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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank

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oifmedic

06-13-2018 06:51:31




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Good morning, I have a 1959 801 Ford Powermaster that I inherited from my dad. I was having issues getting it cranked with the old carburetor (I thought) so I bought a brand new Zenith carburetor to replace the old one. I installed the new carburetor and still cannot get the tractor cranked. I replaced the points, spark plugs, and coil so it is getting fire but not gas. when I try to crank it, I pull the choke and fuel seems to be flowing and seems to be flooding because when I pull the hose that connects the carburetor to the air filter and gas flows out. still doesn't seem like gas is getting to the plugs because it doesn't even try to fire off. I have also cleaned the air filter and checked to oil level. Any insight on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

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Clarence Slydell

06-17-2018 10:18:23




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

You got it.



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JMOR

06-17-2018 07:31:31




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeDo you mean, as in , with a good starter/cables/connections/battery, they will 'crank' perfectly well even with no carb at all.....just won't start? :)



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Clarence Slydell

06-17-2018 04:57:15




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Cranking problems caused by innocent carburetors sure are tough to diagnose.



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showcrop

06-16-2018 09:32:20




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
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Bret, that, or they just disregard anything that is not going towards their preconceived idea of what the problem is. Such as I know that all of my connections are good so it has to be the starter.



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Bret4207

06-16-2018 07:46:23




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

One of the maddening things about the internet is that you can't just show someone what to do or see what they mean when they describe something, or even be able to tell if they read your post! I'd bet a pug wire or 2 is in the wrong spot or someone messed the timing up but good. That or something is grounding out the spark intermittently.



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showcrop

06-15-2018 11:26:28




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
When an up draft carbureted engine does not start on 3-4 seconds cranking, as soon as cranking stops the gas that is in the manifold is coming back down into the carburetor and will run out if the air inlet is open. The test to whether or not it is getting gas is if the plugs are wet. If the plugs are dry it is not flooding. As stated, cranking is what your starter does.



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JMOR

06-15-2018 08:39:48




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIn less than 5 minutes he could have "walked" the wires around the cap in 4 easy steps as I told him......I don't know why he hasn't eliminated that possibility before spending so much more time on other things??



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Bret4207

06-15-2018 07:39:06




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
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Okay, no offense, but what in blazes do you mean by "randomly cranked"? Are you trying to say it fired a few times or that the engine turned over in a random fashion as you hit the starter numerous times?

FYI- if it's backfiring your timing is way off or you have the plug wires on wrong.



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docmirror

06-14-2018 12:18:56




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
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If you follow the instructions I gave, and the timing is off, or reversed, or something, you will get pops from the exh and possibly a pop or small flame from the carb intake. This is an indication that your firing order is right, but the location indexed on the dist is off. At that point, we'll have to go back and time the engine by the compr stroke of #1 cyl. But, do the carb cleaner spritz test first.

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JMOR

06-14-2018 11:10:37




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeThat would POSSIBLY be correct, but not necessarily. #1 marking on cap may no longer be correct, because in the last 50 years someone could have installed distributor differently than factor line worker did. Therefore the actual #1 could be any one of the 4 cap towers/sockets. If you are able to find TDC-compression stroke, you can then see where rotor points & that will be today's #1 position. If not you can do trial and error easy enough. Move all 4 wires, keeping 1243 order, one position CW & try to start. If no joy, the continue one more position, and repeat until it starts or you are back to starting point with #1 wire in marked cap#1 position.

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JMOR

06-14-2018 08:15:59




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
" I checked the firing order, 1243 with the #1 toward the radiator"

What in your own words does "#1 toward radiator" mean to you?

You do realize that #1 may be in any one of 4 positions on the cap, right? But only one of those 4 positions will be correct for running properly. How did you determine that singular position?



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oifmedic

06-14-2018 10:21:43




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to JMOR, 06-14-2018 08:15:59  
I did some research online and searched the 601 and 801 shop manual. there isn't a lot of information online pertaining to the 801's and if there is it is very contradictive. from what I could gather from the shop manual is, the firing order goes 1243 with the #1 sparkplug being closest to the radiator. so the firing order would be from front of the engine to the back of the engine 1,2,4,3.

Now, looking at the distributer from the side, the #1 is marked on the distributor as lower left and rotates clockwise. so #1 lower left, #2 upper left, #4 upper right, and #3 lower right. Is this correct?

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docmirror

06-14-2018 07:59:16




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Forget about the carb for now. It was the last thing you changed, and is likely the problem, but - lets see if the rest of the stuff needed to run is present. You will need a can of carb cleaner(any brand), blade screwdriver, a plug wrench or socket, and a battery charger. A helper is nice, but not required.

