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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Hobby Farmers

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Morgan in ar

02-09-2018 10:38:45




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Somebody mentioned in a post below that he hates the term. I have to agree. I don't make my whole living farming, I am a self employed electrician as well. There were times after the '06 housing crash when farming was a huge part of my income, and I couldn't have got by without it. There are also times of the year when it takes up most of my time. Right now, building is good. I don't need the farm income as much, so I try to reinvest it back into the farm. That way, the farm will be bigger and better when I need it again. To me, if you are making food or fiber, and trying to run it as a business, than you are a farmer. If you are growing food for food to eat, or seedstock to make more food, than you are a farmer. I had an old man who started a nice sheep operation after retirement tell me once, "I don't need the income from lambs, but I want to make a profit, because that's how you keep score." I would call a hobby farm somebody who just grows things to let or look at with no regard for business. What do you think?

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carvel minne farmer

02-11-2018 20:43:44




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
my question is how did the term or label "hobby" ever get connected to any type of farming? my definition of hobby is something you do for your pleasure and enjoyment, something you have a keen interest in, (ie stamp collecting,coin collecting, building with wood or metal) it is not a business venture where you expect a high return on investment. BUT having just read what I wrote here, I would have to say I am a "hobby farmer" I love working on old iron, built back in the day with quality and pride, putting in hours of work getting a piece of equipment back up and running, taking it out into the field and using it, (in my case my small haying operation) I hay my 4 acre acerage here at home and a couple of other small fields that the bigger full time farmers here don't want to bother with. it is definitely not my main source of income(still haven't got paid for the second cut I did and sold to family!!) :lol: sitting up on the tractor seat cruising along with the sickle mower watching the hay fall, getting the rake set just right so I can make nice even windrows so it's easier baling. getting all the bales in the hay shed and beating the rain! no better feeling, looking out on a freshly cut field with the smell of fresh cut hay behind you in the hay shed and watching the rain come down, no better feeling. it must be in the blood I guess. if it's not in your dna you sure as hec wouldn't work that hard for so little money! but I love every minute of it and i learn something every trip out there and i hope to be a hobby farmer for another 10 or 20 years :lol:

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Bret4207

02-11-2018 12:44:14




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Yup. Done that a number of times.



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Destroked 450

02-10-2018 19:11:54




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
It's easy to show a profit once every few years to satisfy the tax man.

Just throw away enough expense receipts until income is more than the receipts you have left.

Other than six years in the army during WW2 my dad was a farmer his whole life.

Well he did deliver mail on horse back for a short time, there where cars but not many decent roads back then.

The wife quit her public job in 06 to stay home and raise chickens for a major food company, I left full time public work in 10 to help her and tend to our increasing beef cattle herd (65 head now).

I file taxes as a farming operation, but are we considered farmers or contract workers?

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kyhayman

02-10-2018 14:34:55




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I live in an area where almost all full time farmers are retirees from something else who did exactly as you describe, myself included. When I retired from teaching ag (and extension before that) I farmed full time and did custom work. It worked well for a while but the custom work kept getting bigger and including more things (first baling hay, then building fences, then horse barns, then houses). Low and behold, 10 years later I realize Im no longer a farmer but a contractor. Jan 1 I retired again, back to raising cows and hay. We'll see how long this lasts...... To me a hobby farmer is my typical custom work customer, 2-5 horses, chickens, goats, etc on 5-20 acres. Anyone else, part time or full time is a farmer.

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K Effective

02-10-2018 09:53:07




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Recognizing that this is your job, and not asking to give your services away for free, but, if you care to answer, does this mean bottom line of the Schedule F, or earnings prior to depreciation?



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K Effective

02-10-2018 09:49:09




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Yes, if the IRS man insists this is not a farm because I have been spending all my farm profits on equipment to bring productivity up to 1970s standards, then he can join me the week I clean the barn out, and shovel some of my stuff along with his stuff.



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Bret4207

02-10-2018 05:42:28




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Around here anyone that isn't milking at least 100 head is a "hobby farmer". IMO there is no "hobby" in the world this hard, heart breaking, time consuming or expensive as farming. 2 goats and a pony on a half acre? Yeah, that's a hobby. That's not me.



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t.r.k.

02-09-2018 18:49:30




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I agree with the last statement. My parents are hobby farmers. Both retired.

