Thoughts on the '21 T Touring--Carvel Minne

Carvel Minne was kind of enough to ask about the ’21 model T Touring that’s taking up space in my garage. So here’s the lowdown, with probably more information than you really want to know.

Bought the car non-running, had been sitting for about 20 years. Shortly after getting it home I actually fired it up, a noisy, smoky and terrifying experience. I’d previously had no experience with an antique car. I quickly shut it off.

Some issues that came to light right away:

No neutral in the tranny. Car was up on jack stands when I got the motor going, so that was good—because if you’re going to start this car with all wheels on the ground, you’d better be ready to go somewhere right away.

Pretty good clunk in rear end. Will need to come apart and renew whatever antique parts need to be replaced or rebuilt.

Brakes: Condition unknown. Probably doesn’t have any.

Tires and spare: All in good condition, tread-wise. Look very old, however. Probably needs all new tires.

Wheels: These are all wooden-spoke wheels. No, never had any experience with these, either. They are holding together, look dry-rotted. I’m guessing one good bump in my driveway and they’ll start coming apart. Old wood can be very strong, but maybe not THAT strong.

Interior: Let’s stick to the mechanical issues, ok? (actually, not terrible. Front seat is passable, rear seat has been eaten up by mice or squirrels or both. Nothing a heavy blanket won’t cure for the time being)

Motor: I didn’t run it long enough to know much about it. My friend who builds high-end restorations and street rods from original cars probably would not have started it to begin with. Knowing he would rebuild it completely, it wouldn’t matter to him if it ran or not. I’m not my friend. I wanted to hear it come to life. The radiator looks shot, however.

Body: I like the way it looks. I wasn’t looking to make a show car. It all holds together pretty well and looks straight. No major rust, and paint is faded but it’s there. If the mechanical restoration comes together so that I have a running and stopping car that can be driven more than five miles, the body will stay the way it is.

So, to help further my project and make contact with other like-minded individuals, I’ve joined the local chapter of the Model T club. Good move. Great people, very passionate about these cars, lots and lots of real-world knowledge and expertise. They’ve been a big help, although I really haven’t done anything with my car yet. Just knowing they’re there is enough.

So here is where I am: Car will need a lot of work and a big infusion of money to get it back on the road. I know this to be true. Time and money, the age-old dilemma. I can plug away at it, with help from the club, get the parts I need, and replace them and fix the car as time permits. OR….

Sell the car as-is. Take the money from the sale, make up the difference out of my own funds, and buy a running, driving Touring car. What prompted this shift in thinking was a Florida car like mine—but much nicer—that I recently saw for $9400. It sold pretty quickly—being advertised in the national Hemmings Motor News in the pages with the antique cars. My car—along with its intitial purchase price, would fast top out at $9400 or even more before it was roadworthy. What makes this option attractive is that the money may be more or less in the long run, but the savings in time would be enormous (yes, I like tinkering, but I’m sure ANY T would allow me ample opportunities to do that).

There is a third option, but I don’t know what it is. I guess I can just do what I’ve been doing—which is letting the car sit. I am not really attached to this car, but I’d like to see something come of it. No one who likes old Ford model Ts gets into them expecting a big payday. They are similar to old tractors that way. We like them for what they are—a throwback to a time not many of us remember. Just an iconic old car that somehow still gets down the road under its own power. On a more positive note, this car has a valid title and is legal in that respect. It’s often difficult to get a good title to an antique car. And soon I’ll get a lesson on driving a real, running model T, courtesy of my club.

Sorry for the novel, just thinking out loud here. I welcome any thoughts, from model T owners or anyone else. The attached photo is from a few days after buying it. Hadn't yet started it. It's a lot dustier now, with some stuff piled in front. Have had the car for about 4 years now.

Great post with lots of info, I can believe that those costs can pile up pretty quick. I've been told that the market for that real old
stuff has dropped off considerably over the past 10-20 years. The newer generations of vintage car lovers are more into the muscle car era
and then even back into the 50's somewhat.

What a sweet ole ford! I'd love to drive it around. Or park it in MY garage! Gotta go to work now I'll try to get back!

