Honesty in farming!

oldtanker

Well-known Member
A while back nitrates in water was a concern.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2017/05/25/water-works-plans-15-million-expanded-nitrate-facility/336648001/

Now just how many people saw this on the news? 10-20-30 million? Maybe 100 plus million? OK farmers in the area under attack.....what other source other than you, where can all these nitrates be coming from? Does tiling make the problem worse as some claim?

Now explain this to me pretending that I'm totally against you! Switch me over to your side using only provable facts! Cause that's just how that idiot city slicker is going to look at it. You know, the idiot with money in hand looking to buy food? Convince that person that you are not poisoning them or their families! Remember that I'm neutral in this. Change the city slickers mind.

Rick
 
I know where the nitrates are coming from downstream from Des Moines. After the remove it from their drinking water,they dump it right back in the river downstream so it's somebody else's problem.
 
I read that nitrates are higher in urban
areas. Farmers put on what's needed and
city folks just put it on because its cheap
when you only do a small area .
 
Nitrates come from naturally decaying matter in the soil such as decaying roots. Nitrates come from nitrogen fixing legumes like soybeans and alfalfa. Nitrates also come from manure whether it be from wildlife or farms. Nitrates come from man made fertilizers injected into the soil or applied on top. Nitrates come from sewers and heavily fertilized grass in cities and towns.

The big debate is how much nitrate comes from each source. The Des Moines water works lawsuit affected my county Along with two other counties so I have naturally paid attention to this debacle.

There are other stories besides mine but what happened was we had a few dry years and nitrates in the soil were not flushed out like normal so there was a buildup. Then we had a couple of wet years that flushed the extra nitrates out. The Raccoon river which is the Des Moines water supply had a high nitrate content from the nitrate buildup in the soil being flushed out. The ageing Des Moines water works treatment plant nitrate removal process was overloaded. The Des Moines water works sent out tree huggers to sample water coming out of tile lines that feed tributaries to the Raccoon river. These three counties happened to receive the most rainfall so these three counties were sued with the intent of a new water treatment plant being built with the monetary proceeds from the lawsuit. In the end he waterworks lost and a bunch of lawyers made a bundle.
He tree huggers blame an increase in corn acres on putting more nitrates in the groundwater because of the fact that nitrogen is heavily applied to corn acres. (Evil ethanol comes into play here) An increase in corn acres in these three counties that were sued means more corn on corn was grown or in layman’s terms, more corn grown on land that grew corn the previous year. What they don’t realize is after the corn crop is grown and harvested there is very little nitrogen left in the soil in that field. The corn used it up and nitrogen fertilizer is expensive so the sensible farmer isn’t going to apply more nitrogen than the corn crop needs. A bean crop in turn Makes nitrogen and fixes it in the soil, about a pound of nitrogen for every bushel of soybeans produced so soybeans are more of a culprit than corn so in reality a corn-bean rotation puts more nitrogen in the soil during a time of the year when that nitrogen is not used up. I can go on and on about responsible nitrogen application practices that reduce nitrogen loss but that’s not the original subject matter.

OK, let’s hear it!
 
I remember a story several years back when
they switched there baby to formula it
started doing poorly one night it started
turning blue it was rushed to the hospital
where it died. The culprit was to much
nitrate in the water. It's not as bad now as
it used to be but there's allot of salesman
out there who will sell as much fertilizer
as the can especially if there on
commission. I know they wanted me to pour it
on but doing the math with plowdown and
manure i didn't need fertilizer.check out
blue baby
 
The water quality in Iowa is a huge issue, rivers are basically agricultural drainage ditches.

The reason that suit got thrown out is Iowa has an 1800s law that says laws cannot infringe on farming.

I live here.
 
Let me start out by saying I am a farmer. My livelihood comes from raising corn and beans. I hate it when both sides use extreme examples. Farmers deny having anything to do with
water pollution. Corn organizations say-nope it ain't us. Of course it's us. Not entirely but we play a big part in it. Here in So. Mn. we've had an extremely wet spring and
summer. Mine and my neighbors have acres and acres of short yellow corn that is starving for nitrogen. Co-op is running around side dressing corn with drop nozzles. Last fall or
this spring we all put 150#+ nitrogen on. Where did it go? The answer is obvious. It washed away with the big rain events. Either surface run-off or through our system tiling. It
all eventually made it to the Minnesota river.
 
Thank you for admitting that, no one wants to fess up, from the farmer to the homeowner that soaks on fertilizer.
 
(quoted from post at 17:32:41 07/12/18) I remember a story several years back when
they switched there baby to formula it
started doing poorly one night it started
turning blue it was rushed to the hospital
where it died. The culprit was to much
nitrate in the water. It's not as bad now as
it used to be but there's allot of salesman
out there who will sell as much fertilizer
as the can especially if there on
commission. I know they wanted me to pour it
on but doing the math with plowdown and
manure i didn't need fertilizer.check out
blue baby

Farmerwithmutt, A salesman can sell nothing unless someone is buying.
 
I say let em go hungry or buy there own land and start raising
all there own food meat milk and clothes buying nothing from
the store ever and see how easy it is
 
(quoted from post at 17:23:34 07/12/18) Nitrates come from naturally decaying matter in the soil such as decaying roots. Nitrates come from nitrogen fixing legumes like soybeans and alfalfa. Nitrates also come from manure whether it be from wildlife or farms. Nitrates come from man made fertilizers injected into the soil or applied on top. Nitrates come from sewers and heavily fertilized grass in cities and towns.

The big debate is how much nitrate comes from each source. The Des Moines water works lawsuit affected my county Along with two other counties so I have naturally paid attention to this debacle.

There are other stories besides mine but what happened was we had a few dry years and nitrates in the soil were not flushed out like normal so there was a buildup. Then we had a couple of wet years that flushed the extra nitrates out. The Raccoon river which is the Des Moines water supply had a high nitrate content from the nitrate buildup in the soil being flushed out. The ageing Des Moines water works treatment plant nitrate removal process was overloaded. The Des Moines water works sent out tree huggers to sample water coming out of tile lines that feed tributaries to the Raccoon river. These three counties happened to receive the most rainfall so these three counties were sued with the intent of a new water treatment plant being built with the monetary proceeds from the lawsuit. In the end he waterworks lost and a bunch of lawyers made a bundle.
He tree huggers blame an increase in corn acres on putting more nitrates in the groundwater because of the fact that nitrogen is heavily applied to corn acres. (Evil ethanol comes into play here) An increase in corn acres in these three counties that were sued means more corn on corn was grown or in layman’s terms, more corn grown on land that grew corn the previous year. What they don’t realize is after the corn crop is grown and harvested there is very little nitrogen left in the soil in that field. The corn used it up and nitrogen fertilizer is expensive so the sensible farmer isn’t going to apply more nitrogen than the corn crop needs. A bean crop in turn Makes nitrogen and fixes it in the soil, about a pound of nitrogen for every bushel of soybeans produced so soybeans are more of a culprit than corn so in reality a corn-bean rotation puts more nitrogen in the soil during a time of the year when that nitrogen is not used up. I can go on and on about responsible nitrogen application practices that reduce nitrogen loss but that’s not the original subject matter.

OK, let’s hear it!

OK, matter has been decaying for centuries. Why only now that farmers are using tons of chemical fertilizers plus tiling that it's become a problem? Why wasn't a problem 50 years ago before chemical fertilizers came into so much use?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 17:23:34 07/12/18) Nitrates come from naturally decaying matter in the soil such as decaying roots. Nitrates come from nitrogen fixing legumes like soybeans and alfalfa. Nitrates also come from manure whether it be from wildlife or farms. Nitrates come from man made fertilizers injected into the soil or applied on top. Nitrates come from sewers and heavily fertilized grass in cities and towns.

The big debate is how much nitrate comes from each source. The Des Moines water works lawsuit affected my county Along with two other counties so I have naturally paid attention to this debacle.

There are other stories besides mine but what happened was we had a few dry years and nitrates in the soil were not flushed out like normal so there was a buildup. Then we had a couple of wet years that flushed the extra nitrates out. The Raccoon river which is the Des Moines water supply had a high nitrate content from the nitrate buildup in the soil being flushed out. The ageing Des Moines water works treatment plant nitrate removal process was overloaded. The Des Moines water works sent out tree huggers to sample water coming out of tile lines that feed tributaries to the Raccoon river. These three counties happened to receive the most rainfall so these three counties were sued with the intent of a new water treatment plant being built with the monetary proceeds from the lawsuit. In the end he waterworks lost and a bunch of lawyers made a bundle.
He tree huggers blame an increase in corn acres on putting more nitrates in the groundwater because of the fact that nitrogen is heavily applied to corn acres. (Evil ethanol comes into play here) An increase in corn acres in these three counties that were sued means more corn on corn was grown or in layman’s terms, more corn grown on land that grew corn the previous year. What they don’t realize is after the corn crop is grown and harvested there is very little nitrogen left in the soil in that field. The corn used it up and nitrogen fertilizer is expensive so the sensible farmer isn’t going to apply more nitrogen than the corn crop needs. A bean crop in turn Makes nitrogen and fixes it in the soil, about a pound of nitrogen for every bushel of soybeans produced so soybeans are more of a culprit than corn so in reality a corn-bean rotation puts more nitrogen in the soil during a time of the year when that nitrogen is not used up. I can go on and on about responsible nitrogen application practices that reduce nitrogen loss but that’s not the original subject matter.

OK, let’s hear it!

OK, matter has been decaying for centuries. Why only now that farmers are using tons of chemical fertilizers plus tiling that it's become a problem? Why wasn't a problem 50 years ago before chemical fertilizers came into so much use?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 17:23:34 07/12/18) Nitrates come from naturally decaying matter in the soil such as decaying roots. Nitrates come from nitrogen fixing legumes like soybeans and alfalfa. Nitrates also come from manure whether it be from wildlife or farms. Nitrates come from man made fertilizers injected into the soil or applied on top. Nitrates come from sewers and heavily fertilized grass in cities and towns.

The big debate is how much nitrate comes from each source. The Des Moines water works lawsuit affected my county Along with two other counties so I have naturally paid attention to this debacle.

There are other stories besides mine but what happened was we had a few dry years and nitrates in the soil were not flushed out like normal so there was a buildup. Then we had a couple of wet years that flushed the extra nitrates out. The Raccoon river which is the Des Moines water supply had a high nitrate content from the nitrate buildup in the soil being flushed out. The ageing Des Moines water works treatment plant nitrate removal process was overloaded. The Des Moines water works sent out tree huggers to sample water coming out of tile lines that feed tributaries to the Raccoon river. These three counties happened to receive the most rainfall so these three counties were sued with the intent of a new water treatment plant being built with the monetary proceeds from the lawsuit. In the end he waterworks lost and a bunch of lawyers made a bundle.
He tree huggers blame an increase in corn acres on putting more nitrates in the groundwater because of the fact that nitrogen is heavily applied to corn acres. (Evil ethanol comes into play here) An increase in corn acres in these three counties that were sued means more corn on corn was grown or in layman’s terms, more corn grown on land that grew corn the previous year. What they don’t realize is after the corn crop is grown and harvested there is very little nitrogen left in the soil in that field. The corn used it up and nitrogen fertilizer is expensive so the sensible farmer isn’t going to apply more nitrogen than the corn crop needs. A bean crop in turn Makes nitrogen and fixes it in the soil, about a pound of nitrogen for every bushel of soybeans produced so soybeans are more of a culprit than corn so in reality a corn-bean rotation puts more nitrogen in the soil during a time of the year when that nitrogen is not used up. I can go on and on about responsible nitrogen application practices that reduce nitrogen loss but that’s not the original subject matter.

OK, let’s hear it!

OK, matter has been decaying for centuries. Why only now that farmers are using tons of chemical fertilizers plus tiling that it's become a problem? Why wasn't a problem 50 years ago before chemical fertilizers came into so much use?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 19:00:40 07/12/18) A bumper sticker I saw years ago

When you complain about the Farmer don't talk with your mouth full

Why not? It's America, I can complain whenever I want to. You see we can import food.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 16:36:58 07/12/18) I know where the nitrates are coming from downstream from Des Moines. After the remove it from their drinking water,they dump it right back in the river downstream so it's somebody else's problem.

Are they? I wouldn't be surprised but I'd like to see proof of that.'

Rick
 
here are my thoughts a while ago there was concern about nitrates and chemicals coming from farmers in minnesota polluting the mississippi river.
there was a study done and it was found that most of the chemicals were coming from the twin cities espically 24D. one of my uncles had a cabin in
park rapids which is not far from the head waters of the misssissippi river. me and his younger brother would go up there twice a year and we would
stop at st cloud and have lunch the river was clear there and you could see to the bottom. after it went through the cities it was dark and dirty.
 
Like I say, convince people that farmers are not to blame. Provable facts please!

All this garbage about let them raise their own food? Really? You want to go broke cause they did just that? Heck they are buying more and more organic and sustainably grown food every day. Careful what you wish for, you just may get it!

LOL gotta remember, when they are complaining with their mouths full of food? Good chance it is imported. 15 percent of the U.S. food supply is imported, including 50 percent of fresh fruits, 20 percent of fresh vegetables and 80 percent of seafood! We can always import more. I'm sure Canada, Mexico and Brazil will be more than happy to sell us more food.

Guys the whole point here is you cannot in todays world anger your customer base. They will go elsewhere. So no, you can no longer grow whatever you want and expect the buying public to accept it. The public can't force you to buy a certain brand of tractor........so you can't tell them what to eat. Know what YAHOO means? You Always Have Other Options! Well now the customer has other options.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 19:40:47 07/12/18)
(quoted from post at 17:23:34 07/12/18) Nitrates come from naturally decaying matter in the soil such as decaying roots. Nitrates come from nitrogen fixing legumes like soybeans and alfalfa. Nitrates also come from manure whether it be from wildlife or farms. Nitrates come from man made fertilizers injected into the soil or applied on top. Nitrates come from sewers and heavily fertilized grass in cities and towns.

The big debate is how much nitrate comes from each source. The Des Moines water works lawsuit affected my county Along with two other counties so I have naturally paid attention to this debacle.

There are other stories besides mine but what happened was we had a few dry years and nitrates in the soil were not flushed out like normal so there was a buildup. Then we had a couple of wet years that flushed the extra nitrates out. The Raccoon river which is the Des Moines water supply had a high nitrate content from the nitrate buildup in the soil being flushed out. The ageing Des Moines water works treatment plant nitrate removal process was overloaded. The Des Moines water works sent out tree huggers to sample water coming out of tile lines that feed tributaries to the Raccoon river. These three counties happened to receive the most rainfall so these three counties were sued with the intent of a new water treatment plant being built with the monetary proceeds from the lawsuit. In the end he waterworks lost and a bunch of lawyers made a bundle.
He tree huggers blame an increase in corn acres on putting more nitrates in the groundwater because of the fact that nitrogen is heavily applied to corn acres. (Evil ethanol comes into play here) An increase in corn acres in these three counties that were sued means more corn on corn was grown or in layman’s terms, more corn grown on land that grew corn the previous year. What they don’t realize is after the corn crop is grown and harvested there is very little nitrogen left in the soil in that field. The corn used it up and nitrogen fertilizer is expensive so the sensible farmer isn’t going to apply more nitrogen than the corn crop needs. A bean crop in turn Makes nitrogen and fixes it in the soil, about a pound of nitrogen for every bushel of soybeans produced so soybeans are more of a culprit than corn so in reality a corn-bean rotation puts more nitrogen in the soil during a time of the year when that nitrogen is not used up. I can go on and on about responsible nitrogen application practices that reduce nitrogen loss but that’s not the original subject matter.

OK, let’s hear it!

OK, matter has been decaying for centuries. Why only now that farmers are using tons of chemical fertilizers plus tiling that it's become a problem? Why wasn't a problem 50 years ago before chemical fertilizers came into so much use?

Rick

Several reasons, all related to ag. One reason in my opinion goes way back to the plowing of the prairies. Prairie land was covered with grass that used up the natural nitrogen in the soil. Then we dug drainage ditches and installed drain tile that drained the prairies. Those two actions alone did not add much to the nitrogen co tent of the natural rivers. Then nitrogen was applied to th soil to help corn plants but it wasn’t much because the corn of yesteryear wasn’t capable of near the yields we see today. Corn hybrids were improved and made capable of higher yields but higher yields needed more fertilizer. You see where I’m going with this. Now I’m getting on my soap box here; To save time and soil compaction in the spring farmers were and still are fall applying nitrogen in the form of anhydrous ammonia. If the soil is below 50 degrees anhydrous will stay in the nitrite form and will not move much in the soil. When the soil warms up in the spring, bacteria change the nitrite form of nitrogen into nitrate. Now it becomes water soluble and can move down into the soil and into the drainage tile. The soil can warm up before the corn is planted so the nitrate is sitting there not being used, and even if the corn is planted it doesn’t use much nitrogen until it is taller. Different hybrids need nitrogen at different beginning stages so there is no one size fits all here. I used to fall apply anhydrous but figured I lost too much and you can guess where it went. Besides, I had that money tied up for nearly a year till the crop was harvested.

I see split application as a good way to be sure allow nearly all the nitrogen applied to be used by the corn plants but it is not a perfect sure bet. Nothing is a sure bet in farming. It does cost more because of the application costs. application equipment is used more times and that equipment doesn’t run for free. Then we get into the problem of the weather screwing up application timing like this year. In my area the water samples that were heavy in livestock which is another can of worms.

There is more but I’m not getting into it anymore. Explaining this to a person who hasn’t farmed full time for a living is like a computer expert trying to explain how a computer works to a computer illiterate guy like me.
 
The whole 'Everyone is going to starve' thing is unrealistic and silly.What is happening is consumer tastes are changing when it comes to the food many people want to eat these days, no reason food
should be different from anything else times change demands for products change.That's the way things work in a free market economy and getting riled up because consumers have moved
on from what you produce to something else is a waste of time.Few people want to buy a rotary phone these days for what ever the reasons, calling the people that don't want to buy a rotary phone stupid,ignorant and saying if they don't buy a rotary phone no one will be able to talk on a phone is crazy.Same with food tastes have changed and will continue to change apparently so the people and companies that are willing to change with consumer demand will be rewarded in the market place and those that won't change and continue to produce food that is equivalent to the rotary phone will be punished in the market place as lower demand for a product means lower prices as surpluses occur.There is no Entitlement in a free market economy to keep doing or producing anything a certain way including food.When consumer demand changes you change your products meet that demand or be left behind and someone else will be supplying the market you refused to
supply.Just Basic Economics 101.
 
The fifteen million Des Moines is paying to expand its nitrate removal plant is chump change compared to the aggregate impact of fertilizer runoff. Take, for instance, <a href="http://www.noaa.gov/media-release/gulf-of-mexico-dead-zone-is-largest-ever-measured">the "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico</a>. I don't think the commercial fishermen impacted by the dead zone would consider themselves city slickers.
 
Well its pretty obvious that massive overuse of fertilizer,chemicals and antibiotics will lead to some heavy restrictions on Industrial farming and you really will hear Crying the Blues then.When Gov't brings on regulations they usually overdo it but industries that won't use good sense to regulate itself the Gov't steps in an overdoes it.That's where a lot of American
Agriculture is today.
 
"after it went through the cities it was dark and dirty."

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
 
There are some convincing salesman out
there. Look at the junk wally world sells
people don't need it but they buy anyway. By
the way you can by weed spray and fertilizer
there and no one to tell you how to properly
use it or quantity.
 
Oldtanker ...... interesting post but unfortunately, you lose credibility as soon as you start name calling. Once that happens you are just another grumpy old
guy looking for an argument. I never could figure out why people make such negative comments about others who look or think differently than they do. Human
nature for some I guess.
 
A lot of talk is happening in my state right now. I live in Ohio. Lake Erie has been having algae blooms around Toledo. Also Grand Lake St. Marys. The first place they look is the farmer, so they have regulated manure applications on farms as to times of year and amount of manure per acre and how close to waterways. What they are not talking about is the homeowner that wants that green, weed-free yard. There is more fertilizer run of from suburban yards than most farms, because the farmer has tests run to find out how much fertilizer the ground needs, the home owner does not.
 
I live in the Chesapeake Bay water shed and some restrictions on farming have been put in place here in VA,a whole lot of restrictions have been put in place in MD and sure more to come in both states.
Also it doesn't lessen what farmers are doing to point to homeowners mainly because farmers are way out number in voting strength.But be assured restrictions on the homeowners will be coming too I'm sure, already are in some places.
 
Does anyone remember years ago when "city slickers" bought rural land and at night "tankers" snuck in and dumped
toxic waste that polluted the ground water and the farmers wells? Farmers and rural people got up in arms and got it
stopped. The knife cuts two ways.
Reread the golden rule.
 
You will find in every city I have lived a lot of those "idiots" are a farmer's brothers, sisters,and cousins.
Or us, working, before we retire and move to a rural area.
 
Everybody is to blame; the city people and
even the farmers have to have their
beautiful Kentucky blue grass, otherwise
what would the neighbors say? They plant it,
they water it, they fertilize it, they spend
thousands of dollars on the mower, they mow
the grass and then what do they do? They
throw it in the trash! I hate bluegrass!
Plant buffalo grass. It needs no water, just
rain. If it doesn't rain, it doesn't die,it
just turns brown and goes dormant. Blugrass
dies quick without water every few days.
 
From what I see here 1 farmers are not going to waste money on extra nitrogen they don't need.
2 The extra corn that has been planted is going to ethanol and Bio diesel because mandates on renewable energy.
3 Nitrogen occurs naturally when plants decompose, so after a dry spell of course the nitrogens have built up and then released
later.
4 It's always a blame game like one person causes all the problems. City vs Country ect
 
I live close to Grand Lake. I do not think they know what casuses the problem. Just guessing. Remember when problen was first showing up they were blaming the soap makers like P & G. They found out they had too deep pockets to mess with so they switched to the farmer that was barly making a living knowing he did not have the money to fight them. It is all about somebody taking a guess about something they know nothing about and getting the poorest people to pay for their experiments. I am not against clean water and believe there is too much fertilizer put on but don't believe them that it is the problem they say it is. If they ever find out the cause it will be something entirely different that no one expects.
 
Excellent post! I farm and raise cattle, so I see every day how things go. We apply what we feel we need to grow X bushels per acre, but the weather can change all of that. Sometimes fertilizer and chemicals stay put and are utilized, sometimes they get washed away. I believe if something to that effect is our narrative to the public, then the extremists on each side of the issue will finally be called out for their hyperbole. Maybe then we will gain some understanding between rural and urban, and come up with a workable compromise for everyone.
 
(quoted from post at 05:41:57 07/13/18) Oldtanker ...... interesting post but unfortunately, you lose credibility as soon as you start name calling. Once that happens you are just another grumpy old
guy looking for an argument. I never could figure out why people make such negative comments about others who look or think differently than they do. Human
nature for some I guess.

Name calling? Unless you are referring to me using city slicker? That I used because many on here often refer to the general population as city slickers. Often they forget that the city slicker built their car/truck, designed the boards inside their computers and did other things they can't do.

Rick
 
A lot of fairly good sized cities have gotten the water from 600 feet deep wells....several per city, why not Des Moines? Leo
 
http://www.nutrientstrategy.iastate.edu/

Spend some time here. It is all facts and you will learn a lot, including on how hard it is to control nitrates.
 
(quoted from post at 07:42:45 07/15/18) Didn?t know there was a difference between rain and water.

In that case WGM you had better not run for a position on a water district.
 
Have a body of water such as a lake with excessive nutrient problems??

Just use a D10 Cat dozer with the deepest sub-soiler it can handle and run it deep along the shoreline.
You will have homeowners howling mad a 1/4 mile away that their sewer "systems" are not working.
 

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