Firearms caliber question.

So looking at a new revolver. I am looking the ballistics charts. My question is in "the real world" what is more important FPS velocity or Ft-LBS of energy. I'm looking at a couple calibers which are a small bullet moving fast and a couple of bigger calibers which are slow moving. Looking at for example a . 38 spl which is a 125 Gr bullet but only has 225ft-lbs but a .22 WMR is a 40Gr bullet and has 324ft-lbs. But in the real world what is going to have more knock down?
 
Have heard many times that the 22 mag. is not the most acurate round.
I have a Winchester leaver action in that caliber. Wouldn't trust it
beyond 125yds. Handgun of course is a whole nother story. Ask us with
what you want to do. Give us a bit more to play with.
 
There's no "right" answer, Sodbuster, but a lot of beer has been consumed over the years while "discussing" the topic, and there's no shortage of people with absolutely no idea what they're talking about who will loudly declaim their version of reality to the exclusion of all others--kinda like polly ticks! Bullet weight, bullet construction, velocity, bullet frontal area, plus of course accuracy (everything else is meaningless if you don't hit where you need to) and several other factors all play a role in terminal performance. As Jeffcat aaid, perhaps a better way of going about it is to tell us what your planning to do with the revolver and use that as a basis for what might be a good choice.
 
It is a combination of bullet mass and velocity. The applied force goes up proportionally with mass but up with the square with velocity. Meaning if the bullet is twice as heavy it will only hit twice as hard. If it is going twice as fast then it will hit four times as hard.

Other things to consider. Distance to target and what your wanting to shot.

The further away the more important mass is. The old Buffalo guns had low velocity but huge bullet mass. So they still hit hard at long distances.

With closer targets then velocity is more important as it will not have dissipated as much. Example would be a .38 when compared to a .357 . They both have bullet weights that are close but the .357 hits much harder because of its higher velocity.
 
You are going to get a lot of replies, but the larger hole and higher ftlbs are what you want. You need to be able to disable the opponent quickly. To do that with the 22 magnum you will need to hit specific areas, plus it takes a fairly long barrel for the 22mag to achieve the speed you specified.
 
I have a .22WMR right now. Looking for something bigger. I was leaning towards a .38spl but looking at the charts threw me for a loop. Bigger slug but less energy? Looking for a bump in the night gun. Mostly for four legged bad guys .38spl could shoot rat shot. But hard on the barrel newer stuff is in a capsule supposed to be better.
 
The .38 special is the most popular (measured by number of guns sold) centerfire revolver round, and it's hard to go wrong with it. Good, modern guns will usually be +P capable, which gives a useful bump in performance over normal-pressure .38 Specials, made to be safe in guns that could well date from the late 18th century when the cartridge was new. One thing to consider with a .38 special is barrel length. A 4" barrel will often give a considerable velocity boost over the standard 2" or thereabouts "snubby", and a longer sight radius, often with better sights to boot. With that said, think about stepping up to a .357 magnum--it gives a considerable power boost in a gun that's essentially the same size, and maintains the ability to shoot .38 specials. A 4"-barreled .357 is probably as close to a "universal" handgun as you're apt to find, with ammo choices from plinkers to self-defense to small and even large game hunting at reasonable ranges, all in a package that's relatively easy to carry or even conceal if necessary.
 
I recommend you buy a handgun that you
like, understand how it works, feel
confident with it, can afford to practice
with it, has sufficient stopping power. I
carry a .380 all day, every day. People say
"That's not enough gun". I say "OK, stand
there and let me shoot you". They get the
point. In the dark, muzzle blast is muzzle
blast. No one is going to stand there and
question the caliber when he is being hit
in the chest. Remember, the goal is not to
kill the person, but to stop the threat.
Some people like revolvers. Fine. Buy a
.357, practice with .38's, carry .357's.
Some people like 9mm. Fine gun. Practice
and carry it.
I'm in agreement that a short barrelled gun
will not give you the full FPS on the fast
stuff.
Another consideration is it is always a
good idea to carry common self defense ammo
in case you have to use it and explain it
to a jury.
 
