So it looks like we are entering into a trade war with china. We also have tariffs on Mexico And Canada products. My question is where does all this money collected on 25% tariffs go? Can it go towards paying down our debt, or does it disappear into a campaign fund? Does anyone even keep track of it. It could be considered income, shouldn't it be subject to income taxes? Think I better head back to the pump room, to much thinking for now. Al
 
The government imposing the the tariff collects the tariff fee as I understand it. As far as the US government goes that money will disappear into a black hole of projects designed to court blocks of voters. I have not bought a durable part (steel made) since the fur got flying in the last couple of weeks but expect parts and whole goods prices to rise before too long. The small bit of good news is the local elevator claims a lot of its soybean volume does not go to China so in theory there should not be a big smack upside the head in negative basis. Further, I have heard there will be a lot of third party handling in terms of soybean shipment to China so on the surface they are not "American" soybeans. We will have to see what the reality turns out to be. I know we are not supposed to speak political names here but I think this is all being done by the US government to force the Chinese to the bargaining table. I think that the Chinese have more to lose under current circumstances so they will blink first. Again, we shall see.
 
In the past any tariffs collected went into the general fund.

With all the screaming on tariffs people are just showing how little they know about history. Until the income tax was leveed ,tariffs where one of the main sources of income for the US government. That worked for the first 150 years of our country. We have had 100 years of income taxes. I say dump the income taxes and go back to tariffs.

World trade benefits everyone but the average worked in this country. Multinational companies could care less about the average person in this country. If they can get child labors in Asia to make their products for pennies they are all for it.

The US steel Unions drove the wages beyond being reasonable in the US but the rules on manufacturing in this country are the biggest reason many companies move production out of this country. Many of these rules are good ones, example would be rules on dumping hazardous materials. The trouble is many of them are just political pay off to certain groups. Companies get tired of it and leave.
 
We have actually been on the loosing side of trade wars for many years with all leaders to afraid of bad press to challenge them. They would rather our jobs go away than have the press blame them for the problems. Our purchasing of other countries products are now needed by other countries more than ever before which means their threats are just noise to rile us into missing the facts. Fear Not!
 

It is about time we stopped carrying those other countries on our backs via the trade imbalances. There will be negotiations and we will get a better shake then things will settle down. It is a bit like negotiating a new contract with your boss - you always take a risk when you make demands, but if you are good at negotiation and you have something of real value to trade, you will do well.
 
The steel workers are not entirely to blame. I am no commie lib but decades of abuse raining down from Andrew Carnegie via Henry Frick set the stage for a forceful counter response to poor working conditions and a pittance for wages. Also, a lot of pay increases got eaten up by local business every time a wage increase went into effect. My mother had relatives that lived in industrial towns and a lot of people certainly did not live like royalty. The problem is there can never be a happy medium between management and labor. It always is an extreme at one end of the scale or the other.
 
well if it is any consolation i hear that the production of BIRD CAGE LINERS and FISH WRAP how dropped wayyyyy down lol ....
 
Speaking of tariffs I saw this chart yesterday. Why so lopsided?
a271410.jpg
 

When push comes to shove, WE in the U.S. can survive better WITHOUT products from China than China can survive WITHOUT food from the U.S.
 
Term limits would (over time) solve all such issues.

That said, absent revolution, none of us will ever see term limits.

Dean
 
I agree, the pendulum swings, and usually too far. America has a tough time achieving a reasonable balance between management and labor. I think history will show it has currently swung a bit too far, and as a result there will be a backlash. It has happened that way historically over the last 100 years.
 
If the tariff's had worked that well there wouldn't have been such an imbalance between the state's and there wouldn't have been a war to keep the money coming in. History is much harder when you ask the why question from all involved.
 
How about Zero tariffs for all imports and exports from & to all countries. That includes from countries that we buy from. That would be to easy.
 
That would be the economic end for more than one or two countries. The US after WWII was totally economicaly self-sufficient . Then everyone started to screw around with the formulas. Greed is a real driving force.
 
M-Man the south had almost zero manufacturing. It was that not tariffs that caused a strain on their economy. Yes they could have bought some things cheaper from England and France over the Northern manufactures. The issue was their business model actually did not work well. The production from slave labor was not very efficient.

Tariffs where a big reason for the War of Independence but NOT the Civil War. That was pure state rights over Federalism and the issue was slavery not tariffs.
 
There seems to be enough knowledge here on the forum to solve the trade deficit issue with China. What the heck are all of us doing fixing old tractors and planting beans? Anyways, my two cents on the subject is this ...... perhaps the problem exists simply because North American consumers want inexpensive products and China is the country that is producing what we want. That's what started the problem and that's what continues to fuel it. Correct me if I'm wrong with my theory.
 
That comparison has a serious logical problem. We and our enemies had
bombed the manufacturing capabilities of the rest of the developed
world to oblivion. We helped them get their economies back on their
feet, and we made money doing it. Trade wars follow the Smoot-Hawley
economical isolationalist thinking that somehow the rest of the world
is cheating and we have to make them pay for it.

We have seen this pattern of though before and we know where it leads.
Everyone loses.
 
Here in Alabama Honda builds cars , Mercedes Benz builds cars. Hyundai builds cars. They export a bunch of em. Who collects tariffs on them? Building country or country that owns the business? If a Mercedes goes to Germany...........but built in Alabama?!?
 
I just hate seeing anyone in the world using food as a bargaining tool. There is such a surplus of grain (food) in the world. No one should be going hungry.
 
Shoot way back when I was in high school we where taught that more goods need to leave the U.S. then what we import. If that does not happen the economy will suffer. Tariffs are/where to be put in place so that the U.S. would export more the new import. Simple economy class taught that back in the 60s. But sadly those in D.C. and corporate America do not see that or do not care about it. There should never be more Tariffs for good come in then going out. So by putting tariffs on good coming in that is to off set the loss of what we do not send out
 
Tariffs along with property tax is how our government was financed before Federal Income Tax was stuck to us.
 
In theory, if protective tariffs work, the government does not collect them. The whole point is to raise the prices of imported products to the point that they can no longer compete with domestic products. Foreign products that can't compete with domestic goods are never imported and hence generate no tax revenue. Note that [i:654c4848f0]protective[/i:654c4848f0] tariffs are quite different from [i:654c4848f0]revenue[/i:654c4848f0] tariffs, which are collected to generate revenue for the government, not to discourage imports.
 
> Term limits would (over time) solve all such issues. That said, absent revolution, none of us will ever see term limits.

Actually Michigan has had term limits for decades and is a textbook example of why they're a bad idea. What you get with term limits is a revolving door of politicians going from local to state and back to local office. And because they never stay in one job long enough to become good at it, they are almost 100 percent reliant on lobbyists to understand how to do their jobs. And of course, when they've run out of elected offices to hold, they become lobbyists themselves.
 
Exactly.

Effective term limits would limit parasites to a maximum number of years in government before getting a job in the real world.

Of course, such would likely require Constitutional amendment(s).

Get it done!

Dean
 
Very good question, Gtractorfan.

Fortunately, we now have a leader who understands such questions and is attempting to rectify such injustices while the rest of government kicks and screams.

Dean
 
They can grow soybeans in Argentina, as soon as china builds the infrastructure, and provides the equipment, and they can do that quickly. We have been shot in the foot!
 
Why not term limit every one? Term limit your doctor, your lawyer,your teacher.Everyone should be a rookie! Term limit you... your engineeing expertise is just a detriment to new ideas. The idea that our government officials do not need to know anything about the subjects they are approving is about as silly as the idea that we need to fire all engineers and start over from scratch every 8 years.
 
(quoted from post at 15:07:58 06/23/18) Term limits would (over time) solve all such issues.

That said, absent revolution, none of us will ever see term limits.

Dean

Term limits can be enforced by the voters if they would just do it. Do not need a law.
 
Setting aside the fact that this won't last long, because according to His Twitterness, "trade wars are easy to win". So we should be bringing China to its knees any day now and they will beg for mercy and cave in to His every demand.

No, you can't use the money to pay down the national debt because these tariffs will ADD to the debt. This is something I'm still not clear that His Twitterness has the mental capacity to understand: Tariffs are paid by US, not them. You are raising taxes on your own businesses and people.

So ever $1 US businesses spend in tariffs is one more expense dollar written off on income taxes. Which reduces taxable income and therefore tax revenue collected by the government.

Also, the products that we DO make and export are getting hammered by import tariffs in the other countries, reducing demand, profit, and (guess what?) taxable income. We take it in the shorts again.

Also, tariffs are one thing, but also China is implementing punishment policies that direct spending away from US goods and commodities. Soybeans are clearly a target, China wants to redirect as much soy buying away from US-produced in an effort to hurt American farmers as much as possible. Clearly, they are hoping by targeting already weak sectors of the US economy for deliberate pain, political pressure will build on His Twitterness. I think this is short-sighted on their part, He doesn't care what sectors are hurt, he will simply declare himself the winner as he always does and in spite of what the data shows.

Grouse
 
Do you really think only America grows crops? I suggest you look at the videos on youtube of the ag equipment being
used around the world. Have you ever visited the farms across the globe? Teach people that they can eat well without
America and then be prepared for a surprise.
 
I have already term limited myself.

Student, mechanic, engineer, professional manager, skilled trade, attorney, the list goes on....

The point, of course, is those paid by the taxpayers must not be allowed to secure parasitic positions wherein their livelihood is in conflict of interest with those who pay their salaries.

Simple.

Dean
 
If you look back at things income tax is not really legal in the first place. The government changed the laws so they could put income tax in place. Before they changed the law income tax did not pass so it goes to show you the government has not ben on the up and up for decades
 
Isn't it a shame that all of the real experts on world economy, tariffs, and balance of trade are busy cutting hair, driving trucks, and raising vegetables? Too busy to take over and really show them how it is done!
 
Around 90 million acres of soybeans growing in 2018 in the US. Normally 35 % are exported. If you are a grain buyer from China and you can buy our beans with a 25 % tariff surcharge or South American beans with no tariff surcharge you are not going to buy many US produced soybeans if any. The Midwest bean farmer in 2018 is going to take a big drop in farm income all to to equalize tariffs from foreign countries if push comes to shove. With no export business we could have a large oversupply of beans comes fall 2018 driving down prices lower than they are. South Dakota was on the news couple days ago and said they had projected soybean income losses to farmers at 625 million dollars from tariffs ....... that is just one state in the Midwest.
 
Do not disagree, mule, and you are beginning to see that now.

Though it has taken entirely too long, the American People have had enough.

Stay tuned.

Dean
 
> Just like tariffs, we've seen the status quo without term limits. Time to give it a try.

If you want to give term limits a try, just come to Michigan and drive on our decrepit highways for a couple of days. Hopefully you won't be killed when <a href="https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2018/01/31/ominous-winter-freeway-threat-696-southfield-flying-concrete/1084992001/">a chunk of concrete comes flying through your windshield</a>.
 
> Effective term limits would limit parasites to a maximum number of years in government before getting a job in the real world.

Are you saying you would prefer callow and incompetent legislators like <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Courser">Todd Courser</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Gamrat">Cindy Gamrat</a>, Michigan's poster children for abolishing term limits?
 
Another huge factor in all of this is the effect of modern containerized shipping to the global economy. Before this the cost of shipping products long distances essentially created a tariff automatically due to the high transportation cost. It was better for a manufacturer to buy from local suppliers because even though less expensive sources were out there it cost too much to get their product to his dock. However, in the last few decades the near universal implementation of containerized shipping has for the most part eliminated this cost disparity, especially for the transporation of smaller items. The per-piece freight cost difference for a manufacturer in the USA to get a truckload of parts from halfway across the country compared to a truckload of parts from the other side of the planet is very small. This of course has lead to an increase in sourcing parts from regions where the production costs are lower, even if it is on a different continent.
 
JD; As I stated it's always best to study both sides of history to get the why. Yes the south was lacking in industry. What it did have was agricultural products. In other words mostly farming just like your business. It was also an export driven economy. That is what the Morrel(not sure of spelling) tax targeted. The heavily populated north needed the revenue. Exports from the south was a way to get it. The war was State's rights- not slavery. If this weren't true there wouldn't have been military intervention to keep some northern state's from seceding from the Union as well. That war is over and it is still being re written and erased today. All I'm saying is study history and look at both sides so we don't make the same mistakes. The Victor always gets to write history from their point of view.
 


Our city went to term limits and now all we get are people who have a grudge and want only a special project put through. They dont do any long term planning, no fixing, only do the one thing on their list and then get out. Since they dont care about long term, the spend all the funds on short term projects to gain favor. No street or infrastruture, no police or fire, Forget about water and sewer.

But they push through their pet project....Dont care about anything else.

Term limits dont always work the way you think they should work. They can cause rapid deterioration. Every one fights and trades for their corrupt project, but more so than with out term limits. Again,, be very very careful what you wish for.
 
Term limits in Michigan resulted in a revolving door to lobbyists. 2 terms then go get a job selling to the legislature. And nobody knows what
they are doing, no memory of past legislative work, they keep rehashing the same old crap over and over.
 
If China buys those south American beans, where will the folks who were going to buy those south American beans going to get theirs?
 
I suspect we'll redirect most of the beans to other markets. The local CNH dealer sponsors a agricultural economic pontificater on the radio every morning. either the 3.5 and 4.0s I got in economics when I was in college was a lie, or the laws of economics have changed since I got out of school or this economic guru has a bigger hate for nnalert than a knowledge of economics. Yes the tariff will reduce our exports to China, this doesn't mean the total market will be smaller, it means China will source their beans somewhere else. It might also mean the price China pays may be forced up if the supply of non US beans isn't enough to satisfy their needs. Other countries may export their beans at China market prices and buy our beans at sub-China market prices, eventually someone will get the bright idea to buy US beans wave their hands over them while mumbling some enchanting phrase and decide they are no longer US beans and sell them to China at a profit. We may be in the midst of a great learning experience here. I can see where the rational for "fair trade" is valid, BUT if trade becomes lopsided, if one side exports say 375 Billion more than they purchase it could be argued that that is not a fair trading relationship, the next thing is to examine the percentage of all exports you make and if you have one trading partner that accounts for more than 25-30% of your GDP and you're not balancing exports and imports with them you're setting yourself up to initiate a trade war that you're probably going to loose. If I'm not a complete moron I figure the US trade deficit with China amounts to about 28% of China's GDP and so much of the product China sells to us is manufactured so it might not be as easy for them to find a buyer for those goods, just about anyone in the world can eat soy beans but people who don't have cell service don't have much use for I phones, people with out cars don't need tires and other auto parts, parts made specifically for American cars aren't going to sell well out side of the US. It's nice to have a trading partner that runs a trade deficit with you, but it might not a sustainable plan for the long term and for you to maintain a fair trading relationship with another country may mean you establish a trading relationship where they need you as much as you need them.

On the bright side with all the whining I'm hearing from Washington about the Tariffs we may of finally found a tax that our politicians don't like! As long as both sides don't get involved in a standoff and ride the world economy into the ground waiting for the other side to fold we should be okay.
 

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