Making my own electric power

37chief

Well-known Member
Location
California
I had solar panels installed on my garage roof. I turned it on today. With my air conditioner on, my house lights, and my sand blaster vent blower I was still sending power back to the power co. When my compressor came on, I was receiving power from the electric co. As long as I am sending power back I get credit for nights, and cloudy days. I don't know about your areas, but solar panels are to be installed on all new construction in a few years. There are a lot of solar companies here in S.Calif, and are all very busy. With our electric service about to take another increase a lot of people are going solar. Stan
 
Keep us posted on how it works long term.I've looked into it for various things but can't just see how it pays off long term but I'm sure improvements are being made all the time.I have a
solar charger that will charge up car/truck/tractor batteries and it works great just hook it up and about a half day later the batter will be charged.Also use it as a battery maintainer on the ones I'm not using it has a big box and will hold about 8 batteries just use small jumpers to hook them all up.
 

Seeing solar panels on both sides of the roof of a house doesn't give you a lot of confidence in the pay back.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the cost of installing solar panels and maintaining them cost more than the savings you get on your electric bill?
 
I would love to at my house....at my age it wouldn't pay off. My electric company said I can get on their "grid" for an initial cost of $22,000....Im paying $110 a month now and just have to write the check each month......I just think it would look cool:) Good luck with yours!
 
One reason the electric price is going up is, since people are installing solar systems they are selling less power, means less money to the electric co. I don't know where the money is going, Probably a lot to pensions. Stan
 
37chief,
You probably have a better chance to recover costs if your electric rates are higher than mine. About $.10/kw-hr. Heard recently on the news are rates are going down because of lower taxes.

About a year ago a man on the news complained the power company, Duke, changed the rules. When he sells his electricity to Duke, Duke pays him wholesale price instead of retail price. The man complained and said his system wouldn't pay for itself.

You know how accurate the news media is, so that may or may not be true.

At my age, I can't see investing in green energy. 30 years ago I invested in a insulation, more insulation, better windows and doors. My annual energy costs averages $1600.

I've always wondered how well would solar panels hold up to golf ball size hail? I've had roof damaged 3 times from hail. Many times we have 90 mph straight line winds and trees get blown down on houses and power lines. Of course you would have to remove trees to get full sun if you put solar on roof.

Will your insurance cover solar Panels, lightning damage?

Hope it works for you.
 
(quoted from post at 19:23:37 07/12/18) I'm curious, why are the electric rates going up there....."again"?? Where's the money going?

You guys who whine that you can't make a living on $2 corn, $8 soybeans, or $14 dollar milk, should understand perfectly when a power company whines that it can't make money on 10-cent electricity!
 

I agree with solar panels and I think it is the wave of the future. Hopefully, in the future, those big, ugly wind turbines will all come down and be replaced with solar panels.
 
Welcome to the club 37chief! I've been using solar I guess for 25 years or so now. It wasn't always pretty at first but that was because I could only afford to go at it piece meal. I would advise those who are thinking of going solar to go all in at once if you can. Sounds like what you did. Sounds like a pretty big installation, how many kilowatts is it rated at? You're going to meet a lot of people who will tell you it can't be done; it's the surest sign that you're dealing with some one who has absolutely no experience or first hand knowledge of solar. Some people are just ornery and want to argue about every thing.

One of my favorite myths is: ' it's not economically feasible" then they add 'maybe in the future when the price drops or they get more efficiant". Well panel prices have been dropping steadily, while efficiancey has steadily gone up. Solar is actualy competive with natural gas, well it was until our national imbarrasment abitrarely added 30% to the costs.

Geo in TH, Panels are quite durable, they undergo rigorous testing. They use tempered glass that is similar to the glass in the windshields of cars so while your roof was damaged did you also have to replace your car windows? Another thing people don't realize is that even if the glass gets a crack in it it doesn't just stop working. I've heard of a panel that was shot thru with a .22 cal. and was still in service. My own panels have withstood 1/2" hail, luckly that's about as big as it gets around here. As for lightning that's what they make lightning arrestors for. One more thing, when they give a lifespan rating, that is for a certain rated output at that year. For example a panel might have only 80% output of it's original rating at say 20 or 25 years. After that they're still cranking out the power, just not as much as they used to.