Is that original paint?

If so, I would keep it that way. Fix the mechanical, which may be easier than you think, start venturing out in it!

Possibly the reason it smoked, someone had wisely pickled the cylinders with oil before storing it.

I agree with Horsie. It seems that most of the people that grew up with these really old cars and had sentimental attachments to them have mostly passed away, or are too old to drive or work on them now. That has dropped the value. Besides, Model T's really only average around 35 MPH which is not fast enough on a lot of roads. Maybe fun around town.

good morning red, great post and pic, I loved the part about being ready to go somewhere when you hit the starter :lol: or did you hand crank it? the 3 options red, bear in mind this is just my opinion, looking at the pic you posted you have a nice straight car, I don't see any body damage, I don't see anything missing, and you have the title.

the other very big plus you have going here is your local model T club, which is tied to model T clubs all over the U.S., as you know from being on this forum red the knowledge and experiance here is amazing. that is a huge resourse for you as you move along on the rebuild.

i am SURE there is more than one model T forum online, and in todays world we are just a click away from answers (google is your friend) post a question or i'm looking for? on here or the club, or any model T forum and in minutes or hours someone comes back wiith your answer. what i'm trying to get to here red with all this rambling you won't be working on the old girl alone, you'll have hundreds of people watching and helping you out in any way they can.

now as john wayne used to say lets get down to the n*t cutting here: do you have the desire/passion to get going on this?

is the old girl peeking through all the stuff you have piled around her, saying "come on get me out of here" i want to get back on the road

red i'm busy right now with my business work but every day I sneak in a few minutes, a 1/2 hour, sometimes more on my m5 rebuild, trying to get something done every day.

what where your plans when you bought the car red?
why are those plans on hold?
have those plans changed?

get the old girl out red, put her up on jack stands, pull the wheels, take them in to your buddys at the T club, if they check out good (pull the tires off) put them in a tub of boiled linseed oil to soak for the duration of the build, longer the better.

just my 2 cents worth red, don't let the old girl sit and rot, and my vote is get her up and running and back on the road, every piece of old iron has a story to tell, let her talk!!

I have a 1918. Mine actually has wheel brakes thanks to the aftermarket Rocky Mountain brake kit. I also have a Ruckstell two-speed rear
axle. I have been told the T is kind of useless for highway touring without it, but I am no expert.

I don’t know much about the Ruckstell, I’ve never driven one. What I was told was the Ruckstell geared it down so The T could have enough power to make it through he mud and up steep hills. Maybe there was a Ruckstell that geared it up too? Here is also a three speed add on transmission that goes behind the regular transmission that was used on the TT trucks. He owner of the T coupe I am working on has a TT with that transmission setup. He said the dangerous part about the three speed was its effect on braking. The T’s brake was in the transmission and if the three speed was in neutral it had no brakes at the pedal but the emergency brakes lever should be pulled if the driver had the presence of mind to do so.

With almost any old car or tractor the labor bill from a restoration can eat up the value of the vehicle real quick. A complete wood kit for a T coupe up until 1925 is in the $3700 range. Then you pile the labor on top of that.

That part about 'no neutral' brought back memories of my dad' method of starting the "T" that I helped restore when I was a kid. He always hand-cranked it with one rear wheel jacked up. I think it walked off the jack once, pushed him up against garage wall. it was ok [or better] when the thick oil warmed up.

In my experience with restoring Chevelles for myself and others, you are always $$$ ahead buying a running, driving car than getting a fixer-upper, even more so if you don't have the skills and time to repair it yourself. You're also ahead because you're actually driving and enjoying the car instead of looking at a pile of parts and worrying how it'll ever become anything. There are hundreds of half finished projects in garages throughout the country and most of them will never be finished.
The one good thing about taking on the challenge and finishing it is the feeling of accomplishment it gives you. It's always cooler to say "I did it myself" than "I bought it like this".
Never, ever, go into a restoration project thinking that you will make money on it. Even if you value your labor at $0, you can easily have more money in parts, materials, and outside labor than you will get back on the sale, BTDT myself.
JMHO.
BillL

Car was up on jack stands when I got the motor going, so that was good—because if you’re going to start this car with all wheels on the ground, you’d better be ready to go somewhere right away.

