Autonomous cars

Eldon (WA)

Well-known Member
Why do we never see these cars being tested in white out conditions or on icy hills? Don't they have their autonomous wreckers ready yet LOL!
 
I'm still waiting to see how one would get insurance on one of them. Since if there is a person in it the yare not driving so would they be libel or would the car be libel
 
they very easily could handle adverse conditions, and would likely decrease speed until no wheel slip is sensed, which would be much slower than most people drive in these same conditions.

I had a 2003 VW that would turn off the cruise control if it felt the wheels slip at all. My brother has had several cars with adaptive cruise control that can adjust speed based on traffic around you. I don't see why 15 years later people seem so leery about the technologies. Things can fail, but these test vehicles out there are proving to be much safer than most human drivers.

Give it time, and there will be many more out there and even your trucks used for hauling tractors around will be automated. Maybe not in your lifetime, but probably in mine or my children's. Just look at all the advances since you were born.

Donovan from Wisconsin
 
I have to believe they're quite a ways off
yet.

I have to deal with vision systems at work,
for part/assembly inspection, and they can
give me fits. And this is in a controlled
environment.

I'm sure it's coming, but I don't think
it's ready for prime time yet.

Fred
 
Yup, BTDT with the visual recognition thing. Kind of makes you wonder what the car would do if a coyote painted a tunnel entrance on the side of a rock.
 
I like the insurance article. It shows how problems will be solved when new technology is deployed. You don't try and adapt your current business model. You go after it in a different way. The car manufacturers would insure the car as part of the purchase. Not the current model of separate insurance companies that work with the owner. The entire self driving car concept will be full of shifts like this. The only thing that needs to remain the same is getting people and goods from point A to point B. Everything else about how this is done can be changed.
 
A self driving car will know the train crossing is there and that a train is approaching miles before it ever gets to the crossing. Trains will send out a locator signal that the cars will read. Same with blind intersections and cross roads with stop signs. A self driving car approaching the intersection will know about every car close to that intersection, its speed and direction of travel.
 
(quoted from post at 15:11:27 01/17/18) A self driving car will know the train crossing is there and that a train is approaching miles before it ever gets to the crossing. Trains will send out a locator signal that the cars will read. Same with blind intersections and cross roads with stop signs. A self driving car approaching the intersection will know about every car close to that intersection, its speed and direction of travel.

What is it going to do when it senses that 4' snow drift up ahead? How is it going to handle gravel roads? What is going to keep the sensors clean?
 
It will have multiple navigation signals. GPS, radio with other cars, on board vision, on board thermal imaging and stuff I can't even think up yet. It won't depend on single sensor. Multiple sensors of different types with backups. It probably won't let you drive through a 4 foot snow drift and you shouldn't do it now. So being stopped before the snow drift but not stuck or in the snow drift and stuck. Not much different. How do you clean you windshield now? Wipers? Defrost? Same thing can be used to clean sensors.
 
Take away the inexperienced driver, yes they will do less dumb things.

But can it anticipate an icy bridge before it is on it?

Can it build speed to make an icy hill?

Can it decide "this ain't worth it" and go back home? LOL
 
lets get back to Eldon's original post, I'm sure in California and Arizona where the weather is nice this concept can be made to work fine, up here in Canada where you can go through freezing rain (LIKE WE HAD EARLY THIS MORNING) or drive into or out of a blizzard all within 3 miles. or when you walk out to your vehicale and it's covered in an inch of frost and ice, and all the lane markers are covered in snow or ice?? how will the computer systems function in high humidity/severe cold conditions? the new trucks, equipment, cars and trucks we are getting up here aren't doing so well. a locale oilfield hauling co. my brother inlaw works for had bought 5 brand new 2016 peterbuilt tridrive winch tractors and after getting all the rigging and decals and paint done they where sent out to a rig move about 300 miles north. one made it about 30 niles from the yard, two made it to grassland about 80 niles ne. one shutdown at wandering river, about 200 miles and one made it to the rig! at $500,000. each the owner was not amused.
 
