manipulated the billing system to cause peak/non-peak rate differences that screw solar electric users. gm

I bet the new billing scheme also has to be approved.
Your peak rate must be like 100 times more expensive than the off peak rate?

Have you checked for anything that might be on when it should be off?

We only have a higher billing rate for each 1000kwh on the meter.

bc · Feb 5, 2021

I'm not much of a fan of solar to save any money. However I did invent a solar powered snow melter which I should probably get a patent on and get rich.

dpendzic · Feb 5, 2021

doesn't it also screw electric users that are non-solar assist??

Ozlander · Feb 5, 2021

My peak rate is 5 bucks a kwatt/hour. 3 to 6 pm.
Costs me about $16 a month.

moresmoke · Feb 5, 2021

How you are billed with energy production depends on the jurisdiction you are in.

It is what is called "net metering". If you are in an area where net metering is the law, you give and take with the utility at a constant price per Kwh.

If you do not have net metering, you give to the utility at wholesale rate and buy back at retail.

Net metering was legislated in many areas to promote the development of alternative power. Now that the is more power being produced by individuals, the utilities are pushing against this as they have to shoulder the cost of being your battery

paul · Feb 5, 2021

And if you grid tie, you need to auto disconnect when the power goes off, so you don’t backfeed a dead power line. That is dangerous to others and hard on your equipment.

Adding that complexity, and then adding the complexity of charging and maintaining your own batteries as well as the grid tie, makes for an expensive setup.

Then if you don’t have grid tie rules (and, why should the electric company buy your juice for retail....) you are getting wholesale income, and still paying retail for the incoming juice.

All of this makes the payoff pretty slow. Tho there is a lot of free govt money being thrown around to subsidize this, and it appears they will be a lot more soon.

Paul

Gary Mitchell · Feb 5, 2021

Our peak hrs are 6-9 am and 4-7 pm.
That really puts the hurt on us in the
winter. gm

Gary Mitchell · Feb 5, 2021

Not really dp, not in the sense of additional charges. The lesser charge we all pay on non peak juice averages out for them. gm

buickanddeere · Feb 5, 2021

Battery prices are not coming down.
A bank of batteries will not save any money in the long term.
About all you can do with solar is to use it with a grid tie inverter and reduce daytime peak rate utility power consumption to near zero.
As you have noted. A timer on the electric water heater to eliminate operation during peak rate. And use appliances during the lowest rates.
Not sure why you are are complaining about such a low cost electrical bill. Here is mine.

Hydro One Networks
Acct #
Your Electricity Statement is ready
Amount Due:
$237.32
Please pay by February 23, 2021

DoubleO7 · Feb 5, 2021

is
Moresmoke,
"the utilities are pushing against this as they have to shoulder the cost of being your battery"

Why should the utility be forced to buy your power at retail?
It should be at the wholesale price they pay to their major power supplier.

Dave41A · Feb 5, 2021

The modern plug-and-play ones automatically sense line current and disconnect when grid power is lost. They also sense your panel's voltage output and disconnect it so you don't "power" the solar panel at night.

A "microinverter" can be had for $150 or so. The big ones are much more.

As noted, whether it pays depends on your local metering regulations and sunlight levels. But I'd rather invest a few hundred at most and see what it gets me.
As the expression goes, a good accurate measurement is worth 1000 expert opinions.
I have no interest in the link provided--this is just the first to pop up on a quick search. I am sure there are others, maybe with better prices.
solar stuff

Dave41A · Feb 5, 2021

Many states regulate their power companies and fix the wholesale rate that can be charged by producers. The distributors are required to buy at this rate and can only charge a regulated amount over this for distribution. If you have solar (or wind or hydro) anything extra you produce HAS to be sold to the utility at wholesale price as you are now a "producer." The utility is not allowed to pay you more. Your state may be different.

The distribution cost is the cost of maintaining the wires, poles and right-of-way. It is pro-rated by location, based on expected maintenance costs. You won't get this back unless you maintain your own poles.

However, everything you use during the day you are selling to yourself at retail. So it's not as if you make 5 KWhr and use 10 KWhr and are buying all 10 KWHr at retail and selling back 5 KWHr at wholesale. Rather, you're reducing your net usage down to 5 KWhr, and only paying for this.

If you want to make surplus and sell it back during the day to cover your expenses at night that is a different story as the retail/wholesale/peak pricing difference kicks in.

The original post was asking about reducing costs, not being "independent," so a grid-tie to at least put a dent in the bill might help. The only way to know is to run the math yourself or build a small system as an experiment and find out.

Bret4207 · Feb 6, 2021

(quoted from post at 14:20:30 02/05/21) doesn't it also screw electric users that are non-solar assist??

Ssshhhh!!! You aren't supposed to mention the costs are passed on to the rest of the consumers! Don't gore peoples Golden Calf!

Gary Mitchell · Feb 6, 2021

They don't. What little they are required to buy back brings is at about 1/10th the rate of what they charge us for off-peak. The buy-back angle was never an issue with us anyway. We were aware of the rate structure at that time. gm

Gary Mitchell · Feb 6, 2021

We pay the coop $30/month merely for the honor and privilege of being connected to the grid. You are ill-informed. gm

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