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This reminds me of what my maternal grandpa told of his 1917? T that he had in high school (class of '26)...

At least in cold weather, he'd have a wood block at home at the farm and another one at school. One wheel off the ground via the block so that it could be crank started and not take off by itself. I am not clear how the block got kicked out from under? Maybe he pushed the car off and quickly jumped on the running board? Dunno, would love to ask him but he's been gone for 20yrs this spring.

www.mftca.com

Thanks for the replies—I actually didn’t realize how long the original post was until I glanced at it. Must have gone overboard this morning during breakfast LOL. This has helped me look at the restoration/letting it go issue a little more clearly. I’ve tried to reply to as many questions as I could. It really is a neat old car, and it even has a decal from some dealership out in Kansas, where it was maybe sold new or second-hand at some point.

"Great post with lots of info, I can believe that those costs can pile up pretty quick. I've been told that the market for that real old
stuff has dropped off considerably over the past 10-20 years. The newer generations of vintage car lovers are more into the muscle car era
and then even back into the 50's somewhat."
 

Thanks, Crazy Horse. It’s interesting but we’ve had discussions within the club about car enthusiasts, and the overriding sentiment is that the recent generation, including “gen x” is more into collecting experiences than material things. I believe even the muscle cars are becoming more the focus of an aging population. In my town, Saturday nights see a big turnout of vintage cars at the local ice cream hangout. There are some young people, but they mostly have beefed up pickups or late model sports cars. The old Fords, Chevys and Chryslers are being driven by old guys. Was at the gas pump recently filling up. Next pump over was a guy with an original ’67 GTO tri-power. He must have been 80 yrs old.

Is that original paint?

Steve, the guys in the club are highly doubtful that a car almost 100 yrs old has the original paint—even though the patina and overall look appear original. I like to think it is, but realistically it’s probably had at least one repaint. I don’t plan to change the finish. I’m fine with how it looks.

"Model T's really only average around 35 MPH which is not fast enough on a lot of roads. Maybe fun around town."

John, I think that may be one reason these local clubs organize “tours.” It is probably much safer travelling in a highly visible pack, than being a loner out there fending for yourself. When I see a bunch of Model Ts touring together, I naturally slow down to take a look.

"what where your plans when you bought the car red?
why are those plans on hold?
have those plans changed?"

Carvel, good advice about taking the time to knock out a little bit every day. It’s really something that will help me as I approach this issue of restoring or letting it go. My skill set is firmly with the cars of the 60s thru late 70s. You’d think working on an antique car would be easier, but that’s not necessarily the case. They present a different set of problems, and you really need people who know what they’re doing to consult with.

For your other very good questions, I’ve shifted priorities, have devoted a lot of time to some pretty ambitious home improvement projects on top of my regular work. At the time that I bought the car, I hadn’t moved into this new place out in the country, and now that I’m settled in I’m changing things around and even building an efficiency apartment downstairs. BTW, the car is here now, but the photo I posted is in my cousin’s garage, where we trailered it when first purchased. Thanks for your thoughtful comments and questions. And yes, I do belong to the Model T international online forum. They’re a lot of help as well—and it’s free. My local Model T chapter is a paid membership. Money well spent. Thanks again for weighing in—your comments have been very helpful.

"With almost any old car or tractor the labor bill from a restoration can eat up the value of the vehicle real quick. A complete wood kit for a T coupe up until 1925 is in the $3700 range. Then you pile the labor on top of that."

Fixerupper—yes, you probably know all the parts needed for restoration are available from different catalogues and suppliers. And they are not cheap. There are some different outfits that make the wooden spoke wheels and they have a range of $300 to $900 per wheel. I think the $300 is too low, actually, since it’s from a 2015 price list and that maker might not even be in business anymore.

