- Thread starter Bob
- Start date
ditchwitch
Well-known Member
Whats wrong with using a generator to power your house during a power outage. I mean just the house not putting power on the lines coming into the house off the road. I must be missing something if its bad.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
The disconnect must be positive and absolute prior to any generator or power supply connection is made. The danger to others on the same transformer, and beyond is real and unacceptable. A Generator interlock switch is to be found from $75 to $150 that meet the needs and make the connection simple. killing a service technician is criminal. Ji
I have to ask Bob, my main box has a Main or Master switch which disconnects me from the Power Line. I have only tested it once to see if I could run the well. I plug into my garage welder outlet with the generator, and of course make sure the Main switch is open. Is there an issue or safety issue with that I am missing?
Paul
Paul
Jaden
Member
- Location
- Eastern Nebraska
The proper method is through a Transfer Switch. It allows the buildings to be connected to the power line or a generator, but never both. That makes sure no one forgets to disconnect the right breakers, switches, etc.
"Is there an issue or safety issue with that I am missing?"
What's the issue? Human error.
Two examples,
If you have a generator and the appropriate cord ready to go, and in an outage hook 'em up without remembering to flip the main breaker "OFF", you will be backfeeding. People can and do forget details when excited.
Or, you have the main breaker "OFF" and someone comes along and unknowing/unthinking flips it on, you are backfeeding.
A transfer switch or an interlock on the breaker panel prevents this, and allows connection to one power source or the other, NEVER both. No CHANCE of backfeeding.
https://www.amazon.com/SD-200A-Generator-Interlock-Homeline-outdoor/dp/B014EDF6MA
ONE example of a breaker panel interlock kit, $59.95.
There's still can be an issue with kits like this, in that if the panel cover has been removed for any reason, the interlock feature is lost.
NOT so with a properly installed transfer switch.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
99% of the time you can get by pulling the main fuses or tripping the main breaker and plugging the generator into the welder outlet. There might be that one time when you are tired, frustrated and in a bad mood and you forget to pull the fuse or breaker before you fire up the generator. Or you are gone and a neighbor hooks up the generator for your wife who is at home without taking safety precautions. A proper disconnect eliminates the chance of a mistake happening. The chance of killing a line man with a wife and kids at home or burning his hands off is too great.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
Nothing is wrong with it. As long as you are disconnected from the service line.By a proper transfer switch. Because too many times people forget and turn the main breaker on. While the generator is still running. Which will in an instant blow out the generator.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
Back feeding is stupid and dangerous. If you can not do it with a proper transfer switch. Don't do it. I have seen too many times the results. Of what happens when someone forgets. If you are caught using a cord by the insurance company. When something goes
wrong. They can cancel your insurance. You could be held liable for any damage you do.
I was involved as a consultant on a case here in Texas. We found the cord in what was left of the house. Insurance man said insurance canceled. By the time the bill came in for all the damage done. It was just over a million dollars. The man had to sell his company and a few more things to pay for it. I don't trust interlock kits. I have seen them fail.
wrong. They can cancel your insurance. You could be held liable for any damage you do.
I was involved as a consultant on a case here in Texas. We found the cord in what was left of the house. Insurance man said insurance canceled. By the time the bill came in for all the damage done. It was just over a million dollars. The man had to sell his company and a few more things to pay for it. I don't trust interlock kits. I have seen them fail.
Indiana Ken
Well-known Member
Bob, I understand if you feed power into the grid a lineman etc. can get hurt. I understand how easy it is to forget to do something. I do it from time to time with my coffee maker - forget to empty the carafe which means coffee over flows and floods the counter.
My question is; how can you back feed the grid with a small generator and an extension cord? When the power goes off I leave my breaker on and I suspect everyone else without a generator does likewise. It seems like your little generator would be powering all the neighbors houses...? Just trying to understand what is actually powered.
Ken, when the power goes out in a storm and crews come to restore it, how do you know how near the last break is to your house, and how many other houses you might be trying to power?
Perhaps none.
And the HV line from you transformer to the break will be at 7200 Volts (or more).
Lineman are trained to be careful and often "ground out" lines the are working on, but the potential to hurt someone exists.
That's why there are codes and regulations against using a standby generator without a transfer switch.
But codes and laws are made to be broken, right?
