Whats no longer ethical?

jon f mn

Well-known Member
So now that the farm is in my name and there is little risk I think I can talk about this. First let me say tho, both deals were either good or great for me and I did very well with both, so this is not a major deal for me, just agrivating. There were a good many problems getting my house sold, most all related to the folks who sold it to me not doing what they should have. There were inspections that weren't done and legal stuff that wasn't done. Now I know 8ts buyer beware, and I didn't do that at purchase because they told me they do this a lot and have the people to do it, and rather than check on them I just trusted them. But when it came time to sell the issues came up. Not only was the stuff done wrong, in cases it wasn't done at all, but they also hadn't paid the bills to do the work on other deals so when we came to get the stuff we had extra trouble because the people wanted the money owed. Those not paying were not too poor to pay, they are rich and thought they could get by. Now when we started the process they knew they had to do it and did start, but then they found out about the great deal we got on the farm and knew we couldn't not sell and complete the deal or we would loose many times more, so they quit paying. Now all these expenses came up to a bit less than $10,000 and they are legally required to pay it, but if we sued them We lost the deal and that was worth more, so they knew they could out last me. I can go after them now, but I'm just glad it's over and I'm in great shape on the farm, so I'll likely let it go. So how do they sleep at night doing that? That money isn't lunch money to them, but means getting a loan to do the repairs on the house rather than having cash for me. I've had plenty of deals go south for what ever reason, but never just chose to not honor my commitments. I couldn't do that and sleep.

In the farm side I was very pleased with the seller as he made a deal and stuck to it, that is til after the closing. Lol. I have never met the man in person, only talked on the phone, so when the deal was done I thought I would call him and tell him thank you. After all the stuff with the other side I was just impressed that he honored his side without any issues. The deal we made was a cash deal with "everything as is". Since the place was below market value we both agreed I would take care of everything that he would ordinarily have to do, like sewer, cleaning up etc. But after I got done thanking him for honoring his side to the letter, the next words out of his mouth were "we filled the propane tank and its about full and we would like you to pay some for that". I was speechless for a bit. If I sell a tractor I might consider the value of the gas in the tank when the price is set, but once the deal is closed and the money paid, how can you ask extra for the gas in the tank? Anyway, after all the issues we had on the sale side and how good I felt about the buy side, I have to say that I was very disappointed in that request. As far as I'm concerned he sold his honor for a couple hundred bucks. Well, that's my rant for today.
 
So did you pay him ? or tell him where to put it ?

My cousin once bought a tractor and paid the guy what he asked, which was pretty much what they seemed to be selling for. He got a call from previous owner a few days later asking for more money ! lol.
 
As for the full tank of propane I would just thank him and say nothing more. If he send a bill laugh and throw it out. Don't loose any sleep.
 
Can't you hook up with a really good real estate lawer? Sounds like that is what you need. You can also lock up any sale those clowns try till they coffup the money.
 
Propane is a shady deal no matter what. I would say no thanks to paying and if was that big of a deal it should have been in the closing documents. Move on and forget it.
 
I am waiting to see what happens with our retirement cabin we bought. Closing is done and we agreed to let her stay until the 24th of this month. She has a contractor friend staying there helping her finish a few things, so will know by end of the month what we got taken on.
 
When mom died. My brother tried to sell her place. Since it was left to him. He found out he couldn't sell it. Because to many things were wrong. Had been wrong since 1941. The survey lines were the main thing. His lawyer told him how to get things corrected. So I would say any time you sell something like land.Make sure all is correct. It could come back to bite you.

Now if he filled the tractor after it was sold. Sorry but that is on him. Unless you want to be a nice guy and pay for it.
 
Up here there are TV ads (several versions) of a couple that buys a house and then finds out some glitch or bad thing that the overlooked. When advised to contact their realtor, they look guilty and admit .... "But we didn't use a realtor" ..... obviously the ad is sponsored by the realtor's association or some such group. Glad things worked out reasonably well for you. You are certainly approaching it with the right frame of mind and attitude.
 
I don't like things like that. In order to divide the property Mom left to my brother and my self. I had to do a lot of improvements, like pave the road in front of the property. Sewer line lateral to the property, water and gas lines. The list kept getting bigger. When a total price was reached that was it. Then out of the blue the city wanted another 18K for sewer reimbursement fee. Like you I wasn't expecting that. All I could do is find another 18K. in order to keep going. This was a few years ago, and it's all done now. I sold a 1/2 acre to just about pay for everything. Glad for you the land is in your name now. Stan
 
Just my little not-so-humble opinion, but...
First thing is that I would tell the guy that as far as the propane goes, there were things that he should have paid for and did not. As such, it should be a fair trade - or even a bit in his favor - for the propane.
Second thing is that I would not let the other clowns get away with cheating you for $10,000. That is a lot of money. You must be pretty wealthy if you can just "let it go." I would sure go after them. Ten grand will buy a lot of toys!
 