No pursuit of profit. In fact if they kept track, it probably costs more than they actually get out of it. And some things they seem to do the hardest way possible, "Because we always did it that way." Which is frustrating for their Son at times. But its their land and their garden and their chickens. (And I sure do like scrambled eggs, potatoes and green beans.)

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K Effective

02-09-2018 18:26:46




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I'm a third generation part-time farmer. Grandpa always had an off-farm job, as did Dad.
As much pain as this place provides me, and as much as it costs me, I prefer to call myself a Fetish Farmer, it seems apt.



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ss55

02-09-2018 16:18:38




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Yup, it seems like a "Big Time Operator" is anyone with an operation larger that whoever is speaking at the time and a "Hobby Farmer" is everyone with an operation smaller than the speaker. That leaves a pretty small window of "real farmers", LOL. Similar to: a patriot is anyone who agrees with the speaker and a traitor is everyone who disagrees.



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moonlite37

02-09-2018 16:38:18




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to ss55, 02-09-2018 16:18:38  
Well said, Also some people think conservative means good and liberal means corrupt.



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sammydwm

02-09-2018 15:02:41




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I don't get hung up on labels or what other folks think. Makes life a lot more pleasant.



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showcrop

02-09-2018 14:45:57




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I have always admitted to being a hobby farmer. Our daughter got us into it because she wanted to have sheep and show them at the fairs. We supported her in that, and put up a little barn, and renovated an adjacent run-out hayfield for pasture. Well, after a couple years of chasing after the quality hay that the sheep needed, we decided to go into a partnership with a neighbor who also had sheep, and was going to take a cutting off half of his pasture in the spring. We went in together on the equipment, starting with old small stuff. After three years we had taken on around 40 acres and were selling our first cut to horse people. We bought bigger equipment and bigger tractors in order to go faster, but even so my partner's wife was jealous of the hay and he had to quit. Now I am doing it with the wife and kids for help and it was going along pretty good, so I kept picking up more ground. The flock kept growing too, and my real business was growing, so we moved to a place with room to put up a building for my business and to have a lot more pasture. By this time I was up to around 95 acres of hay ground, a pretty complete line of good equipment and three working tractors. I had also been renovating and seeding down some ground. I needed to be able to cover the ground faster, and take some load off from the wife, so I got a bigger tractor and a discbine, and then a baler with a thrower and three wagons with sides. This was still a hobby but now I referred to it as a hobby out of control. I was now doing it all by myself. I did most of my mowing in the evenings, then tedding and then raking and baling during the day. When the weather was good I might get my employees going on their days, then go tedd a field or two, then hop to a different tractor and rake what was to be baled that day, go do some office work, then get wagons moved to where I was baling, then hook up the baler go bale and maybe deliver a couple loads. I might then go and mow some more. Long days, too many seats and not enough azzes. This went along OK until the weather just got wacky. I would get behind in the spring due to poor forecasts, and once you are behind you have to make hay whenever the sun shines. After a few more years I got tired of the hay running my life and turned half of my ground over to other guys. I was fortunate to be able to just back off and not worry about debt service or income.

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Traditional Farmer

02-09-2018 14:39:22




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I'd guess the USDA would classify any farm as being a hobby farm that didn't gross at least 1 Million$ a year.



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David G

02-09-2018 14:38:29




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Why do you need to label them?



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greenenvy

02-09-2018 14:37:35




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
My definition of a hobby farmer is someone would could have zero income off the farming side year after year due to whatever disaster and not loose the farm, house, car and his possessions. Basically you are just playing around.



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dhermesc

02-09-2018 14:54:49




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to greenenvy, 02-09-2018 14:37:35  
My brother in law did that, he now owns about 800 acres free and clear along with all his farm machinery. His "full time job" was a teacher and he farmed part time. According to my sister they never used a dime of the farm's income for living expenses - it got rolled back into the farm. Having 800 acres worth about $3000 or so an acre is the kind of playing around I'd love to do.



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Married2Allis

02-09-2018 14:08:04




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I used like REDMAN until I swallowed some one day! If I remember 'Levi Garrett' has a little less bite to it. :)



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Nick m

02-09-2018 14:03:16




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I guess I would be coined a "hobby farmer". Work full time and do this because I like It. Every some i make at it goes back into it in one form or another Also trying to grow a little so my son might have the option I did not, to possibly farm for a living. I won't push him into it. If that's not the path he wants, he'll at least get a little cash selling off my stuff when I'm gone. Also working towards what I hope to be an early retirement. Where I work, you're fully vested at 30yrs, but can't draw until you're 60. Most just work until they're 60. I'll have my 30 in at 53yrs old. Hoping to fill that gap with this if all goes well.