"That part about 'no neutral' brought back memories of my dad' method of starting the "T" that I helped restore when I was a kid. He always hand-cranked it with one rear wheel jacked up. I think it walked off the jack once, pushed him up against garage wall. it was ok [or better] when the thick oil warmed up."

Mite-Help, I’m beginning the think that the problem may be with the clutch itself, and hopefully not within the tranny. However, the transmission has issues, as the guys from the club told me it has a lot of slop and could self-destruct without an intervention.

"The one good thing about taking on the challenge and finishing it is the feeling of accomplishment it gives you. It's always cooler to say "I did it myself" than "I bought it like this".

Ark68SS, I agree about the satisfaction of doing it myself—if for no other reason than I know it was either a good job or a bad one. There can be a lot of unanswered questions when buying an older restoration—even if it appears to be in good mechanical shape. It helps if there’s a lot of documentation, photos, etc that go with the car.

"This reminds me of what my maternal grandpa told of his 1917? T that he had in high school (class of '26)...

At least in cold weather, he'd have a wood block at home at the farm and another one at school. One wheel off the ground via the block so that it could be crank started and not take off by itself. I am not clear how the block got kicked out from under? Maybe he pushed the car off and quickly jumped on the running board? Dunno, would love to ask him but he's been gone for 20yrs this spring."
 
Jeff—I may be wrong, but I think there was a special jack you could buy or that Ford even supplied that allowed you to easily lift the rear off the ground to start the car. To be clear, I used the electric starter, which was either an option or standard on my car. They started being used as early as 1918, I believe. Operated by a foot switch, like many later model cars.

I might be interested if You want to sell it.I've got a 1933 chevy pickup and a
1930 model A now.

It could very well have the original paint on it. The Japanese black that Henry used was put on heavy and it lasted well. The bodies were painted with something akin to
a garden nozzle. Paint ran off into a tray and was re-sprayed. All model T''s from the middle era were painted black because this paint was the only one that would dry
fast enough to feed the assembly line. In 1926 Henry used Dupont's new paints in colors that dried fast enough.

The upholstery on the seats likely was not redone either and if so makes it a pretty survivor of the years. The wheels are probably as strong as when they were made. If
the spokes are a bit loose just soak them in water and they will swell and tighten up. The disk in the transmission that are the clutch are likely stuck together so they
can't release. Need to take the cover off the transmission cover and use some good solvent on the clutch discs and work them a bit.

The rear end may be OK with the play being in the taper and keys in the rear hubs. Having one in this good of shape just fixing what is really worn and driving it around
is a good thing. I would love to have it but I have enough projects to do. wink

Speaking of interior work, I drove a '69 Karmann Ghia for several years with a piece of indoor-outdoor carpet over the bare springs in the seats. The head rests held it in place.

(quoted from post at 21:36:32 04/17/18) It could very well have the original paint on it. The Japanese black that Henry used was put on heavy and it lasted well. The bodies were painted with something akin to
a garden nozzle. Paint ran off into a tray and was re-sprayed. All model T''s from the middle era were painted black because this paint was the only one that would dry
fast enough to feed the assembly line. In 1926 Henry used Dupont's new paints in colors that dried fast enough.

The upholstery on the seats likely was not redone either and if so makes it a pretty survivor of the years. The wheels are probably as strong as when they were made. If
the spokes are a bit loose just soak them in water and they will swell and tighten up. The disk in the transmission that are the clutch are likely stuck together so they
can't release. Need to take the cover off the transmission cover and use some good solvent on the clutch discs and work them a bit.

The rear end may be OK with the play being in the taper and keys in the rear hubs. Having one in this good of shape just fixing what is really worn and driving it around
is a good thing. I would love to have it but I have enough projects to do. wink

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Thanks for the tips, they'll give me a good starting point. The guys in the club are great, but my impression is they really like tearing everything apart and starting with new. Not such a bad approach if a total mechanical restoration is what's called for. To end up with a basic "driver," it might not be necessary to throw a lot of new parts at it. I'd like to take a hard look at the clutch/no neutral issue and see what I can figure out. My experience is with the dry clutches with discs and pressure plates--not sure what type the model T uses, but I'll find out.