I worked as a lineman for 32 years and it scares the be heck out of me when I hear guys talking about hooking up a generator to back feed their house and not know the risk. I know we were always supposed to ground the lines before working on them, there are sometimes lines on the ground that can't be seen that can be a killer to lineman or the public.
Dave
Dave
Tom from IL
Member
I watched the lineman for our local electric co-op one time as he connected a large jumper cable between the hv "hot" and the neutral. He said "I may burn up somebody's generator, but they ain't gonna get me!"
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
Problem is cutting the main only breaks the two 120 volt lines coming in. The neutral that carries voltage back to the transformer is still hooked up and carrying current from the generator to the transformer.
I did mine differently. I installed a twist lock generator plug in on the basement wall. Panel box inside with circuit breakers hard wired to two 20 amp recepticals for the freezer and refrigerator. I use a power strip surge protector for the refrigerator, TV,etc. I am planning on running another line and add a plug for the well pump. The generator isn't tied into the grid in any way.
I did mine differently. I installed a twist lock generator plug in on the basement wall. Panel box inside with circuit breakers hard wired to two 20 amp recepticals for the freezer and refrigerator. I use a power strip surge protector for the refrigerator, TV,etc. I am planning on running another line and add a plug for the well pump. The generator isn't tied into the grid in any way.
muleboss
Member
- Location
- Burlington, Kansas
Dang Bob, you kind of just jumped out there bashing everyone without having all the facts. How do you know they are not doing it the correct way.
And by the way I used to be a lineman so I know the dangers, but give people a chance before bashing.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
VicS and Modirt were the two dangers to society on the first post .
Sad thing is that no matter who or how many times back feeding is expiate dot be dangerous. The more likely they are to backed, just to prove that they can. Nor do they understand electricity or the law to comprehend how dangerous they are.
Sad thing is that no matter who or how many times back feeding is expiate dot be dangerous. The more likely they are to backed, just to prove that they can. Nor do they understand electricity or the law to comprehend how dangerous they are.
I used a generator to feed my house for years. It ready is simple just turn the main off and no one is going to be hurt. 15 years ago or so I found an interlock plate for the fuse box. Makes it all Legal now.
Five years ago or so I installed a automatic backup generator at the farm. Fully automatic switch over setup. Onan system too not China stuff. Guess what???? I caught it not cutting off the service line before it energized the farm circuit. Stuck contact points. I now have a light on the public utility side. You can tell at a glance what system is on or off.
Five years ago or so I installed a automatic backup generator at the farm. Fully automatic switch over setup. Onan system too not China stuff. Guess what???? I caught it not cutting off the service line before it energized the farm circuit. Stuck contact points. I now have a light on the public utility side. You can tell at a glance what system is on or off.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
That's what I did at my last house,I put a heavy cord on the furnace and plugged it in, so I could plug it into a cord from the generator. That and the coffee pot, what else do you need for a short outage?
I use a check list, with three buildings I have to do allot of breaker flipping in order to not overload the generator. The way the elect is distributed between the buildings makes it really difficult to install a lockout or transfer switch.
I would bet backfeeds happen because the guy is an idiot. Probably the same guy that runs the generator in his attached garage or worse yet in the house.
I would bet backfeeds happen because the guy is an idiot. Probably the same guy that runs the generator in his attached garage or worse yet in the house.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Well, to some people there is NO "correct way" or safe way to backfeed a house.
Even so, I don't recall seeing the use of the word "everyone." There are a LOT of people out there who insist that they're perfect and they'll never make a mistake so there's no need for an interlock. There are a LOT of people who don't even know they're supposed to disconnect the main breaker for that matter. He may be simply addressing these people.
Either way, it's a statement of opinion and last I checked, he's entitled to it.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Home many electrical services/electrical meters supplying the buildings ? What size of generator ?
Why not use this or a similar transfer panel . Any size of generator can be connected . https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-200-Amp-Outdoor-Transfer-Panel-TWB2006DR/202216488
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Home many electrical services/electrical meters supplying the buildings ? What size of generator ?
Why not use this or a similar transfer panel . Any size of generator can be connected . https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-200-Amp-Outdoor-Transfer-Panel-TWB2006DR/202216488
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR
Nobody is entitled to an opinion that would put others (especially linemen) at risk.
Humans innovate because humans make mistakes. Only safe way to power is a system where mains are physically disconnected before generator power is applied. One switch does both. Only then does the 'innovative human' not threaten others.