For sidearms, mine are all revolvers. The smallest is 6" barrel .22 long that has a cylinder that can be swapped out to .22 Mag. The largest that I have are three .500 Mags from 4" to 8-3/8" barrels. Back in the mid-80's I had a cousin murdered after being shot in the head three or so times with a .22 long so a .22 long can most definitely be lethal.

A couple of years ago I considered purchasing my first and only pistol, a .22 TCM manufactured by a company called Rock Island Armory. The model that I was looking to purchase two of, one to fire and one to collect came with two swappable barrels that are .22 TCM and 9mm. The thing about the .22 TCM is that the rounds are .223/.556 about an inch shorter than a typical round. Has an incredible velocity for a pistol.

This is a tractor forum and I don't want to make trouble or get poofed, but if you're looking for a good revolver you might want to consider a .460 Mag. They will fire .460 Mag and .454 Casull at about $2.50 to $3.00 per round, but will also fire .45 Long Colt for much cheaper plinking.

Good luck and always, always operate your farm equipment safely. Never get tooooooo comfortable around any of it so that you don't get bit by any of it.

Mark
 
Bullet weight and fps are both important. A 22 you could shoot someone several times before stopping them where a 45 would be more likely to lift them off their feet. The police and military now mostly use 9mm so that would be a pretty mid-range. Besides the 9mm ammo is cheaper.
 
A good comparison is a NATO 9mm and a 1911 .45. The 9mm is a smaller round with a higher velocity than the .45. However, feedback I get from fellow Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan is--if you shoot someone with a 9mm, all you do is pizz him off. Nail him with the good old .45 and he's down.

Why? A smaller round moving at a higher velocity can simply penetrate and exit an enemy's body doing minimal damage. The larger round moving slower will create all sorts of mayhem and lodge in the middle of the body, continuing to be problematic.

That's why, several years ago, the Corps said to heck with NATO's 9mm and ordered over $20 million worth of .45's.

From a practical standpoint, several years ago I had to put down a couple of stray dogs. I hadn't much choice or much time. They were terrorizing our neighbor's kids. I grabbed the first thing handy, a 9mm auto. It dang near didn't get the job done. It took at least two vital organ shots and one direct head shot on each dog to put it down. I went through two magazines just putting two dogs down at short range. I'm sure I'd have gotten the job done a lot faster it I'd had the time to get my 1911A .45 out. Or my .44 Mag for that matter.
 
I carry a .380 ACP. Light weight,easy to carry.Semi auto. Like prefer revolvers but IMHO,for everyday they are too heavy and cumbersome. Everybody's preference is different.Buy whatever feels good in your hand,go with your gut.
 
(quoted from post at 20:06:22 08/12/18) I recommend you buy a handgun that you
like, understand how it works, feel
confident with it, can afford to practice
with it, has sufficient stopping power. I
carry a .380 all day, every day. People say
"That's not enough gun". I say "OK, stand
there and let me shoot you". They get the
point. In the dark, muzzle blast is muzzle
blast. No one is going to stand there and
question the caliber when he is being hit
in the chest. Remember, the goal is not to
kill the person, but to stop the threat.
Some people like revolvers. Fine. Buy a
.357, practice with .38's, carry .357's.
Some people like 9mm. Fine gun. Practice
and carry it.
I'm in agreement that a short barrelled gun
will not give you the full FPS on the fast
stuff.
Another consideration is it is always a
good idea to carry common self defense ammo
in case you have to use it and explain it
to a jury.

+1
Get one you're comfortable with. Shot placement is more important than caliber size, imo
 
My carry pistol is a simple 22LR semi auto. Years ago I shoot a 380 at a 55 gal drum and the rounds bounced off but a 22LR round went in one side and out the other. What I would prefer to carry but it is to big is my 44mag but it is to hard to hide unless it is winter time. But that 44mag I have taken a deer out to around 60 yards one shot.
 
"[b:654c4848f0][i:654c4848f0]<font color="#6699ff">But in the real world what is going to have more knock down?[/i:654c4848f0][/b:654c4848f0]</font>"

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Thing is with a 22 you can hit a guy in the arm and have it come out who knows where. A 22 round will crawl on a bone and then jump to the next bone and come out most any place.
 