Why wasn?t the propane tank gas value in your closing?
It is normal to have the amount of gas in the tank valued prior to closing and added to the closing cost. He is a little late in my opinion. Tell him you bought it as is that should do it.

Vito
 
Propane? I'd ask him, "based on what?" Does that mean if it was empty you could call him up and just ask for a credit card number so you can have it filled? You know what his answer would be ... based on that, I'd tell him no way.
 
Don't feel bad, when I bought my house in 2000 in screw York, I had to pay the sellers however much it was at the time for the oil they just filled into the heating oil tank, before they sold the place. Good luck.
 
Well Jon I guess I am in the minority here. I do not see anything wrong with him asking to be reimbursed for propane he had left in the tank. I never bought a house/farm that had any propane in the tanks that I did not pay for. The fuel was bought by him to heat his house while he lived there. So the simplest thing would have been for him to just call his propane supplier and have the tank pumped out. Instead you got a tank that was pretty full to start out the winter heating season with.

Also in real estate, terms like "as-is: pertain to the house, barns and land. They are real property. The gas in the tank and all his belonging in the house/barns are considered "personal property". So unless the sales contract specifically spells out the propane tank level it would not normally be considered in a real estate contract.

Also think about the one thing you stated in your post: "SOLD BELOW market value". Why would he sell below market value???? Sounds like he is a darn fool then. Houses with usable barns and land sell here before anyone even lists them. So even if he has a 1000 gallon tank and had it clear full you taking 800 gallon. That would be around $900 here. IRC you bought around 50 acres. So your talking about $20 an acre. How much below market did you buy it??? I could make the argument that YOU took advantage of him by buying it under market.

I wonder if he had offers after yours for more money???? Maybe he should have sold it at market value to some one else???

Not trying to start an argument or run anyone down. I would have remembered I got a good buy on a farm I really wanted and wrote him a check for the propane right then.

P.S. On the house you sold. I would pay more than the $10K to get my money out of the people that did not live up to there end of the last deal. People can only do what you let them get away with.
 
On the propane WHO actually owns the tank? If it was furnished by his propane company and you want to go with a different company the tank will have to be removed and to do that they have to pump it out empty and you are charged a fee for pumping it out. If it is a buried tank then you will own it. If abouve groundlikely the propane companys own it and it is not his to let go in sale of the farm. First thing to do is find out who owns the tank and if it is supplier owned then you will have to either have them tank and what fuel is in it or negociat a new agrement with the propane supplier. But not doing this could end up being a anouther thousand dollar supprises.
 
J came across the place kinda accidentally, this guy bought it for an investment several years back. He had tried to sell it with no success at least twice and had rented it out and got burned a couple times. When it was for sale we looked at buying it then, but it was out of our budget. Then this spring we were going to buy a small piece of land either with a shed or build one for all my stuff. But we didn't find anything good. Then we decided maybe we would sell our house and buy a small place. We almost bought a 20 acre place that wasn't near this nice. Then I was driving by this place and saw it empty, so I looked the guy up and called and asked if he was interested in selling as it was not listed, just empty. He said yes and to make an offer. I told him I figured it to be worth more than our budget, but asked if he would split it and sell the place and some acres. He asked what my budget was and I told him. He said he would call me back. He called back within the hour and said he would sell it for my budget. I was shocked because I knew it was worth a lot more than that even as is. But on top of the issues with this land, he was also in the process of selling his major business and didn't want to deal with it anymore. So all that added together is why he offered it to me for less than value. And if he had been a retired farmer for who a couple hundred would make a difference I wouldn't have been shocked, but this guy just sold the biggest nursury/garden center in the metro area to a hospital to build on, so I'm not seeing the value in a couple hundred bucks for him.
 
Think I'd of said to him that's not the brand of propane I normally use so if you want it just come and get it.(LOL)BTW Honor and real estate deal rarely belong in the same sentence.
 
Jon one thing to consider is it a leased tank and did they pay bill,if they did not gas company still owns gas.If it gets to sticky tell the prior owners to come get tank and gas and get your own tank set and be done.Scott
 
Did you get the papers for the tank or just going on their word? You need where the tank was bough, and when along with identification numbers on tank. If you do not have all that then even if told by farm seller it was owned by him I would not trust his word. Without those papers it is like buying a car without a title and trying to get plates and insurance for it. The car might be stolen and the propane company could think the same way.
 
Jon the fellows that have made their own BIG money watch every dime they can.

Sorry if I came across as sharp before. Lots of stuff going on this week. Tired and grumpy. LOL

Had 7 chopper boxes get stuck today. Even pulling them with JD 8330 MFWD tractors.