If a generator can be connected to AC mains for any reason, well the consequences are just too great (bad) for that 'solution' to exist. Only way a generator can connect is by the same function / switch /feature that also disconnects all wires to mains. That is the only legitimate opinion because mistakes by humans are so routine and the consequences are so bad. That is the only opinion one is entitled to. Another's safety and life trumps any opinion.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
Yes and I have seen the damage done. Buy those experts that never make mistakes.
Dangers to society? In my case, I would never knowingly setup a system that would allow a generator to backfeed into a utility line. So by not doing my homework, I might wind up as a gonnabe, but never a wannabe. There is a difference between ignorant (aka, uninformed) and stupid. There are the arrogant stupids, but I'm not one of them.
And in the case of VicS, he did mention that he had tripped both his main at the meter and his main on the service panel. Technically, that would seem to solve the backfeed issue, provided you actually do it. But folks are human and that means prone to error and considering what is at stake, I can now see the need for a system that takes error out of it. In theory at least.
That solves the issue of justification or need for one. What I lacked (past tense) was the understanding of how one worked. I've spent the past 12 hours getting up to speed and now have a pretty good feel for some of them. Curious, however, that what I now know, I didn't learn here. This thread alone has about 10 to 12 references to "transfer boxes" or "transfer switches", yet none of them explain how they work.
Best explanation I've found so far is to follow along with all 6 parts of this video series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTqjwt6WJ7o
Seeing how these work raises more questions in my mind, since all of them seem to involve some type of switch to isolate utility power from generator power. The one in the videos even left the mains hot for when the power comes back on.
If starting from scratch, it would seem the safest option of all would be to create parallel circuits with side by side plugs for the appliances you want to run.
Jeremy in DE
Member
I had the same question I think you are asking. Just curious about what all is energized when someone backfeeds without a proper disconnect. Just the lines? Neighboring houses?
When power goes out at my house I leave everything "on" until the power is restored. If a neighbor backfeeds will that harm/energize my house? Should I flip my main breaker just to protect myself? (But how do I know when power comes back?)
Just to clarify: I do not even own a generator. When the power goes out the place goes dark. I have propane heat that doesn't require electricity, and a way to easily hook up the hand pump for water in the laundry room. A propane stove to cook on. Books to read by oil lamps. So I do not and cannot backfeed, just wondering how it all works.
Someone mentioned this to me a few weeks back. Claimed that cutting the mains still allowed generator power to backfeed through the neutral bar.
So then I see this guy.......who by the way isn't some piker......that is a Reliance Control video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKruj9BpZM8
Hasn't he just done the same thing?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Maybe remotely possible if there was problems if there were no ground bond anywhere to the neutral . It is a “ what if” that is too small of a possibility to worry about.
The topic was raised one time with a “what if” question and has inadvertently grown into an “ issue”.
The transfer switch for a floating neutral generator does not switch the neutral . The transfer switch for a bonded neutral generator is supposed to switch the neutral .
The reason being is to avoid flowing neutral current through the ground system .
So if the mains are thrown in a properly wired entrance box, is there any danger of backfeeding or not? Electricity is magic for me, but I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't see the difference between a transfer switch and throwing the mains other than the lock out features. What am I missing?
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Whatever is connected is energized. Depends on how much damage the storm did to the lines.
Electricity doesn't flow just one way. It can go "in" any hole and come "out" any hole. That's how backfeeding works. Instead of the electricity coming in through those wires from the road, it is coming in through one of the electrical sockets in your house, courtesy of a generator and a "suicide cord," which is an extension cord with two male pronged ends.
The problem is that unless you disconnect them, the wires from the road become a new "out" hole. They go to a transformer which normally reduces the voltage from the overhead wires down to the 240V for your house. When those wires from your house become the new "out" hole, the transformer works in reverse, changing the household voltage back to high overhead wire voltage.
It only takes a fraction of an Amp to kill someone. Our bodies have very high resistance which is why people often survive contact with household voltage. However, the voltage on those overhead wires is so high that even with a wimpy little generator, that fraction of an Amp can flow through a human body to kill a person.
Ideally there are enough other transformers and houses connected to the lines to overload a backfeeding generator and shut it down, but there are circumstances where there isn't any other load on the wires, leaving them live and deadly while the backfeeder sits in their house watching TV, not realizing there's a problem.