If your thinking 38 special go with a 357mag and you can then shoot 38s or 357. Or mix them up load with 3 of each so you have one that hits harder then the fist one did
 
the .45 was developed because the Chinese would rap them self's in cloth tight as they were charging so if the where shot they would not lose blood pressure, and there for keep shooting. the .45 with a 650 fps bullet and heavy weight would stop a human from moving forward
 
I agree 100% with " OLD". If you miss...nothing matters..so..get something easy to handle , hide and shoot accurately. My cry is a Ruger 22 LR with 10 shot clip. NOBODY is going to keep coming at ya when being hit by multiple rounds of a 22 ! You said "real world". If the guy already has his own weapon pointed at you...then you're toast..you waited too long or something but ya ain't gonna win the gun fight like that. In MOST instances...in "the real world"..it's going to be a prowler or someone thinking you are an easy robbery etc and they are NOT expecting to see you pull a gun of any kind...they are not out to die for your billfold and they will be stopped by any weapon pointed at them..and if they need a little more persuasion,then fire a couple rounds. It's not like they know what you have! 10 rounds from an accurate 22LR semi-auto pistol will tear someone up. Lets face it..in "real world" situations...if a 22 semi-auto doesn't do the trick...neither is anything larger as you have probably way underestimated the situation and/or let it get so far out of hand that you probably should have chosen another option way earlier. To me "real world" is being parked at the auto-teller at your bank and you see someone closing in on you. Soon as they know you are packin'...they are a flyin'. Like I maintain...if you need more that a semi-auto 22 pistol...you probably should have made some better decisions early on. If I'm sitting at a mall waiting for wife and I see two armed thugs approaching across the lot......I'm not getting into a firefight...this guy is starting up and racing the other way. last I knew , thugs can't out run my vehicle. Once in clear,911 and keep them in sight so can direct cops. No need to be a "hero" in most situations. Makes no sense to pull a weapon when they already have.You will lose.
 
Caliber is by far more important. Long time back I was in a class where a detective from Detroit spoke. They'd had six officer involved shootings the year prior, three with 9mm three with 45acp. All three 45 were one shot stops, all three 9mm were multishot engagements. The simple fact is the bigger the hole, the more damage done. That said, if you have an issue with control, many small holes beat zero big ones.
Most of the time I carry a .38 because it is easy to conceal. If I know I am heading toward trouble, I will pack a 44 or a 45.
 
Keep in mind when comparing velocity and energy, you need to look at the barrel length in which it was measured and cartridge type (rifle vs pistol). .22 mag is a rifle cartridge and it's peak velocity is usually measured with a 16" or longer barrel.

Here is a comparison of ballistics, same cartridge different barrel lengths

.22mag 18" barrel CCI maxi, 1980 fps, 360 ft-lbs
.22mag 4" barrel CCI maxi, 1350 fps, 155 ft-lbs
 
I recall that many years ago here in our town a man was taken to the hospital with an entry wound on one side of his head and an exit wound on the other, but the guy was conscious and communicative. Doctors discovered that the bullet, a .22, followed a path around the guy's skull.
 
(quoted from post at 03:44:47 08/13/18) I have a .22WMR right now. Looking for something bigger. I was leaning towards a .38spl but looking at the charts threw me for a loop. Bigger slug but less energy? Looking for a bump in the night gun. Mostly for four legged bad guys .38spl could shoot rat shot. But hard on the barrel newer stuff is in a capsule supposed to be better.

If you only want to shoot at rats and other furry night critters a 410 shotgun should do the job for you. If you still want a handgun for this job there is a revolver, with a smooth bore, that fires a 410 round. It can also be used with .45 rounds, but don't expect any accuracy beyond 10-15 feet.
 
This is a hotly debated subject, but the short answer is the cartridge which delivers the greatest energy downrange will be the most effective. The more energy, the greater the damage to the target.