1. Turn the fuel off at the tank. Leave it off.

2. Remove all plugs, and attach the plug wires to them, lay the plugs on the top of the engine so they are touching metal.

3. Remove the air cleaner hose to the carb intake.

4. Set the throttle to about 3/4 open.

5. Set the choke to off, or open(no choke).

6. Leave fuel OFF. Crank the engine for a bit, and check for spark on EACH plug.
7. Let the battery recharge for a bit, and the cyl to dry out.
8. If all plugs showed spark, put them back in and attach plug wires.

9. While the helper is cranking the engine, spritz carb cleaner into the carb intake from about 3-5" past the intake. The engine should fire a bit, and run rough while you are spritzing.

10. If the engine fires, remove the carb and diagnose why you aren't getting fuel to the main or idle jets. Most likely something in the float, or needle and seat which allows fuel to be delivered to the float bowl.

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oifmedic

06-14-2018 10:26:46




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to docmirror, 06-14-2018 07:59:16  
Thank you, I will try that this evening.



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riveroadrat

06-13-2018 19:37:46




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
I havent heard any good things about those NEW carbs. Did you keep your old carb?



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oifmedic

06-14-2018 07:15:45




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to riveroadrat, 06-13-2018 19:37:46  
yes I still have to old carb.



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Retired Farmer

06-13-2018 18:01:53




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Did you replace the condenser?



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oifmedic

06-14-2018 07:25:12




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to Retired Farmer, 06-13-2018 18:01:53  
Yes, replaced deteriorated wiring, distributer cap and rotor button, new points, new condenser, new coil, new battery, new sparkplugs, new carburetor, new fuel hose and shut off valve. I have read that some of these tractors have a positive ground, not sure if that would have anything to do with it not running, but mine is not positive grounded currently. I did get it to fire off a few days ago and then again last night, but it just randomly cranked, I didn't do anything different than I had been doing. It was running rough and high RPM's, I tried to adjust the idle screw but it was backfiring so I turned it off. couldn't get it to crank again. I checked the firing order, 1243 with the #1 toward the radiator.

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jeffcat

06-13-2018 16:36:58




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  

Not saying you have this problem.....have had two machines in so many months that ran somewhat... but pretty crappy. Hope your float bowls don't look like these. Both carbs needed a good cleaning and the atomizer tubes drilled with #77 drills. That is Very tinny. Both run like aces now.

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oifmedic

06-14-2018 07:29:22




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to jeffcat, 06-13-2018 16:36:58  
I have replaced the old carb with a new zenith carb.



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Bret4207

06-13-2018 11:02:27




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
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If it ran 3 days ago and hasn't run since then I'f look at the fuel system first. Use a little starting fluid sprayed into carb and see if it fires. If it does then you have some sort of fuel blockage. It's very, very common for these tractors to have crap in the tank that floats around and clogs up the outlet. See what kind of fuel flow you get by pulling the plug at the bottom of carb. It should run out in a good healthy stream. When it ran 3 days ago, did it stop on it's own or did you shut it off?

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MSM

06-13-2018 09:20:46




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
If the tractor has been setting, try a couple of squirts of oil in each cylinder. Cylinders could be worn and dry and not drawing enough vacuum to pull the fuel into the cylinders.



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Russ from MN

06-13-2018 09:32:20




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to MSM, 06-13-2018 09:20:46  
I had to oil the cylinders on a Wisconsin once before it would start. I was wondering if a person would tow start it so it spins over faster if the oil from the crank would splash up and lube the cylinders, but a little oil on top is probably better. That is why when I prime an engine I always use mixed gas.



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oifmedic

06-13-2018 09:29:42




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to MSM, 06-13-2018 09:20:46  
It fired off and ran for about 2 minutes 3 days ago and hasn't ran since.



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jimg.allentown

06-13-2018 08:56:31




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
For sure the most expensive way to fix a problem is to start changing parts. You might be better off doing diagnostics before replacing everything in sight. Check spark.
Check compression.
Check timing.
Check for obstructions in intake or exhaust.

An engine only needs 3 things to run:

1) Compression

2) properly timed spark

3) a satisfactory fuel and air mixture.

If you have those 3 things, the engine WILL run.

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oifmedic

06-13-2018 09:27:01




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to jimg.allentown, 06-13-2018 08:56:31  
It has compression and spark from the plugs, I pulled all plugs, they are not wet and they spark when I touch them to metal. so my thought is maybe the fuel and air mixture. any ideas what to do in that case?