Is solar right for everybody? No it's not. A friend ask me how many panels it would take for his house. When I crushed the numbers it was 38-200wtt panels. Well he is one of those indoor farmers and all those lights and fans and humidifiers take alot to run! His monthly usage is three times the normal of a family of four. The point is it's not going to be one magic bullet that'll solve all our energy problems, it's going to be a combination of every thing, geothermal, hydro, tidal, wind, etc.
So if you don't want to go solar then don't, but don't go sniping at people who do. Nobody's is forcing anybody to do anything. It's still a free country.....for now anyway.

Congrdulation 37chief! you proved that you don't have to be a full blown bonified tree hugger to do your little part towards leaving an inhabitable planet behind for future generations. Er...you're in SoCal??? My apologies if you are a tree hugger.

JD
 
Like any other business the costs to operate go up every year. The standard bucket trucks for example are in the range of $120k then need to be set up for each utility probably another $50k or more. They have to maintain fully operational garages for all the vehicles. Cannot begin to imagine the cost to maintain the hundreds of thousands of miles of poles, wire and all that goes with getting the power everywhere. The regulatory commissions are relentless when it comes to where the money goes. Solar is not for everyone especially up in the snow belt and out in wooded rural areas.
 
Our power co pays for the extra power that you have given them, In DEC. So during the winter months, you do not have a positive power balance, when you really need it. So I chose not to go solar.
 
I just put up a system this week as well. Its 40 panels rated at 12.8 KW. In IL with the incentives offered and net metering it was a simple decision. The utility still has to install the new meter so it will read what the system generates but yesterdays production was 81 KW.
 
(quoted from post at 02:05:09 07/13/18) The panels have a 25 year warranty. The operating system 12 years. Stan

My Estwing hammers had a "Lifetime Warranty" when I bought them 20 years ago. The warranty was cancelled. For that matter, try collecting your warranty claim when the company has been out of business for 20 years. My point is, a warranty is not a guarantee that the business will be there or that the warranty will be honored.
 
Bill in IL,

I hate you! My little systems is only a mere 2.5Kw. We're in the snow belt and yeah we'd like a little bit more when Dec. and Jan. come around. We were thinking of an upgrade this year but the tarrifs will add about an extra thousand so we're holding off, maybe upgrade our inverter. Still for the wife and I we get along just fine. 12Kw dang that's alot.

JD
 
We use a lot of power so the size made sense. I have a nice south facing roof on my shop so we
filled it with panels.
 
(quoted from post at 09:42:13 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 02:05:09 07/13/18) The panels have a 25 year warranty. The operating system 12 years. Stan

My Estwing hammers had a "Lifetime Warranty" when I bought them 20 years ago. The warranty was cancelled. For that matter, try collecting your warranty claim when the company has been out of business for 20 years. My point is, a warranty is not a guarantee that the business will be there or that the warranty will be honored.

So a warranty for solar equipment is less valid than a warranty for anything else?
No warranty is is guaranteed to be in effect the minute after you buy anything, anywhere at any time.

Same as life itself.
 
(quoted from post at 08:51:11 07/13/18) Our power co pays for the extra power that you have given them, In DEC. So during the winter months, you do not have a positive power balance, when you really need it. So I chose not to go solar.

I think your saying that by December, customers have have already consumed all of the power credits they pumped into the grid? Therefore they do not get an annual check to zero out the balance due to the customer?

If you want to make money on your solar system, you have to oversize the system beyond your needs.

But why spend all that extra to give the power company the cheapest power they buy?

Since you have not gone solar, how do you know that your investment wouis the case
 
(quoted from post at 23:15:51 07/12/18) Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the cost of installing solar panels and maintaining them cost more than the savings you get on your electric bill?

If you are saying pay off in five years, then you are correct.
 

I've look at and read about solar for several years but no one has ever said what it cost to install.
Would you care to mention a ball park number for your 12K system installed, hooked up and ready to go.

80% of our utility's power when to 2 aluminum plants about 40 miles from me, one of those plants shut down, the utility has since shut down one of it's generating plants and raised our home rates 50%.
I'd like to lower my utility bill but would have to justify the cost, no way could I afford a system big enough to power my farming operation.
 
(quoted from post at 11:15:35 07/13/18)
I've look at and read about solar for several years but no one has ever said what it cost to install.
Would you care to mention a ball park number for your 12K system installed, hooked up and ready to go.

80% of our utility's power when to 2 aluminum plants about 40 miles from me, one of those plants shut down, the utility has since shut down one of it's generating plants and raised our home rates 50%.
I'd like to lower my utility bill but would have to justify the cost, no way could I afford a system big enough to power my farming operation.

If you can put up with a possibly pushy salesman, you could get a quote to fit what you would want from your local solar retailer.

Anyone with the land space should try to install the panels "not on a roof". Install them like they do on a solar farm.
 
I have 22 panels 7. something KW. Cost was around 22k, with the California rebate I will have a total cost of 15k. My monthly payment now is 211.00,and will not change. With the 7k rebate next year it will be less. My electric bill was around 250.00 a month, and rising. Each state will have different prices I am sure. In California there is a lot of companies selling solar systems, keeping the cost fairly equal.Stan
 

Up front cost . Maintenance? Price per kw hr paid by utility to you ? Cost to pay to utility to purchase power ? Do you have claim that power sold to the utility as income and pay tax on it ? Is there tax payers and rate payers subsidizing any of this ?
 
Mine was 30 k for 12kw installed and generating.
The big thing is what incentives are offered in your
area to offset the cost.
 
(quoted from post at 21:54:43 07/12/18)
Seeing solar panels on both sides of the roof of a house doesn't give you a lot of confidence in the pay back.

Panels facing east and west costs less and is more reliable than using a tracker system.
 
(quoted from post at 01:09:12 07/13/18) One reason the electric price is going up is, since people are installing solar systems they are selling less power, means less money to the electric co. I don't know where the money is going, Probably a lot to pensions. Stan

The retail rates are up because the distribution utility is forced to purchase Wind power at 13.5 cents, Natural Gas at 16.5 cents and solar at an average of 40.5 cents . Then the utility can purchase hydraulic or nuclear for between 0 to 7 cents .
If there is a surplus of power which occurs on weekends in particular and just about anytime spring and fall. Our distribution utility pays over a billion a year to dump excess power to Michigan, Ohio and NY State .
That is where the money is going .
 

Thanks Bill that gives me and idea of what to expect cost would be.

There are some tax incentives here but local utility doesn't want to buy back power, they have too much since that aluminum plant shut down.
I'd like to have a system for my poultry barns but my pockets aren't near deep enough for that.
Just got the utility bill on them today, we've had a good bit of hot weather, with lots of fans running along with cooling system pumps, but this is the first bill we had on them for over $1600, nearly $400 higher than ever before.

John
 
(quoted from post at 01:09:40 07/13/18) I had solar panels installed on my garage roof. I turned it on today. With my air conditioner on, my house lights, and my sand blaster vent blower I was still sending power back to the power co. When my compressor came on, I was receiving power from the electric co. As long as I am sending power back I get credit for nights, and cloudy days. I don't know about your areas, but solar panels are to be installed on all new construction in a few years. There are a lot of solar companies here in S.Calif, and are all very busy. With our electric service about to take another increase a lot of people are going solar. Stan

My brother-in-law sells electrical generating systems for homes. He sells and installs wind turbans and solar panels. In fact he runs his home with this stuff. He's not even hooked up to the grid. He uses an electric water heater for a power dump on days he's producing more than he can use. He has used this system for twenty years or more. I haven't heard of too many problems with it in all this time.
 
(quoted from post at 10:00:18 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 21:54:43 07/12/18)
Seeing solar panels on both sides of the roof of a house doesn't give you a lot of confidence in the pay back.

Panels facing east and west costs less and is more reliable than using a tracker system.

Is facing east and west lower cost than facing south?
 
(quoted from post at 14:06:31 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 01:09:12 07/13/18) One reason the electric price is going up is, since people are installing solar systems they are selling less power, means less money to the electric co. I don't know where the money is going, Probably a lot to pensions. Stan

The retail rates are up because the distribution utility is forced to purchase Wind power at 13.5 cents, Natural Gas at 16.5 cents and solar at an average of 40.5 cents . Then the utility can purchase hydraulic or nuclear for between 0 to 7 cents .
If there is a surplus of power which occurs on weekends in particular and just about anytime spring and fall. Our distribution utility pays over a billion a year to dump excess power to Michigan, Ohio and NY State .
That is where the money is going .



AMEN!!! Everyone out there that thinks the power co is going to eat the cost of having to pay many times it's price for solar, wind, etc is nuts. Those costs are all passed on to the other 99% of us that don't have solar, etc.
 
(quoted from post at 11:53:51 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 09:42:13 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 02:05:09 07/13/18) The panels have a 25 year warranty. The operating system 12 years. Stan

My Estwing hammers had a "Lifetime Warranty" when I bought them 20 years ago. The warranty was cancelled. For that matter, try collecting your warranty claim when the company has been out of business for 20 years. My point is, a warranty is not a guarantee that the business will be there or that the warranty will be honored.

So a warranty for solar equipment is less valid than a warranty for anything else?
No warranty is is guaranteed to be in effect the minute after you buy anything, anywhere at any time.

Same as life itself.

Nope, I'm just pointing out the obvious, that just saying "It's got a 25 year warranty" is no proof the item will last 25 years or that there will be a company to go back to if it fails. Pretty simple concept.
 
(quoted from post at 12:01:32 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 08:51:11 07/13/18) Our power co pays for the extra power that you have given them, In DEC. So during the winter months, you do not have a positive power balance, when you really need it. So I chose not to go solar.

I think your saying that by December, customers have have already consumed all of the power credits they pumped into the grid? Therefore they do not get an annual check to zero out the balance due to the customer?

If you want to make money on your solar system, you have to oversize the system beyond your needs.

[b:b1909e54eb]But why spend all that extra to give the power company the cheapest power they buy?[/b:b1909e54eb]

Since you have not gone solar, how do you know that your investment wouis the case

It's no where near the cheapest power they can buy! It's about the most expensive power they are forced to pay for by law.
 
It's no where near the cheapest power they can buy! It's about the most expensive power they are forced to pay for by law.

Depends on what area your in.
I believe most power companies pay wholesale rates.
But some are required to pay retail rates.
Some do not have to pay at all or can refuse to allow you to tie into the grid.

Of course wholesale and retail rates being paid might not truly reflect wholesale or retail rates.
 
(quoted from post at 12:05:36 07/14/18)
It's no where near the cheapest power they can buy! It's about the most expensive power they are forced to pay for by law.

Depends on what area your in.
I believe most power companies pay wholesale rates.
But some are required to pay retail rates.
Some do not have to pay at all or can refuse to allow you to tie into the grid.

Of course wholesale and retail rates being paid might not truly reflect wholesale or retail rates.

In NY the power co are required to pay, last I knew, about 12 cents per KwH for solar. That's many, many times what it costs them to produce it. I understand other states have similar requirements. That cost gets passed onto the regular rate payers, been that way for years. If solar/alternatives are to ever make it, they need to be able to make it without ridiculous subsidies like this.
 
I understand other states have similar requirements. That cost gets passed onto the regular rate payers, been that way for years. If solar/alternatives are to ever make it, they need to be able to make it without ridiculous subsidies like this.

Totally agree!
Here in Florida the "state" rebates and incentives are actually funded by the power companies.
Then the state requires a them to buy the surplus power at a wholesale rate.
I do not know but I bet the power company can't charge the customer anything for the special meter required to do so either.
 

buickanddeere & Bret4207, you guys again? I remember you guys were spouting this same clap trap last time this topic came up. What was it like a year and a half a go? Did either one of you read my first reply on this thread? or was it too long? or is it you have poor reading comprehension? So I ask you: how many solar panels are you running? how many kilowatts? and how long have you had them? Yeah, I didn't think so.

I'd like to know where they're paying 40.5 cents a Kw, I'd set up panels in a hurry there, not for the energy but for investment income. Like Double07 points out it depends on where you live. Last time we had this chat I spent some time researching on the internet, it got complicated fast what with all the amortization costs, fixed costs, variable cost, just about every state has a public utility commission and they all go by different anagrams. So I'm not going to go through that again just to argue with obstinacy. But I'll mention some of the things I learned back then. First off, about half the states do not have net metering, and the trend is for states that have it is to drop it. In states that do have it there are only a handful that require utilities to buy power from IPPs (independent power producers) at retail rates. The rest only have to pay the wholesale rates. The wholesale rate around here is 3-5 cents per Kw. It's this rate that the big utilities charge each other when they "share" power. Here in Michigan the power companies have agreements with neighboring companies so that if there is a dearth or surpluses they can trade with each other and keep the grid running smoothly. Nobody is sending Michigan free energy. I don't know where on earth you came up with your billion dollar assertion, I have an idea but I'm trying to keep this as civil as possible. So if you're grid tied in a state that doesn't have net metering your excess power is absorbed by the power company for FREE. Free has got to be the very definition of cheapest! Oh and if you're getting it for free you're not really buying it, are you? More like stealing it if you ask me.

So who's forcing who to buy what? Generally a state or a municipality will enact an ordinance requireing utilities to generate a small portion of their total production from green friendly sources. Usually 10-20%, and have sliding scales to make the transition smoother. These ordinances are pretty weak as they often have no penalties or the penalties aren't enforced. Time lines get moved back, pecentages get lowered, etc. Now I said it before and I'll say it again: power companies are not against green energy per se, they're against you producing your own energy!

Who's subsidizing whom? With the new and unwarranted tarrifs anyone buying panels today is subsidizing an inefficient manufacturing sector. Those tarrifs wipe out any tax breaks/subsidies from the Federal government. Nobody knows how long those tarrifs will be in place but we know the federal tax incentives run out in another couple of years. Lots of folks on this forum like to talk about free markets, market forces, capitalism, etc. where's the outrage over this government meddling? 99% of those who are on the grid sans panels are subsidizing those with panels? Really? I guess the good news is that that number is going down all the time and it's a trend that's going to continue -get used to it! So if I switch to soy milk instead of cow's milk then by your convuluted logic I drove the price of cow milk up? Wouldn't it drive prices down? More milk in the pipe line and all. So it's the same with energy, the power that is fed into the grid by IPPs lowers the demand on the utility. They burn less of what ever it is they burn, saving costs. If they don't pass that savings on to you then maybe you sould focus your ire in that direction. Or talk to your public utilities commission or better yet run for a seat on it. A final thought on who is subsidizing what: have you ever considered it from our side of things, basically we're subsidizing YOUR clean air! You're welcome!

Like I said in my first reply to this thread, it's a free country, nobody is forcing you to go solar, if your neighbor does he's not costing you a damned dime! So please stop spreading your uninformed nonsense.

Have a good day all!
JD
 
(quoted from post at 12:13:39 07/15/18)
buickanddeere & Bret4207, you guys again? I remember you guys were spouting this same clap trap last time this topic came up. What was it like a year and a half a go? Did either one of you read my first reply on this thread? or was it too long? or is it you have poor reading comprehension? So I ask you: how many solar panels are you running? how many kilowatts? and how long have you had them? Yeah, I didn't think so.

I'd like to know where they're paying 40.5 cents a Kw, I'd set up panels in a hurry there, not for the energy but for investment income. Like Double07 points out it depends on where you live. Last time we had this chat I spent some time researching on the internet, it got complicated fast what with all the amortization costs, fixed costs, variable cost, just about every state has a public utility commission and they all go by different anagrams. So I'm not going to go through that again just to argue with obstinacy. But I'll mention some of the things I learned back then. First off, about half the states do not have net metering, and the trend is for states that have it is to drop it. In states that do have it there are only a handful that require utilities to buy power from IPPs (independent power producers) at retail rates. The rest only have to pay the wholesale rates. The wholesale rate around here is 3-5 cents per Kw. It's this rate that the big utilities charge each other when they "share" power. Here in Michigan the power companies have agreements with neighboring companies so that if there is a dearth or surpluses they can trade with each other and keep the grid running smoothly. Nobody is sending Michigan free energy. I don't know where on earth you came up with your billion dollar assertion, I have an idea but I'm trying to keep this as civil as possible. So if you're grid tied in a state that doesn't have net metering your excess power is absorbed by the power company for FREE. Free has got to be the very definition of cheapest! Oh and if you're getting it for free you're not really buying it, are you? More like stealing it if you ask me.

So who's forcing who to buy what? Generally a state or a municipality will enact an ordinance requireing utilities to generate a small portion of their total production from green friendly sources. Usually 10-20%, and have sliding scales to make the transition smoother. These ordinances are pretty weak as they often have no penalties or the penalties aren't enforced. Time lines get moved back, pecentages get lowered, etc. Now I said it before and I'll say it again: power companies are not against green energy per se, they're against you producing your own energy!

Who's subsidizing whom? With the new and unwarranted tarrifs anyone buying panels today is subsidizing an inefficient manufacturing sector. Those tarrifs wipe out any tax breaks/subsidies from the Federal government. Nobody knows how long those tarrifs will be in place but we know the federal tax incentives run out in another couple of years. Lots of folks on this forum like to talk about free markets, market forces, capitalism, etc. where's the outrage over this government meddling? 99% of those who are on the grid sans panels are subsidizing those with panels? Really? I guess the good news is that that number is going down all the time and it's a trend that's going to continue -get used to it! So if I switch to soy milk instead of cow's milk then by your convuluted logic I drove the price of cow milk up? Wouldn't it drive prices down? More milk in the pipe line and all. So it's the same with energy, the power that is fed into the grid by IPPs lowers the demand on the utility. They burn less of what ever it is they burn, saving costs. If they don't pass that savings on to you then maybe you sould focus your ire in that direction. Or talk to your public utilities commission or better yet run for a seat on it. A final thought on who is subsidizing what: have you ever considered it from our side of things, basically we're subsidizing YOUR clean air! You're welcome!

Like I said in my first reply to this thread, it's a free country, nobody is forcing you to go solar, if your neighbor does he's not costing you a damned dime! So please stop spreading your uninformed nonsense.

Have a good day all!
JD

Exactly which states are using anagrams for their public services commissions rate standards? Did you by chance mean algorithms?

At any rate, quite a thesis you wrote there. I suppose one wants to defend their position, even if it means making a few leaps in the process. My point is, was and remains that no one else should have to subsidize another individuals decision to play with solar. If you want it, great! Then buy it yourself and go from there. Net metering itself is fine as long as the utility is only paying or reimbursing the individual at the same cost it costs the utility to produce the power. Otherwise it's just an additional cost passed on to the other rate payers and I can't for the life of me see how that can possibly be viewed as fair or "right".

I'm not sure where you got anything about 40 cents KwH or billions of dollars in my posts, but I never said anything like that. The fact is, and it is a fact, that in my state if you want to you can legally join a consortium that buys "solar" power at a low cost, 6 cents KwH is the price quoted to us, and the utility is forced to pay over 12 by law. This is in NY. research it if you like. It's wrong IMO.

As far as guarantees and life expectancy of solar panels, that's salesmanship. You have no more guarantee of "Bobs Solar Panel Co." being there in 25 years than any other company. I fail to see why anyone takes issue with that.

If you footed the bill for your installation by yourself and it works for you, that's great. But I find the people talking about subsidies usually fail to consider just who is paying their way, and that is wrong to me.
 

Jimmydog, I live in NH where we have what appears to me to be a very healthy solar industry. My neighbor's son works in sales for one of the companies. I know that the main attraction is that the homeowner needs to lay out little to nothing due to subsidies and getting "free electrical power". NH has net metering which was recently renewed by the legislature. This means that the utilities are subsidizing the solar industry, and I know where my utlility gets its money. Jimmydog, your treatise reads pretty convincingly except for one little phrase: "and the trend is for states that have it is to drop it"
 
(quoted from post at 21:46:33 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 10:00:18 07/13/18)
(quoted from post at 21:54:43 07/12/18)
Seeing solar panels on both sides of the roof of a house doesn't give you a lot of confidence in the pay back.

Panels facing east and west costs less and is more reliable than using a tracker system.

Is facing east and west lower cost than facing south?

Can be less costly in the long term vs purchasing and maintaining a tracker unit .
 
(quoted from post at 09:45:04 07/16/18)
Jimmydog, I live in NH where we have what appears to me to be a very healthy solar industry. My neighbor's son works in sales for one of the companies. I know that the main attraction is that the homeowner needs to lay out little to nothing due to subsidies and getting "free electrical power". NH has net metering which was recently renewed by the legislature. This means that the utilities are subsidizing the solar industry, and I know where my utlility gets its money. Jimmydog, your treatise reads pretty convincingly except for one little phrase: "and the trend is for states that have it is to drop it"

How do you get utilities are subsidizing solar due to net metering?
 
(quoted from post at 09:03:53 07/16/18)
(quoted from post at 12:13:39 07/15/18)
buickanddeere & Bret4207, you guys again? I remember you guys were spouting this same clap trap last time this topic came up. What was it like a year and a half a go? Did either one of you read my first reply on this thread? or was it too long? or is it you have poor reading comprehension? So I ask you: how many solar panels are you running? how many kilowatts? and how long have you had them? Yeah, I didn't think so.

I'd like to know where they're paying 40.5 cents a Kw, I'd set up panels in a hurry there, not for the energy but for investment income. Like Double07 points out it depends on where you live. Last time we had this chat I spent some time researching on the internet, it got complicated fast what with all the amortization costs, fixed costs, variable cost, just about every state has a public utility commission and they all go by different anagrams. So I'm not going to go through that again just to argue with obstinacy. But I'll mention some of the things I learned back then. First off, about half the states do not have net metering, and the trend is for states that have it is to drop it. In states that do have it there are only a handful that require utilities to buy power from IPPs (independent power producers) at retail rates. The rest only have to pay the wholesale rates. The wholesale rate around here is 3-5 cents per Kw. It's this rate that the big utilities charge each other when they "share" power. Here in Michigan the power companies have agreements with neighboring companies so that if there is a dearth or surpluses they can trade with each other and keep the grid running smoothly. Nobody is sending Michigan free energy. I don't know where on earth you came up with your billion dollar assertion, I have an idea but I'm trying to keep this as civil as possible. So if you're grid tied in a state that doesn't have net metering your excess power is absorbed by the power company for FREE. Free has got to be the very definition of cheapest! Oh and if you're getting it for free you're not really buying it, are you? More like stealing it if you ask me.

So who's forcing who to buy what? Generally a state or a municipality will enact an ordinance requireing utilities to generate a small portion of their total production from green friendly sources. Usually 10-20%, and have sliding scales to make the transition smoother. These ordinances are pretty weak as they often have no penalties or the penalties aren't enforced. Time lines get moved back, pecentages get lowered, etc. Now I said it before and I'll say it again: power companies are not against green energy per se, they're against you producing your own energy!

Who's subsidizing whom? With the new and unwarranted tarrifs anyone buying panels today is subsidizing an inefficient manufacturing sector. Those tarrifs wipe out any tax breaks/subsidies from the Federal government. Nobody knows how long those tarrifs will be in place but we know the federal tax incentives run out in another couple of years. Lots of folks on this forum like to talk about free markets, market forces, capitalism, etc. where's the outrage over this government meddling? 99% of those who are on the grid sans panels are subsidizing those with panels? Really? I guess the good news is that that number is going down all the time and it's a trend that's going to continue -get used to it! So if I switch to soy milk instead of cow's milk then by your convuluted logic I drove the price of cow milk up? Wouldn't it drive prices down? More milk in the pipe line and all. So it's the same with energy, the power that is fed into the grid by IPPs lowers the demand on the utility. They burn less of what ever it is they burn, saving costs. If they don't pass that savings on to you then maybe you sould focus your ire in that direction. Or talk to your public utilities commission or better yet run for a seat on it. A final thought on who is subsidizing what: have you ever considered it from our side of things, basically we're subsidizing YOUR clean air! You're welcome!

Like I said in my first reply to this thread, it's a free country, nobody is forcing you to go solar, if your neighbor does he's not costing you a damned dime! So please stop spreading your uninformed nonsense.

Have a good day all!
JD

Exactly which states are using anagrams for their public services commissions rate standards? Did you by chance mean algorithms?

At any rate, quite a thesis you wrote there. I suppose one wants to defend their position, even if it means making a few leaps in the process. My point is, was and remains that no one else should have to subsidize another individuals decision to play with solar. If you want it, great! Then buy it yourself and go from there. Net metering itself is fine as long as the utility is only paying or reimbursing the individual at the same cost it costs the utility to produce the power. Otherwise it's just an additional cost passed on to the other rate payers and I can't for the life of me see how that can possibly be viewed as fair or "right".

I'm not sure where you got anything about 40 cents KwH or billions of dollars in my posts, but I never said anything like that. The fact is, and it is a fact, that in my state if you want to you can legally join a consortium that buys "solar" power at a low cost, 6 cents KwH is the price quoted to us, and the utility is forced to pay over 12 by law. This is in NY. research it if you like. It's wrong IMO.

As far as guarantees and life expectancy of solar panels, that's salesmanship. You have no more guarantee of "Bobs Solar Panel Co." being there in 25 years than any other company. I fail to see why anyone takes issue with that.

If you footed the bill for your installation by yourself and it works for you, that's great. But I find the people talking about subsidies usually fail to consider just who is paying their way, and that is wrong to me.

Brent

I have been trying to tell some of these starry eyed dreamers who let idealogy take precedence over physics and economics. They don’t want to and won’t listen to even an Auditor Generals Report . They won’t Google it or click on a link either . They are in denial . http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/specialreports/specialreports/FairHydroPlan_en.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/ontarios-green-energy-act-bad-bargain-ontarians
 
(quoted from post at 08:02:14 07/16/18)
(quoted from post at 09:45:04 07/16/18)
Jimmydog, I live in NH where we have what appears to me to be a very healthy solar industry. My neighbor's son works in sales for one of the companies. I know that the main attraction is that the homeowner needs to lay out little to nothing due to subsidies and getting "free electrical power". NH has net metering which was recently renewed by the legislature. This means that the utilities are subsidizing the solar industry, and I know where my utlility gets its money. Jimmydog, your treatise reads pretty convincingly except for one little phrase: "and the trend is for states that have it is to drop it"

How do you get utilities are subsidizing solar due to net metering?

Simply because the customer pays by their net use. Their bill is reduced by what the utility buys, at the same rate that the customer pays the utility. Retail instead of wholesale. Businesses sell at a mark-up to cover their costs and perhaps make a little profit. Since there is no mark-up on this product sold the utility's operating money has to come from somewhere else, which is nowhere other than other customers.
 
Bret4207,

The "40.5 cents" and "billion dollars" were in reference to what buickanddeere stated. I was trying to kill two birds with one post. Guess in the future I'll reply individually and maybe avoid the confusion. Good catch on that anagram though, I didn't catch that error until after I pressed send. I was going to add an addendum post but now I don't have to, thanx. Actually I was going to say acronyms but alogrithms rings true too. For example here in MI. the public utility commission tacks on a little more to the rate paid to IPPs, this extra is to reflect the savings the utility gains from less wear and tear on their production facility. At least they did a year and a half ago. They were, at that time, in the process of trying to do away or drastically reduce this. So the power companies know they're benefiting from IPPs. As far as your consortium, you forgot to mention how much the utilities sells that green energy for. I would look into it, but not any time soon. I am so swamped and have already wasted more time on this thread than I should have. We used to have a consortium around here that would help you install solar and then sell any excess you had for a premium to the green friendly folks, eventually people figured out they could just buy and install the panels themselves, and I think they went belly up. Another thing that seems to get lost on folks is that most the time subsidies aren't some check sent willy-nilly to the IPPs it almost always takes the form of tax incentives i.e. credits, and as anybody who doesn't file 1040EZ knows there are lots of them. So should I get my knickers in a wad because somebody got a break for putting more efficient windows in their house? Tax incentives -that is a rabbit hole I'm not going to go down. What about schools? Is it "fair" that some of us who have no children have paid state and local taxes all our lives to subsidies somebody else's kid? At some point you just have to shrug and accept that it's for the greater good of the community, and clean air is good for all mammals. So again I ask who is subsidizing whom? As to the rate paid by utilities to IPPs as I mentioned earlier most (of the half of the states that ACTUALLY have net metering) pay whole sale (production) costs. Even where they pay retail rates they still make money (see my reply to showcrop). Finally it wasn't I that took exception to your comment on warranties -the wife drives Pontiacs.

JD
 

Paying taxes to educate the general populations children isn't the same as paying higher rates for power AND taxes so that someone else can pay a lower power bill, increase (potentially) the value of their home or, a in the case with power consortium's for public entities, make claims they are "saving money" for taxpayers while what they are actually doing is costing the taxpayer more on his personal power bill. It's a scheme to benefit the few at the cost of the many. Those who want to foot the bill for installations themselves have my full support. Those looking to get someone else to pay for a feel good, PC addition to their home...not so much.
 

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