That said, there are many other factors to consider. First off, there's momentum, which you'll never find published but which you can calculate. Momentum is mass times velocity, while energy is 1/2 mass times the SQUARE of velocity. So if you're comparing two cartridges with the same muzzle energy, the heavier, slower bullet will have greater momentum than the lighter, faster one. Conservation of momentum says if two objects collide (say your bullet and a woodchuck), the total momentum of the those two objects after the collision must be the same as before. Consequently, many folks say momentum is "knockdown power", but in practice the things you shoot at are much heavier than your bullet, so momentum does really translate to being able to knock down a human or large animal. On the other hand, momentum is important for mettalic silhouette shooters, who need to knock down their targets without damaging them.

Another thing to consider is bullet sectional density. That's the mass of the bullet divided by it's cross-section area. If you take two bullets with the same energy, the one with the higher sectional density will penetrate further. So a 357 Mag with 158 grain bullets will penetrate further than a 357 Mag with 125 grain bullets. But the lighter bullet, traveling faster, is likely to expand faster and be more effective than the heavier bullet.

Getting back to your .38 Special vs. .22 Mag comparison, you probably shouldn't be comparing with standard-velocity 38 ammo. For anything other than targets, one would use +P .38 Special ammo, which has a muzzle energy comparable to .22 WMR or 9 mm Luger.
 
> The .45 was developed because the Chinese would rap them self's in cloth tight as they were charging so if the where shot they would not lose blood pressure, and there for keep shooting. the .45 with a 650 fps bullet and heavy weight would stop a human from moving forward

Not exactly. The US military's insistence on 45 caliber sidearms was based on experience during the Moro uprising in the Philippines. The army service revolver at that time was chambered in .38 Long Colt, a rather pathetic black powder cartridge. As a result of the .38 LC's poor performance, older revolvers chambered in .45 Colt were issued. Much is made of the difference in performance of the bigger bore cartridge, but the fact is a .45 Colt has roughly double the muzzle energy of a .38 Long Colt. And it is energy, not bore size, that kills. A .45 loaded to the same energy as a .38 LC is going to give poor performance as well.

Now one should not make decisions about which smokeless cartridge to use based on black powder ballistics, but that's what the Army did when it insisted the M1911 be chambered in .45. With black powder, the only way to increase energy is to increase bore diameter. That's not true with modern smokeless powders.
 
There is some 22 mag short barrel ammo out there that will get you better numbers for the short barrel guns. CCI is one and there is
another company that makes a 45 gr. bullet in 22 mag for short barrel self defence guns.
 
OK, all you guys talking shot placement. They know that in the self defense situation the very first thing that happens is a massive adrenaline dump in your body. It knocks your heartbeat up to about 120 beats per minutes. Also causes rapid breathing. Both things will effect that shot placement. That is why they train soldiers, Marines and cops to shoot center of mass. The bodies natural reaction to high stress. So before you start bragging about carrying a small pistol and shot placement, run in place, do push-ups or something to get that old heart rate up, then present (draw) that plinker in the dark and hit a vital organ that's going to stop someone. OH and while yer are doing that, imagine that the bad guy is high of meth or crack.

That being said for the OP, get something you are comfortable with. Most likely you will never use it. More people die every day of old age who have have never had to use a gun to defend themselves in a civilian setting (not in war) than those who have had to defend themselves by a wide margin. I think the numbers are like .000001% of the population uses a gun in self defense or defending home or family every year.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 09:29:21 08/13/18) I thought we used the .45 M1911 in France in 1917

1911 45ACP along with the the Smith and Colt M1917 revolvers also firing the 45ACP.
 
(quoted from post at 23:23:25 08/12/18) So looking at a new revolver. I am looking the ballistics charts. My question is in "the real world" what is more important FPS velocity or Ft-LBS of energy. I'm looking at a couple calibers which are a small bullet moving fast and a couple of bigger calibers which are slow moving. Looking at for example a . 38 spl which is a 125 Gr bullet but only has 225ft-lbs but a .22 WMR is a 40Gr bullet and has 324ft-lbs. But in the real world what is going to have more knock down?

Getting back to the original question and your other post stating it's mainly 4 legged varmints you're concerned with and not holding off hordes of mutant zombie bikers, I'd go with the 38 (or a 357) if you want an effective revolver for what amounts to "farm work", especially with shot capsules. Get one you like that feels good in the hand and practice with it. I'm a huge fan of 4" K frame Smiths, but a J frame can be had with a 4" barrel too. There are many makes out there that can serve you well and you really can't do a whole lot better for a utility revolver than a 38/357 unless you want to go to a larger caliber. The 22 Mag is a fine round in a rifle, in a handgun it's more like a 22LR out of a rifle, ie- velocity loss is significant enough to be an issue. Plus, the 22 mag is expensive to shoot and with "rat shot" it gets very expensive. So are the 38 's with "rat shot", but you stand a much better chance of killing the varmint with a 38's load of shot than with a 22's.

As far as the rest of the stuff on self defense, a man that knows his gun, even a 22, is going to be far more effective than the guy blasting away with a 499 Super Duper Magnum. God forbid anyone ever have to use a gun in self defense, but if you do you stand a better chance 100% of the time if you can actually hit the target.
 
(quoted from post at 00:05:21 08/13/18) Keep in mind when comparing velocity and energy, you need to look at the barrel length in which it was measured and cartridge type (rifle vs pistol). .22 mag is a rifle cartridge and it's peak velocity is usually measured with a 16" or longer barrel.

Here is a comparison of ballistics, same cartridge different barrel lengths

.22mag 18" barrel CCI maxi, 1980 fps, 360 ft-lbs
.22mag 4" barrel CCI maxi, 1350 fps, 155 ft-lbs
That makes more sense.
 
If using a round for self defence,If you had a choice of which round you were going to be shot with yourself,you would pick the one that would do the least damage.If someone was attacting your family you would want the one that does the most damage.Usally the larger and slower caliber has more room for error
 
Yes not enough power to go threw bone but enough to really make a mess of things and does a lot of damage depending on where it goes
 
Smith and wesson night guard in 44 spc. Big slow bullet that will leave a mark that's for sure. I like big and slow. Sure makes an impression when shooting milk jugs full of water over say a 9mm or 380.
a276703.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 11:16:46 08/13/18)
Isn't a marine just a soldier..

No, a Marine isn't just a Soldier. Soldiers serve in the US Army, Marines serve in the United States Marine Corps.
 
I prefer a 9mm. I have a little Glock 43 that I carry in my pocket all time.I carry it to church in my suit pocket. Never notice it being there, yet it has a pretty big punch. A Browning, Browning's, last design, was designed for the French Army in the late 30's but rejected by them, wound up being the official pistol of 23 different armies. The Browning High Power, made in Austria. The Germans took over the factory in about 39 or 40. I have one that was made in 43 under German supervision. It has German SS insignia stamped on the various parts. It is a little heavy for my pocket. The Germans liked it so well that they issued it to their SS officers rather than the Luger. 9MM cartages are inexpensive and readily available.
 
> The Browning High Power, made in Austria.

Herstal, Belgium, not Austria. Had the FN plant been in Austria, the Nazis wouldn't have needed to capture it. (It also wouldn't have been called "Fabrique Nationale", for that matter.)
 
My younger brother has 18 yrs in the navy. He says marine stands for: My Arse Rides In Navy Equipment! By the way. I carry a ruger LC9.
 
Springfield XDm 45 acp. Anything else is a toy. You want to knock something down, it does the job. You
basically have a Ford/Chevy, JD/Case, Red truck/blue truck, manual trans/girly trans question, to which
there is no answer. Discussion goes on for ever, no winner no loser, lots of points we pick what we like
 
Here's a pretty good article that answers question pretty well, while not answering it at all. Why, because there are far to many to variables to give any one, specific answer, except to say shoot as large a caliber as you can comfortably stand, practice, and most importantly, PRAY.....
Aim here
 
(quoted from post at 23:28:27 08/13/18) My younger brother has 18 yrs in the navy. He says marine stands for: My Arse Rides In Navy Equipment!

Well, somebody has to transport the fighting men to where the problems are. Kind of a glorified bus service...
 

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