We had an outage last year in my neighborhood, where I live there are lots of houses, with several connected to each transformer. Someone up the street was backfeeding their house with a generator. I heard the BANG when the linesmen grounded out the line. So even though there should have been several houses killing that generator, it was working just fine.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Every week in my pay envelope came a safety brochure .Every week it was about a backfeed and a dead lineman.
timcasbolt
Well-known Member
From a practical standpoint, sending power up the pole will immediately result in a stalled engine on the generator. However, there will be a nasty jolt (possibly lethal) before the engine quits.
I agree, you don't want the mains on if you're backfeeding a genny for your place. Near as I can tell that's what the transfer switches do- open the mains. I'm still trying to figure how backfeeding with the mains open can be a hazard though. an open circuit is open, right?
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
It's open until someone forgets to open it, and that is the A-number-one issue with backfeeding.
A transfer switch is an interlock, one cannot be closed unless the other is open. The simplest example is a double throw knife switch. It is physically impossible to have both mains and generator power connected at the same time because of the design of the knife switch. Automatic transfer switches achieve the same thing with magnetic switches. There are also transfer switches that allow you to power certain circuits in your house from the generator by flipping switches on the transfer panel. These are wired inline with the regular breakers you choose, and have double-throw switches on each circuit.
There are interlock devices you can put on your circuit breaker panel that connect your main panel breaker with your "backfeed" breaker so that both cannot be on at the same time. It will be some sort of "tug of war" mechanism or "see saw" mechanism.
I have read that in the case of some makes and models of breakers, though, that open isn't really open. Current can't flow in from the mains, but for some reason by the design of the breaker, current can flow OUT. So even if your breaker switch shows OFF, you're still energizing the line. This is just what I've read in threads like this, so it may or may not be true.
In my quest for a NEC approved device to prevent backfeeding the lines, I am now up to at least 4 different ways to skin this cat....ranging from simple to complex.
Lets start with simple.......the sliding interlock kit, which BTW, answers the question that if you kill the mains, is it safe? It is.....this just makes sure you do it as you can't forget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJdzHnhGOPE
and good ol boy's rendition of the same......key here is he kills ALL breakers, then only turns on the ones he wants to use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-RPJ3qOKPs
That system would not work with my current service panel, which is full to the gills, so no room for the generator breaker. I'd have to get a new replacement panel....plus run the wiring to it from the outside plug for the generator.
But if it works, this is the cheapest and simplest by far.
Next up is one that I'm finding to be recommended by the utility companies themselves........Generlink and Homerun. This is an improvement over the sliding lock as it feeds all branches downstream of the meter. This is the best option I've found for my situation so far. Process of going inside to flip all breakers off remains, then only turn on the one's you want to power up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mQBfHiPJTM
One step up in complexity is the transfer box.......this video pretty much explains how it is setup, including some snazzy graphics to explain it all. More complex and less flexible than the two simpler solutions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz-oHn3KB1Q
And finally, the automatic transfer switches. From simple to complex.....and I imagine, oh so expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AmrnCSRDE
If there is something I've missed, please let me know.
Lets start with simple.......the sliding interlock kit, which BTW, answers the question that if you kill the mains, is it safe? It is.....this just makes sure you do it as you can't forget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJdzHnhGOPE
and good ol boy's rendition of the same......key here is he kills ALL breakers, then only turns on the ones he wants to use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-RPJ3qOKPs
That system would not work with my current service panel, which is full to the gills, so no room for the generator breaker. I'd have to get a new replacement panel....plus run the wiring to it from the outside plug for the generator.
But if it works, this is the cheapest and simplest by far.
Next up is one that I'm finding to be recommended by the utility companies themselves........Generlink and Homerun. This is an improvement over the sliding lock as it feeds all branches downstream of the meter. This is the best option I've found for my situation so far. Process of going inside to flip all breakers off remains, then only turn on the one's you want to power up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mQBfHiPJTM
One step up in complexity is the transfer box.......this video pretty much explains how it is setup, including some snazzy graphics to explain it all. More complex and less flexible than the two simpler solutions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz-oHn3KB1Q
And finally, the automatic transfer switches. From simple to complex.....and I imagine, oh so expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AmrnCSRDE
If there is something I've missed, please let me know.