I think you have a wonderful place there. You can easily makes yourself a nice shop to use your fabricating skills more. Never know it is the same place in ten years.
 
Very little real estate experience but was in on the deal when we sold our church parsonage through a realtor. The amount of fuel oil in the tank was an item he brought up. realtor said the buyer should pay for it. They were buying it on a shoestring and had no more money so we just let them have it. we also got the house back after about 3 years.
 
No offense taken on my part, this rant likely came from being tired from all the work. Lol. And it's hard to tell a complete story here without droning on and on, and without the back story sometimes things don't make sense.
 
Sorry Jon, but we can't answer that for you. You will have to do what YOU feel is right and what you can live with cause you will think about what you should and could have done a lot over the years. I'm glad you got the farm and I know you will enjoy it for years to come so don't let a few dollars eat at you. Just my thoughts, Keith
 

First, it is not about how other people treated you, it is more about you and this person.

Two, you are the one who decided to call the man and thank him. Now you are withholding your "thank you" over $200.....?

Three, in my humble opinion it would not be ethical if you felt a thank you was in order and then withhold it over $200.
 
We were in the exact same position when we bought our current place.

Everything signed and paid then the previous owner brought up the topic of the diesel, gas,and propane in the tanks.

At first much like yourself it rubbed me the wrong way until I got to thinking about it.

It was the middle of the winter when we moved in and he could have left us with a near empty tank, just one more hassle to deal with while trying to unpack.
No it was not mentioned in the contract but at the same time it was not like I was expecting to get the place with full tanks either.
Had he been asking us to pay for 50 gallons or some other small amount I would have told him to shove it but in reality he was doing us a favor by having the place turn key move in ready.

He even left his phone line hooked up and a phone in the house for us to use until we had time to get it transferred to our name.
 
When I purchased my first house, the realtor had an inspection done. Couple years later, I found out the inspector was the handyman for the property owner who was a land lord. Also found out the realtor was his mistress. Didn't do anything about it. Maybe should have.

Second house we attempted to buy we had a move in and rent to close option since we'd rented our first home. moved in on Saturday, was to close on Tuesday. Arrived at closing and learned there had not been a well inspection. County came out, did the inspection same day... and it failed. treated, retested, failed three times. We'd been drinking the water over the weekend, and too late, had sick kids. Giardia is heck on children.
When we terminated the deal we had to move and fast. Then the owner came back and sued us for damages. well, he snapped a bunch of pictures on the day we moved to show ruts in the yard, a broken light etc. when he came to court he also had a stack he must have taken later to show we didn't take care of the lawn. Problem was the photos over lapped, and after we examined them, I showed the Judge how certain photos were of the same area. The judge awarded him about 1/3 of what we had counter offered, and payment was made by the escrow company. Then he refused to sign acknowledging he'd been paid. made the judge even madder.

I would sat go after the people who did not perform their agreed on work. Conduct like that tends to anger judges, and they are sometimes moved to make examples of such wayward conduct.
 
Well, we're all different so I can only say how I would handle it. When it comes to a business transaction, to me, it only matters what is fair, not the financial position of either party. Knowing I got a good fair or more than fair deal, I would just settle to the other party's satisfaction, move on and forget the whole deal. Otherwise, it would always be a "thorn" that would irritate me, kind of a cloud over what should be a happy transaction.
 
This is exactly what my plan is, guess I just needed to vent out of frustration and being tired from all the work and stress of the last month or so. But I always intended to pay for the propane, I was just taken aback that he would bring it up after closing. As for the other money, it would likely cost more to get it than it is worth, I just want to put it behind me and enjoy my new place.
 
Even if it cost 9K to get 10K back, I'd still do it.

Talk to our lawyer, first visit should be free. He'll know what the cost would be.
 
Even if it cost 9K to get 10K back, I'd still do it.

Talk to your lawyer, first visit should be free. He'll know what the cost would be.
 
Well, Jon, in a Perfect World, we wouldn't even need the contracts or lawyers. But we have them for a reason. In my experience, nearly everything in a real estate deal is spelled out in writing. The folks who are not upholding their agreed-to items on your sale will only follow through if their obligation is in writing. If it is, it should cost little for a judge to order them to do so. If their business revolves around real estate transactions, they will not want the bad reputation. If it is not written, you have almost no chance to collect, so do not bother.

As to your purchase, did you use representation? We used only a lawyer to sell out first house, no realtor. Had he missed an item like propane, I would have recourse against him. If you used a realtor or lawyer you should have some room to work with. If not, and it is not in writing, he is in a rough position to demand anything. I personally would first verify who owns the tank and the propane, and just exactly how much is in the tank. I then would get estimates for the cost of pumping the gas out, and offer him something around the difference. If you feel you flat out stole the place, just pay him the whole amount and forget it.
 

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