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Crazy Horse

02-09-2018 13:56:57




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I doubt whether you would ever see or read the term "hobby farmer" in any type of legal document, be it government, legal, property, or whatever other formal category you can think of. Perhaps our discussion, although of interest, is best described as being "moot".



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paul

02-09-2018 19:10:05




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Crazy Horse, 02-09-2018 13:56:57  
Crazy, I think the IRS gets into the term 'hobby farm' and define it as a farm designed to lose money, or offset regular income from another source.

Friend (town kid) of mine started that term for me in high school, bugged me for about 5 minutes and then decided to enjoy it and have fun. That has worked well ever since.

I prefer calling myself a simple dirt farmer.

Either I live up to my description and everyone is happy, or I exceed my description and surprise people.... win either way.

Paul

Paul

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47fivewindow

02-09-2018 13:49:22




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
There was a time in the '80s when I was relying on the farm to keep from starving. I was a farmer, if not a very good one. I had to get a city job and did well. Now I try to keep the place together for the next generation and the profit or loss is of no concern. It's a hobby. I do enjoy all you all telling us how you make it work.



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jeffcat

02-09-2018 13:43:03




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
In NJ They want to get rid of "hobby farms". Now before everyone starts to scream. On the tax rolls you can qualify for farm land. Taxes on a farm or a tiny plot in a development are not even CLOSE! The taxes on a 1/2 acres house for the year is just a couple of bucks less than a 50 acre farm. Not kidding. Now here is what the state of NJ wants to do. There are a lot of 2 or 3 or 5 acer miny farms. Farmlets, hobby farms, whaterver you chose. Well now you almost need 10 to keep you "farm" taxes. GREED, GREEDY, GREEDILY, GREEEDIEEEEER. The past two years they have been really cracking down. The minimum profit from your "farm" they really are looking with a magnifying glass.

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Married2Allis

02-09-2018 13:38:23




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Is it OK for hobby farmers to chew tobacco while they work?



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Farmerwithmutt

02-09-2018 14:15:46




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Married2Allis, 02-09-2018 13:38:23  
I remember helping put up hay one year 2 kids in the mow hot ,heavy bales and humid . Well one kid chewed the other didn't the one that did offering the other a chew said it help him then he told him to swallow .I made the genius do the work of two men that day kid that swallowed he started feeling a little better in a couple days.
So no don't chew if you're on a learning curve however if you want to entertain someone go ahead.

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jeffcat

02-09-2018 14:26:41




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Farmerwithmutt, 02-09-2018 14:15:46  
When I was in Boy Scouts we went on a bicycle tour of maybe 10 miles. This one kid, no fooling, a kid, not only did he chew, his canteen was full of some kind of liquor. I had never ever had any Chaw so had to try a little. Man that stuff really tastes pretty darn good. First mistake I made was to swallow some spit. You all know what the results were. Didn't barf but I stopped chewing pretty dang quick. Was only a little green around the gills.

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achesser

02-09-2018 14:14:08




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Married2Allis, 02-09-2018 13:38:23  
I hope so



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Morgan in ar

02-09-2018 13:51:25




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Married2Allis, 02-09-2018 13:38:23  
Probably if he is single, or married to a tractor.



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Farmerwithmutt

02-09-2018 12:51:07




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Define a farm. In Milwaukee there is fish farms set up in old warehouse.In the driftless area of Wisconsin alot of small farmers making a good living farming organic. Seen a show recently a lavender farm not many acres. Is maybe someone not making over a certain dollar amount ? Had a good laugh the other day a guy milking 40 + cows by himself everything paid for an Amish called him a hobby farmer probably because he had very little and older machinery .The real funny part was the guy he called hobby was milking 40 was getting 30 a hundred the real farmer was getting 16 a hundred plus having to by a lot of chemical and also didn't do grazing so had also higher equipment cost So if milking 40 cows and making more money than the guy with 80 cows and he was a hobby farmer really?

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Ultradog MN

02-09-2018 12:41:12




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
It's just a name.
Be glad you don't live in the city and have a couple old tractors up on your property like I do.
Citiot is probably one of the kindest terms I hear for folks like me.
I guess we could start calling guys like you a gentleman farmer.
Then again, that would be stretching the terms farmer AND gentleman for a lot of folks around here :)



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denglish

02-09-2018 12:35:12




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
"If you are growing food for food to eat, or seedstock to make more food, than you are a farmer."