(quoted from post at 15:42:20 01/17/18) Take away the inexperienced driver, yes they will do less dumb things.

But can it anticipate an icy bridge before it is on it?

Can it build speed to make an icy hill?

Can it decide "this ain't worth it" and go back home? LOL

Exactly! Even though there is not a lot of common sense out there, most drivers are able to react to changing conditions and make rational choices....in order for these cars to do that they would have perform like robots with artificial intelligence. Imagine what that would cost!
 
I see those cameras at work, some of them cost some big bucks, and some of the issues I have...just trying to "see" if a spring is installed, or a check ball...in a controlled environment. And then if casting is a slightly different shade of gray, or we added a new work light or one is out, or the part is out of position 0.010" or.....

And I drive home, the white lines are faded out on the expressway, and they filled the seams in the asphalt with tar. And the seams don't go where the lines are, but drivers start to follow the seams, then go Holy Cow and get back over between the lines.

I know the self drivers will also use gps, but it's not accurate enough...yet

Starting to rant here...sorry. But I see all this hoopla about self driving cars, and I'm afraid we're gonna rush it before it's really ready. And folks are gonna get hurt.

Fred
 
(quoted from post at 15:47:17 01/17/18) lets get back to Eldon's original post, I'm sure in California and Arizona where the weather is nice this concept can be made to work fine, up here in Canada where you can go through freezing rain (LIKE WE HAD EARLY THIS MORNING) or drive into or out of a blizzard all within 3 miles. or when you walk out to your vehicale and it's covered in an inch of frost and ice, and all the lane markers are covered in snow or ice?? how will the computer systems function in high humidity/severe cold conditions? the new trucks, equipment, cars and trucks we are getting up here aren't doing so well. a locale oilfield hauling co. my brother inlaw works for had bought 5 brand new 2016 peterbuilt tridrive winch tractors and after getting all the rigging and decals and paint done they where sent out to a rig move about 300 miles north. one made it about 30 niles from the yard, two made it to grassland about 80 niles ne. one shutdown at wandering river, about 200 miles and one made it to the rig! at $500,000. each the owner was not amused.

Can you imagine the fun kids and jokesters would have messing with these cars? What if a bad guy wanted to stop one?
All he has to do is step in front of it and it will stop. Bang bang and the car is rendered useless and the passengers helpless....
 
When you make millions and millions of something the cost goes down quickly. I am always amazed at how cheap a car is. That's right a car is cheap. $30,000 buys you a car that is loaded with technology. Similar things for industry that are made in low quantities cost millions. That smart phone in your pocket that cost $600 is scary cheap compared to what the first computer cost and all it could do was add and subtract and took an army of operators to program.
 
If someone steps in front of my car I stop now and wait for them to move. So how is a car doing it automatically any different?
 
(quoted from post at 16:03:59 01/17/18) If someone steps in front of my car I stop now and wait for them to move. So how is a car doing it automatically any different?

You may stop, but not everyone will and that is what keeps people from jumping in front of cars. An autonomous car HAS to stop, and they will know that. On HLN today a guy took a ride in one and it almost threw him out of his seat when someone stepped out in front of it. Imagine the fun teenagers could have with that on a Saturday night....
 
I am not seeing a big difference. There are a lot of ways to mess with my car and driving right now but people don't so I am not worried about a big issue with teenagers stepping in front of cars. Will happen somewhere at sometime but not everyday all the time. The reason the guy almost got thrown from his seat is he wasn't ready for it. If you are driving and know you are stopping quickly then you brace for it. Turn the seats around backward and problem solved. You will just get pushed into your seat on quick stops.
 
Right on. No steering wheel or other operator controls. No mirrors. Windows become a nice to have only. Headlights become marker lights. Even windshield wipers become a convenience item. Cost reductions on these items will help offset other costs for the driverless technology.

And the grand cost savings is you don't have to own your own car. You can join a ride sharing service. You use an app on your phone to schedule a car and it just shows up. You can select to share with others or be dedicated to you. All comes down to what level of service you want and what you want to pay. That open spot in the garage can be filled with more old tractors.
 
The biggest challenge I see in autonomous vehicles isn't a technology hurdle but rather an
ethical one. Whenever we get behind the wheel we're assuming an enormous responsibility to
others around us and are also assuming a risk that other's actions may injure or even kill us.
Events arise on the road without warning that can never be planned for and it can require a
split-second decision to determine the "lesser of evils". For example, do I run over the kid who
just jumped out in front of me, swerve left into oncoming traffic, or swerve right and crash into
a tree? The human driver makes a decision and acts on it based on what just feels right at that
moment and provided the action was taken in good faith nobody can really fault the driver
regardless of the outcome - he was put in a situation that had no good options. On the other
hand, an autonomous vehicle would need to be pre-programmed for such an event. In this case
regardless of the outcome the vehicle manufacturer will probably get sued by either: A) the
parents of the kid because the car didn't swerve and ran him down, B) the family of the driver of
the oncoming vehicle that was killed when the car swerved into him, or C) the family of the
autonomous vehicle driver who died crashing into a tree. To program the vehicle controls for
such an event would require a company deciding what the "lesser of evils" is and as such would be
picking the "loser". This has liability written all over it. And what if the detection system
only thought it was a kid when it was really a large dog? It would be hard to justify a loss of
human life to save a dog.

Yes, it's a hypothetical situation but this is the kind of thing that needs to be worked out
before autonomous vehicles become mainstream. Computers don't have the ability to think and
reason - they can only follow lines of code - and to be programmed to execute a "thoughtful"
response to every conceivable situation will be a massive undertaking.
 
Some states have already excepted manufacturers from all liability for driverless cars. That means the owner we be responsible.
Just remember, if the car can drive you, it can also decide it is too bad to drive you(weather). Someone will decide what time you can leave for work(government) and what time the car will start and take you home(traffic). The biggy is "over the road" truck drivers are going away fast. I think 5 years.
 
(quoted from post at 19:07:59 01/17/18) The biggest challenge I see in autonomous vehicles isn't a technology hurdle but rather an
ethical one. Whenever we get behind the wheel we're assuming an enormous responsibility to
others around us and are also assuming a risk that other's actions may injure or even kill us.
Events arise on the road without warning that can never be planned for and it can require a
split-second decision to determine the "lesser of evils". For example, do I run over the kid who
just jumped out in front of me, swerve left into oncoming traffic, or swerve right and crash into
a tree? The human driver makes a decision and acts on it based on what just feels right at that
moment and provided the action was taken in good faith nobody can really fault the driver
regardless of the outcome - he was put in a situation that had no good options. On the other
hand, an autonomous vehicle would need to be pre-programmed for such an event. In this case
regardless of the outcome the vehicle manufacturer will probably get sued by either: A) the
parents of the kid because the car didn't swerve and ran him down, B) the family of the driver of
the oncoming vehicle that was killed when the car swerved into him, or C) the family of the
autonomous vehicle driver who died crashing into a tree. To program the vehicle controls for
such an event would require a company deciding what the "lesser of evils" is and as such would be
picking the "loser". This has liability written all over it. And what if the detection system
only thought it was a kid when it was really a large dog? It would be hard to justify a loss of
human life to save a dog.

Yes, it's a hypothetical situation but this is the kind of thing that needs to be worked out
before autonomous vehicles become mainstream. Computers don't have the ability to think and
reason - they can only follow lines of code - and to be programmed to execute a "thoughtful"
response to every conceivable situation will be a massive undertaking.

I believe the general consensus is to stay in your lane, so the person would be toast even though the driver could have taken the ditch and avoided the crash. The same thing if an oncoming car leaves its lane and comes into yours...again, the autonomous car would be programed to stay in its lane. Things happen real fast sometimes and the laws of physics will also take over...a car going 60 mph when another suddenly veers into their lane will never be able to stop in time no matter how fast their computer works....
 
Brendon, I agree with you. The legal side of self driving cars is the difficult hurdle. The technology to do it already exists it just needs fine tuning and testing.
 
Actually.....if you want to get super duper technical. Computers can only add. Sounds crazy but. Way way back in logic class they would explain it to you with nor ,and, or gates. This shows the how and there are other videos on Utube that show how the gates work.
add to subtract
 
Short version of the story, Escalade with lane guidance would randomly slam on the brakes for no apparent reason... GM tech support finally figured out a tiny rock chip in the windshield was scattering or reflecting light into the guidance camera, making compuker think a collision was imminent causing it to slam on the brakes. Must of been an interesting ride, when all that was going on!
 
The headaches we get when windows 10 or the iPad or smart phone upgrades and 10% of your programs don't work....

The legal repercussions of when their is an accident, whose fault is it and whose insurance covers it?

Blending human drivers with autonomous cars - that will be the real challenge. The computers can anticipate and work with each other - they
might be better than we are when they are all on the same page. But they will act different than we humans do, and sharing the road is going to
be a mess.

Viruses and malicious software - when the North Koreans hack the system and 127 people die, who pays for that who is blamed for it?

Going to be a whole lot of issues along the way.

Paul
 
(quoted from post at 15:35:23 01/17/18) It will have multiple navigation signals. GPS, radio with other cars, on board vision, on board thermal imaging and stuff I can't even think up yet. It won't depend on single sensor. Multiple sensors of different types with backups. It probably won't let you drive through a 4 foot snow drift and you shouldn't do it now. So being stopped before the snow drift but not stuck or in the snow drift and stuck. Not much different. How do you clean you windshield now? Wipers? Defrost? Same thing can be used to clean sensors.

UPS delivered a package here today. I talked with the guy for a few minutes about the area road conditions. He said roads have been GREAT, with the exception of one road he went down on Monday; said there was a snow drift about 3' deep. He told how he plowed through the drift with the UPS truck, even though he knew it probably wasn't the "best idea". However, he also knew that the drift was soft. I wonder if autonomy will be able to figure things like that out?
 
Brendon, we were discussing that at Thanksgiving, and I posed the same question about the 3 equally bad options. My nephew smiled and said "At last! A question for an unemployed philosophy major!"

One of the car makers is making 5,000 cars with no steering wheel or controls, supposedly for the "for hire" market. Whoever gets them may be surprised at how many people will refuse to ride in them. I see 78% of folks in a recent poll said they would be afraid to ride in an autonomous car.
 
How are we ever going to get to the crash point never mind the legal who is wrong point.

Park on the side of a major road during rush hour and watch people drive.
Cutting from lane to lane to get one car ahead.
Getting into the on ramp of the interstate and running it to the end to get two cars ahead.
Driving over the speed limit.
ect ect ect.....

Do you think the general public would put up with a car that just stays in its lane and drives the speed limit.
I think not.
 
(quoted from post at 19:07:59 01/17/18) The biggest challenge I see in autonomous vehicles isn't a technology hurdle but rather an
ethical one. Whenever we get behind the wheel we're assuming an enormous responsibility to
others around us and are also assuming a risk that other's actions may injure or even kill us.
Events arise on the road without warning that can never be planned for and it can require a
split-second decision to determine the "lesser of evils". For example, do I run over the kid who
just jumped out in front of me, swerve left into oncoming traffic, or swerve right and crash into
a tree? The human driver makes a decision and acts on it based on what just feels right at that
moment and provided the action was taken in good faith nobody can really fault the driver
regardless of the outcome - he was put in a situation that had no good options. On the other
hand, an autonomous vehicle would need to be pre-programmed for such an event. In this case
regardless of the outcome the vehicle manufacturer will probably get sued by either: A) the
parents of the kid because the car didn't swerve and ran him down, B) the family of the driver of
the oncoming vehicle that was killed when the car swerved into him, or C) the family of the
autonomous vehicle driver who died crashing into a tree. To program the vehicle controls for
such an event would require a company deciding what the "lesser of evils" is and as such would be
picking the "loser".

I have a big problem with these "thought-exercise" situations. They are made-up scenarios that will never happen in real life.