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jimg.allentown

06-13-2018 11:25:18




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 09:27:01  
Sounds like the fuel is not coming through the manifold to the cylinders. Could be a major vacuum leak as in a manifold gasket. Could also be a restriction in the intake system suck as a mouse nest, wasp nest, or even a shop towel that got drawn into the intake. Try a shot of carb cleaner or a spray of gas through the intake and see if it fires on that. If so, you need to look into why no fuel is getting into the cylinders. Strange things can go on with carburetors as well. Simple things like a venturi installed upside down so that it doesn't line up with fuel passages. Or a plugged or stuck needle and seat. Or even restricted exhaust.

Are you absolutely certain that the timing is close enough to run? Pull #1 plug and bring it up on compression. Rotor in distributor should point to #1 on the cap. Just having spark is not enough. It has to be at the right time as well.

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Greg1959

06-13-2018 08:47:07




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Open the fuel valve on the bottom of tank.



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oifmedic

06-13-2018 09:28:39




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to Greg1959, 06-13-2018 08:47:07  
Its open, fuel is good to the carb but not from carb to the plugs.



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old

06-13-2018 08:40:22




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
First off you need to learn some simple terms and when and how to use them. Cranks means the engine is turning over to try to start. So it is cranking over but not starting right?? That said trouble shoot then parts NEVER the other way around or you will add to the problem plain and simple.
#1 check and make sure you have a good blue/white spark at the center wire of the distributor and at the 4 plug wires that will jump a 1/4 inch gap or more. No spark means point are dirty or gaped wrong or not getting power to the coil.
#2 pull the carb drain plug and make sure you get a good steady flow of gas that will fill a pint jar in less then 3 minutes. No or slow gas work you way back to where it flows good. #3 pull the air cleaner tube off and hold you hand over the carb while cranking it over with the ignition on. You should both feel a good suction and also get gas on your hand. If either does not happen you may have low compression or a vacuum leak. Or it may even try to start.
#4 check the spark plugs and make sure there not wet. Wet plugs mean fouled plugs and foul plugs cannot fire. Now days I use NGK3112 plugs because they seem to hold up better

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oifmedic

06-13-2018 09:33:17




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to old, 06-13-2018 08:40:22  
I have done all of the above and all is good. I think the issues is fuel is not getting from the carb to the plugs. I haven't checked to see if the spark is 1/4 inch or more. I will try this afternoon. thanks



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old

06-13-2018 10:05:56




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 09:33:17  
If you have held your hand over the air intake of the carb and it does not at least try to fire and or you hand does not get gas on it then you have an odd problem. Have you tried some starter fluid?? And yes the spark has to jump a 1/4 inch gap or more nothing less then that.



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Steve@Advance

06-13-2018 08:15:03




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Check for spark at the plugs, not just at the coil.

Check the timing by bringing #1 up on compression stroke, TDC. The rotor should be pointing at the #1 cap terminal. Check the firing order just to say you did.

A good test of the integrity of the valves, valve timing, compression, is to remove and ground the coil wire, have an assistant crank the engine while holding your hand tightly over the air intake of the carb. You should get a strong, steady vacuum, and have gas on your hand when done.

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David G

06-13-2018 07:41:54




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
I would agree with the others, just because there are new parts does not mean it has spark.

Time to do some troubleshooting before throwing more parts at it.

First question, when did it last run, and what ALL have you done to it since then?



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oifmedic

06-13-2018 10:17:14




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to David G, 06-13-2018 07:41:54  
I had it running last fall. There were some shorts in some of the wiring and some had burnt almost into so I replaced those that were deteriorated. I replaced the coil, points, spark plugs, new battery, replaced gas line from the tank to the carb and bought a new carb. cleaned the air filter and ensured the oil level was correct. I pulled the spark plugs out one at a time, leaving them attached to the wires and checked for spark and it is good. Right after I replaced the carb, it fired off one time but the idle was very high so I turned it off and I checked the adjustment specs in the manual and adjusted them to the specs it suggested and it hasn't ran since.

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russ1

06-13-2018 07:30:06




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Have you checked to be sure it is getting a spark? Unless your new points are a good nrand they may not be making contact properly.



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Bret4207

06-13-2018 07:14:35




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont cr in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Are the valves set properly? Are the plug wires in the correct positions? Is the exhaust clear of obstructions? Does it fire at all? Is the timing anywhere near correct? By "cranked" I assume you mean it won't start?



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Billy Shafer

06-13-2018 07:09:21




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 Re: 801 Powermaster New carburetor but tractor still wont crank in reply to oifmedic, 06-13-2018 06:51:31  
Have you checked compression.



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