That describes my farm. I consider myself a "subsistence farmer."



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IanC

02-09-2018 12:35:02




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Bravo Randy! The BTO get their income from milking the government, and bilking investors. If you are selling farm products then you are a farmer whether it is 10 percent of your income, or 90 percent. If you check history ,or work at farm suppliers like I did, you would see that even some of the biggest operations back in the day had at least one person who worked off the farm (taught school, drove bus, worked in the bank in town, etc.). Before I get too many complaints, the comment above applies to times since the automobile made getting to another job easy.

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wgm

02-09-2018 21:46:30




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to IanC, 02-09-2018 12:35:02  
I suspect you also class anyone with a farm operation larger than yours as a BTO.



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achesser

02-09-2018 12:31:35




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
It does not matter what anyone wants to call me but I think my nich is using small irregular pieces of ground noboday with modern sized equipment would mess with.



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rrlund

02-09-2018 12:20:59




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I think Dave has it right. When somebody gets all offended by something,it just says that you've hit a nerve. Some of my BTO buddies used to just shake their head and grin at me at the coffee shop and co-op meetings and say "According to MSU,you shouldn't even exist.". I'd just laugh right along with them. I am who I am and I do what I do,simple as that.



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Bob Harvey

02-09-2018 16:48:52




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to rrlund, 02-09-2018 12:20:59  
Ahh, I new you wuz Popeye ! ;^)



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rrlund

02-10-2018 07:24:49




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Bob Harvey, 02-09-2018 16:48:52  
You're confusing Olive Oil with Oliver. lol



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Charlie M

02-09-2018 12:02:15




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I've always considered myself a hobby farmer because I'm not trying to make a living off of it. I've set my little operation up with only the old machinery and tractors and farm practices and the number 1 reason I do it is because I enjoy it. What I am doing would quality as a pretty nice farm operation in the 1950's. Worked up to 30 acres at one time. Over the years I have gotten back enough money to cover the costs and that's all I've ever looked for. I've tried to follow the farming practices of the old days with corn in 36" rows, cultivation, small bales of hay, etc. Never claimed any tax deductions as I have never been large enough to make it legal. It has turned out to be a great life to raise 2 sons who were very much a part of the operation until they were old enough to be out on their own and has also been a big contributor to my wife and I being married for 40 years. The best part of all of this after reading a thread a couple of days ago about what's not working with farming these days while I do care about getting a good crop for the cost I don't really have to worry about markets, weather, labor, cost of machinery, etc. My only worry is about keeping the old tractors running and having fun. To me that's a hobby.

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Dave H (MI)

02-09-2018 11:39:19




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
I think you are worrying too much about labels. What is labeled a hobby for taxes, is not a real life label any more than taxable profit is equal to real profit. I think a farm is a farm if it produces a farm product and you sell it for money and it is done on a reasonable scale sufficient to provide a portion of your income. Mine has always fit that definition, even though it provides only a small part of my income. No one would ever come to my place and call it anything other than a farm. A farm is also a farm, even if it is no longer used by the owner for that purpose but remains essentially unchanged. A retired engineer could buy a farm and it would still be a farm even if he never broke ground with a plow. The whole "hobby" farm thing applies more to people who keep animals for personal pleasure or grow large gardens. Around here that generally can be found on up to 10 acres and usually includes small buildings. But it is all just words.

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Bruce from Can.

02-09-2018 11:24:07




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Here in Canada , if your off farm income is greater than your on farm income , then you are in the class of restricted loss. Meaning you can't write off all the losses that your farm might create from buying equipment for example, because you may be just trying to shelter money earned from your off farm job. To be able to claim any farm loss, against farm income , I believe you have to gross at least $7,000.00 of farm income. To me if your off farm income is greater than your on farm, you fit the hobby farm class. Or if you work more hours at your job off the farm then you work on the farm , you really are not a full time farmer. But what is in a name. Cash crop farmers work six weeks in the spring and six weeks in the fall , and still claim to be full time framers, That should stir the fire up some , lol

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Traditional Farmer

02-10-2018 04:41:38




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Bruce from Can., 02-09-2018 11:24:07  
Back before I quit working an off farm job I was getting income from the job,the wife was getting income from her full time job,we were getting income from several rental houses,plus I owned
over 100 brood cows was into the farming operation with my father 50/50,he owned 100.You call that a 'hobby farm'? No it was just another business enterprise according to my accountant and I was making a good gross out of the farm but very limited net because I was pouring money into fencing and equipment for when I was going to quit the day job.Now I'm a 'real farmer' according to a lot of you fella's definition because I don't have the day job but the irony is I have less than 50 cows now,but still have the rentals so I guess that hurts my standing(LOL).I guess real farmers stay on the farm,whine and collect Gov't money to get by in tough times and hobby farmers got off their behinds and find some enterprise or job to make up the income gap they need and not become a
ward of the state.If so I'm a proud 'Hobby Farmer'.