Exactly. The world's most reliable person will still make a mistake if the hardware makes that mistake possible.
Chief pilot for KLM, having done the same thing reliably how many hundreds of times, still tried to take off when a 747 was in his path in Tenerife. I have never met anyone who is reliable enough to not need a transfer switch or something equivalent.
Furthermore, he must lock out both circuit breakers. He did not do that. Since chance is maybe one in 5,000 that someone else will restore those breakers, then the risk is treated as 100% possible. Respect for human life requires numbers that extreme. Just another reason why his method was a serious threat to human life.
huntingreen2day2
Member
I have seen main breakers that were bad and did not actually break the connection. I changed out a service one time on a house. I had permission on the utility company to pull the meter to do this. When I installed the meter it immediately started turning. I knew the main breaker was off. Wound up having to change the main breaker.
I won't back feed. If you injure a lineman by back feeding your liable. i matched the transfer switch to what Generator can handle.I use a Reliance transfer switch which you don't need to touch main switch. You do everything through transfer switch. With main on I leave a light on in a room that is not run by generator and when bulb comes on I shut transfer switch and generator off. The transfer switch is simple to put in once you decide which breakers your going to use.
My first thought when reading this was it was a valid point, but unless it could be shown that the generator was the cause of the failure, it would not apply here. Otherwise, if the concern is that breakers can go bad, then that invalidates the use of breakers in general. As much of a danger to anyone working inside the panel as it would be to a lineman upstream. And that would also preclude the NEC approved use of the sliding lockout switches.
But that also raises another question I don't know the answer to but I'm sure someone on here does.........in the event of a power failure, the digital meter should go dark. If you are somehow backfeeding when the generator is running will the meter light up and start running backwards? If so, would that not be a good test to double check your transfer switch / lockout system?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Generator shops after blackouts have irate customers returning thier “good for nothing factory defective “ generators after doing this . An unsyncronized paralleling of two sources with different volt, frequency and phase relationship will make bad sounds , smoke and broken parts .
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Grid Tie inverters by design do not function without an external AC reference . Then the grid tie inverter auto synchronizes with the utility .
Jeremy in DE
Member
BarnyardEngineering:
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.
I take it that in theory a neighbor backfeeding could cause some sort of power at my house that might be not ideal for me or my electrical devices, but that normally the load of multiple houses would kill the backfeeding generator.
And the further away that neighbor would be the less likely that his action would impact me.
But it's a different situation entirely for any linemen fixing the lines... Hence this discussion thread.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.
I take it that in theory a neighbor backfeeding could cause some sort of power at my house that might be not ideal for me or my electrical devices, but that normally the load of multiple houses would kill the backfeeding generator.
And the further away that neighbor would be the less likely that his action would impact me.
But it's a different situation entirely for any linemen fixing the lines... Hence this discussion thread.
Thanks again.
Jeremy in DE
Member
Showcrop:
Never heard of such a device before. I learn something new every day.
Any risk to my stuff if I just leave it all alone and let the power come on when it does? (Which is what I've usually done.)
Question B&D.
From looking at the images for the links you posted, it looks like this is basically a "bracket" that fits over the main breaker and one below it, presumably for the generator circuit, so that when you slide it it turns the main off and the generator breaker on. Is this correct?
-Scott
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
That thar be it . Properly installing the correct interlock is a simple low cost upgrade . To have peace of mind , be legal , not blowup your generator and last but not least . Not energizing the utility line .
Bonous is not not limit the power to four, six or eight circuits with those runny-dink generator sub panels.
showcrop
Well-known Member
curious about what all is energized when someone backfeeds without a proper disconnect. Just the lines? Neighboring houses?
"When power goes out at my house I leave everything "on" until the power is restored. If a neighbor backfeeds will that harm/energize my house? Should I flip my main breaker just to protect myself? (But how do I know when power comes back?) "
Jeremy my suggestion about the alert device is in response to your question.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Bigpapa53 I have one of those interlocks. I have the use of all of my circuits. As I pointed out above, if you have a transfer panel installed you will need to call your electrician back after your first extended outage to install another one for those circuits that you have found that you can't get by without.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Paying for the knowledge , knowhow , organization , presentation , production , transportation , licensing and assorted paperwork .
How much does it cost for the material in that little bitty filling the dentist installs ?
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy