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I don't get it II

S

Stephen Newell

Well-known Member
I had a thread a couple days ago about my case 210B tractor how the starter was struggling to turn the engine over. I replaced the battery and ran an auxiliary ground wire to the starter. I made sure there was no gas or water in the cylinders and it still struggled.

I may have found the issue. Someone suggested I might have a stuck valve so I took the valve cover off, removed a spark plug and cranked the engine to see if all the valves were functioning. They were but I noticed one of the exhaust valves had a broken spring.

I've got a replacement spring ordered. Now I have to figure out how to get the snap ring off the valve. There is only about a sixteenth gap between the ends of the ring.
 
Are you talking about the keeper that holds the valve retainer over the spring. These are usually a split keeper. You have to raise the piston to the top and get a claw type compressor to push down on the retainer so the tapered split keeper is raised high enough above the retainer to remove them. You can usually get a loaner compressor from a car parts store.

It is necessary to pressurize the sparkplug hole with an air hose fitting or make a tool to fit in the spark plug hole to keep the valve pushed up in the closed position.

I have never seen a snap ring type retainer stop unless you are talking about the horizontal snap ring under the valve retainer that is used to keep the valve from dropping into the cylinder if a retainer comes off.
 
I still think your problem is with your loader hydraulic spool valve and crankshaft driven hydraulic pump. There is a good chance that one of the spools is not centering properly in the neutral position.
Loren
 
It's good that you found the broken spring, but I think it's your starter. Put a volt meter on the starter. If it drops below 9 volts, it could be the starter.
 
As Deutz Lover indicates. If the keeper and broken spring are off of the stem, and you see a snap ring, it is probably a device to save a catastrophic engine failure. If the valve dropped into the cylinder there could be engine damage. Leave the clip on there it does not need to come off. The valve should move very easy in and out of the guide with finger tip pressure all the way from the little clip, to up against the seat (maybe 1/2inch). If it will not move easily, something is way wrong. It might have dropped the head off of that valve. If it moves easily, and all seems well, disconnect the battery, then stuff a foot of cotton cloths line rope (the thick kind) into the spark plug hole leaving a few inches sticking out will allow you to move the piston against the rope holding the valve up in the combustion chamber so you can put the keeper on with a valve spring compressor. Do not compress the rope with the starter, you will break something. Buy a manual to assess what you must replace. You may have lost the keepers down the engine pushrod holes already. Jim
 
J.Nicholson. That is a neat idea to use the thick cotton clothes line, stuffing it in and then raising the piston. I think that is a lot easier to fabricate than the metal one I used.
 
I use compressed air through the plug hole with an adapter to hold the plug up.

That will also tell if the valve is sealing. If it whistles air out the exhaust, the head will have to come off anyway.

But a broken valve spring won't cause slow cranking unless the cylinder is damaged.
 
The only time the voltage drops below 9v is when the engine comes to a complete stop while cranking. Otherwise it's 9.7v.
 
The parts book I have shows a split keeper but the tractor appears to have a snap ring like this.
cvphoto43260.jpg
 
I haven't gotten that far yet. No telling how long it's been like that. I thought I would replace the spring and run it for a while and see what happens. I know it's putting some pressure on the valve.
 
The keeper and valve spring is still in place. It's just the spring had broken and is still putting pressure on the valve to close. Just not as much as it should.

I don't believe I've lost any parts. That valve except for the broken spring looks just like all the rest.

The parts book I have doesn't show a snap ring. It shows a split keeper holding the cap but I can't see any trace of those on the tractor. All you can see on the valves is the snap ring.

I've got the piston rotated in the up position so the valve wouldn't fall very far.

I got to wondering about how to compress the new spring. I saw a video where a guy put zip ties on the spring and compressed it in a vice and tightened the zip ties as he went. I have yet to determine how much pressure is left in the broken spring.
 
For it to be a split keeper it would have to be two pieces and it's not. Unless I remove it from the valve I can's say for sure it's snap ring but from what I can see of it it sure looks like one.
 
I just saw his later reply about snap ring. A machine shop may have refurbished the head with automotive valves,springs and rotors. Not an uncommon practice. The type of snap ring he showed would be locked into the groove in the valve stem when the relief in the rotor slides up over it. It would require the same technique as keepers to remove it. -------------------Loren
 
This is as good a picture as I can get this evening. It's about 200% humidity and the lens was fogging over faster than I could wipe it off.

The ring shown going around the valve is showing the only cut on it.
cvphoto43261.jpg
 
I am a bit leary of field expediencies like this whether Bubba or a machine shop. They may not have been able to acquire oem type keepers and I do not know how interchangeable they are. I would think there should only be a small number of different types or sizes. Maybe they just cheaped out.

Field expediencies are ok. But they should not be used where it becomes difficult to remove the repair or in a place that is inaccessible. The ring does not have a substantial bearing surface and might be liable to fracture or deformation.
 
Believe it, that snap ring is actually not what it appears. They often rotate to one side and appear to be one thing when they are really 2 wedge like segments. Your parts book is correct. Use the rope trick I discussed below to hold the valve closed from below. DO disconnect the battery!!!
The illustrated spring compressor, or a lever type that works under the rocker arm is needed. With the rocker moved to the left (in your pic) and the push rod removed, access is fine to push down on the outer part of the retainer freeing the keeper. Putting it back together is only a little tougher in that the spring is now full strength. Jim
 
Rotate it 180 and use carb clean on it. It will be there. An ice pic might separate the two pieces. If it was a ring, it would hold nothing as the inner side of the "ring" is visible and not interlocked with the stem. Jim
 
I agree with others, think it is the keeper and not a snap ring.

My dad welded a male air plug onto a spark plug to to keep air on the cylinder.

I probably have a valve spring compressor around here for one, where are you located?
 
That is NOT a snap ring. It is most certainly TWO wedge shaped semicircular pieces. That is just what they look like. Take it from experience. I have worked on literally THOUSANDS of engines and that is just what a pair of keepers looks like. Once you compress the spring, you will see plainly that it is not a snap ring.
 
(quoted from post at 15:40:04 11/29/19) I had a thread a couple days ago about my case 210B tractor how the starter was struggling to turn the engine over. I replaced the battery and ran an auxiliary ground wire to the starter. I made sure there was no gas or water in the cylinders and it still struggled.

I may have found the issue. Someone suggested I might have a stuck valve so I took the valve cover off, removed a spark plug and cranked the engine to see if all the valves were functioning. They were but I noticed one of the exhaust valves had a broken spring.

I've got a replacement spring ordered. Now I have to figure out how to get the snap ring off the valve. There is only about a sixteenth gap between the ends of the ring.
Click to expand...


Oh, my gosh, don't make this any more complicated than it needs to be!

As another poster replied, using an adapter in the spark plug hole, apply compressed air to hold the valve closed, then choose from a variety of tools to compress the spring, then remove the two "valve keepers", and install the new spring, and reverse the "compress the spring and install the 2 keepers" process.

You won't be dealing with a one piece wire "snap ring", so put that out of your mind and move on to dealing with "valve keepers" that have been in common use for over a hundred years.
 
This is the first time I've had the valve cover off of this tractor. The ring, I've scraped it with a scratch awl and had all the appearance of being one piece. When I get the new spring I will try to get it all apart.
 
Stephen, I have never done this, but watched my dad several time, even though that was 50 years ago.

Put air on the cylinder
take a valve spring compressor that is made for this, compress the spring
rap on the corner of the cap. it should loosen
take apart
replace spring
reverse procedure

Comments are welcome.
 
Stephen,

Great close-up.

Perhaps it is my imagination, but I think I can see faint evidence of a departure line 180 degrees from the obvious opening.

As you pointed out, the answer will become apparent when you use a valve spring compressor on the valve so for now any arguments are purely academic.
 
Bring piston to TDC. Add air pressure with leakdown tester. I took a 3/4 pipe, notched it on 2 sides so I could get needle nose pliers to keepers. Gave pipe a sharp wack with hammer. Then pushed down on pipe to compress spring and remove keepers.

You may be able to get a spring compressor.
George
 
Opps,

I committed a fox paw. I should have said separation line instead of departure line. Departure line was not applicable.
 
Hello Stephen Newell,

That is the gap between the 2 keepers. If you look 180* from that gap, bet you there is no gap. You have the 1/4 in that fits the plug. Once you get air pressure to the cylinder, and you compress the spring with the tool, you will see the 2 halves that lock the valve in,

Guido.
 
Since the picture was taken I tried to drive a scratch awl in between at 180 degrees and didn't do anything. I did clean a couple other valves and those were two pieces. At the moment I'm ill-equipped to try
to remove the spring. I will either have to buy or make a spring compressor.
 
.You wouldn't even need a hose on a tractor, Just knock the guts out of a spark plug and adapt an air hose nipple and there's two compressors that ought to work.
cvphoto43276.jpg


cvphoto43277.jpg


cvphoto43278.jpg
 
Sounds like your starter might be good. The case guy may be right about the hydraulic pump, but I wouldn't think that would cause it to come to a sudden stop, like you said. When it comes to a sudden stop, is one of the positions at top dead center? Maybe something is inside one of the cylinders.
 

If one piece is the valve train is broken , the rest may not be far behind . Maybe less time and $$$ in the long term to pull the head and freshen everything up .
Has this engine ever had a high rpm run away ?
 
Not possible it was an exact match as spark plugs have been metric thread since like the 1930's.
 
Make sure you put the piston at TDC or else if the valve comes off seat it can drop too far down in the cyl. when trying to get the keepers off. I've never tried it for valve spring removal but another method that should work could be to feed a long piece of small rope into cyl. and make sure you leave an end to hold onto for removal. Then raise the piston up and that should hold a valve in place even one that would not hold air pressure. I have used the rope method to hold engines from turning when trying to remove flywheels or clutches from small engines.
 
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