These situations are presented as being in suburban neighborhoods or on city streets. While the basic scenarios are plausible, the "certain death" outcomes of the three choices is laughably unrealistic.

A car modern enough to have autonomous driving would also have airbags up the wazoo and the latest in accident survival design. An autonomous car would not be traveling any faster than the speed limit, which is 30MPH or less on city streets and in neighborhoods. If the car can't protect its occupants in a 30MPH collision with a tree or other solid barrier, it doesn't meet modern safety standards. If the car can't protect its occupants in a 30MPH collision with another car traveling in the opposite direction at 30MPH, it doesn't meet modern safety standards. This also does not factor in that the autonomous system would be applying FULL BRAKES so the actual collision speed would be much lower than 30MPH.

So in this situation any decision other than to run over the person or large dog that just stepped out directly in front of the car, would be the right decision. Nobody would die. There would only be collateral damage.
 
Some of the questions raised won't be an issue. Like the 3' snow drift. Simple, if there are 3 foot drifts most likely there will be a travel advisory and the car won't move much less try plowing through a 3 foot drift.

But lets look at things first.

1: It will be years before they will be truly operational. You have to make every vehicle be able to communicate with every other vehicle. If they can't communicate they can't anticipate what the other vehicle is doing. So they will be equipped with steering wheels and brake pedals for a long time to come. What is being put out now is experimental only, not production. For a while going to be like a tractor with auto steer and GPS. Still need someone in the operators seat to take over.

2: It's coming! Not tomorrow or the next day. I figure at least 10 years, maybe more.

3: The car not the owner/operator will decide what route and speed to travel based on road condition reports, traffic, time of day ECT. That hour long commute just turned into an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours. No travel advised? You ain't going anywhere! 5 MPH over the posted limit? Forget it. Once people realize this they will fight it.

4: Another factor that will slow it down is it will take the government forcing it and eventually providing tax breaks to get people to switch over to it.

Rick
 
This debate will go on just about forever.
My opinion of autonomous cars is that they are a stupid and dangerous idea. Then there are people that will try to do it just to see if it can be done.
I can't see AI ever becoming "smart" enough to make every decision correctly that might arise in just normal driving. Mixing human drivers with autonomous vehicles is a recipe for problems. Humans are unpredictable. Computers are only as smart as the programmers that program them.
Sooner or later, the government will get involved.
Personally, I think that they should be limited as to where and when they can travel, and should be segregated from the general motoring public.
 
(quoted from post at 08:25:52 01/18/18) This debate will go on just about forever.
My opinion of autonomous cars is that they are a stupid and dangerous idea. Then there are people that will try to do it just to see if it can be done.
I can't see AI ever becoming "smart" enough to make every decision correctly that might arise in just normal driving. Mixing human drivers with autonomous vehicles is a recipe for problems. Humans are unpredictable. Computers are only as smart as the programmers that program them.
Sooner or later, the government will get involved.
Personally, I think that they should be limited as to where and when they can travel, and should be segregated from the general motoring public.

Yeah, let Hawaii have them....I enjoy driving.
 
I don't picture myself in ten years driving my classic truck on the highway with nothing other then driverless vehicles. What is everyone going to do with their classics? Make large nik-naks out of them?
 
In my mind computers are not worthy of the task. My H-P is two years old and it sounds like a gnome inside is playing drums on the casing. My GPS is not perfected and regularly screws up . My Cadillac mirrors readjust themselves every time I stop the car{ why oh why ] , what is to stop the computer telling the car to go of coarse.
 
Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will self driving cars be built in a day. They will not be released until ALL the problems you talk about below have been solved. It will
happen. May be 50 yrs. but it will happen. One thing I can see to solve many of your concerns is designated roads for the self drivers. They did it back in the 50s-60s. It is the
interstate hyway system. Can't drive anything less then 45 mph. on interstate. They are designated for over 45 traffic. No model Ts. no tractors. no combines. no bicycles. So this
new road system will be designated for self drivers only.
 

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