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Morgan in ar

02-09-2018 11:42:58




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Bruce from Can., 02-09-2018 11:24:07  
That doesn't sound fair. They won't allow losses, but they are glad to take your income.



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Bruce from Can.

02-09-2018 12:00:56




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 11:42:58  
They do allow some losses, but they are limited.



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centash

02-09-2018 14:08:04




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Bruce from Can., 02-09-2018 12:00:56  
And your farm business has to show a potential for profit, not something you just keep pouring money in without a reasonable expectation of a profit



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rrlund

02-09-2018 12:23:20




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Bruce from Can., 02-09-2018 12:00:56  
I don't know if that's the case her in the US anymore or not,Dave could tell you I'm sure,but it used to be that you could only show a loss for so many years. Seems like it was 7.



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Dave H (MI)

02-09-2018 14:06:05




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to rrlund, 02-09-2018 12:23:20  
Losses from activities deemed hobbies are not deductible in the US. An activity will be deemed as having no profit motive (i.e. a hobby) if it does not show a profit 3 of 5 consecutive years. Race horse folk (and, yes, I do have a stable of thoroughbreds on my client list) get a lighter burden of proof. 2 of 7 years.



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jm.

02-09-2018 18:22:10




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Dave H (MI), 02-09-2018 14:06:05  
Dave Tree farmers are almost exempt from having to show a profit, can go several years with equipment purchases and loss before one sell the logs.. AND for TENNESSEE tax exemptions one can raise and board horses and NEVER sell one and still be farm tax exempt on purchases. Tax laws are really complicated and the word HOBBY farmer never comes into play.



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rrlund

02-10-2018 06:27:53




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to jm., 02-09-2018 18:22:10  
That's a fine line to walk here in Michigan as far as property classification goes. In general if it's horses it's ag. You can have a stable where you let the public come in and pay you to let them ride your horses and it ag,but if you have a stable that boards horses and more than half the horses in the facility belong to somebody else,it's commercial.



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rrlund

02-09-2018 14:20:37




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Dave H (MI), 02-09-2018 14:06:05  
I remember a school teacher here who had claimed losses farming for as long as he could. He was really struggling to find a profit. He even claimed the kids fair premiums as his income that year.



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Dave H (MI)

02-09-2018 14:55:14




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to rrlund, 02-09-2018 14:20:37  
One of the very rare times we scramble for items of income instead of deductions. It does happen. :)



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2002sliverado

02-09-2018 11:16:42




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
BTO's might probably call me a hobby farmer. I don't care. I farm because I care about my family's legacy of having that farm in the family for 5 generations, and I want to pass it on to my children. I run it as a business, building it, betting it, and growing to something larger and better. There are limitations on what I can do, due to economics, finances, as well as it being owned by my parents. The plan is for it to go to my sister and me when they are gone, and have the ability to buy her out over the course of 20 years, if necessary. I cannot do it to make my full living, and at this time I do not need it to subsidize my living. I have taken far less out of it, versus what I have invested back into it. I certainly do not farm as a "tax dodge" but as a legacy and a long term family investment, and not something to be "sold off" for someone to simply put money into their pocket. Once it is gone, it is gone. I hope to be able to retire a few years early from my regular job, and have a few years where I can farm and do something I truly enjoy doing. I can also depend upon this, if needed, during downturns or struggles, too.

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Gary Mitchell

02-09-2018 10:56:51




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 Re: Hobby Farmers in reply to Morgan in ar, 02-09-2018 10:38:45  
Personally I never had much respect for "doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs," that took tax rules meant to assist people that are legitimately attempting to farm, and make a tax gimmick of it on their little toy ranch. IMHO there is a big difference, Morgan, between what you're doing and cheating. I suppose where one draws the line becomes the real issue, if only a matter of opinion. gm



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