The reason nothing's made in America

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member
Location
Twin Cities
I was talking to my neighbor last night.
He's a machinest at a local company here. Medium sized shop but they are real busy now and they're working a lot of overtime.
They have been advertising for help wanted. Going through a couple of head hunter firms, etc.
They can not find anyone qualified to do the work.
They've hired a couple of guys in the last few months but they just dont have the skills.
So they've had to let them go.
He told me about the last guy they had to let go. They had him cut a bunch of pieces of cold rolled for a job. When my neighbor went to do the machining on them EVERY single piece was 3/16" too short. My neighbor was frustrated but looked into what happened. The guy's tape measure must have gotten dropped and the hook on the end was badly bent under - 3/16". The new guy hadn't even noticed it. That's not the reason they let him go. He did all kinds of other dumb things before and after that.
I was kind of amazed.
The people who are applying just don't have basic skills.
Many of them get weeded out before they even get the job because of bad background checks.
America doesn't have the skills anymore.
This is a good, solid company with excellent pay and benefits so good compensation is not the issue.
We gripe about all the foreign made stuff but we don't have the skills to make better.
I've thought about this since last night and it's got me feeling bad.
End of rant.
Go forth and have a good, productive day.
Jerry
 
This is exactly what a lot of companies have been screaming about. We need to better fund community colleges and workforce initiatives that train workers for the jobs at hand. It starts with funding and placing more emphasis on Career & Technical classes in High School. For cripes some of the advanced technical skills pay as much as your average MD, without the necessary insurance and overhead costs. Bernie had it right when he called for free community college tuition , however I would put a few caveats on that with some public service required after graduation.
 
Interesting story Ultradog ...... but really, guys have been screwing up at work and getting fired since the first job opening happened countless years ago. I'm sure a lot of companies have a lot of guys working for them that could tell us stories about good, dependable employees that never let anybody down. Not that the situation you mention isn't worth discussing, it's just that on the whole, things aren't all that bad I don't think. The real reason we have lost manufacturing jobs is because corporations prefer to pay $4 per hour for labor offshore as opposed to $25 (which seems necessary to allow us to keep up with our lifestyles that we won't give up).
 
I'm not in favor of starting any wars, and I never have been in the military, but I wonder how much discipline, sacrifice, and good sense WWII put into millions of men who came home in the US and built what used to be the world powerhouse of industry. Not to mention all of the kids coming off the farm over the last half century. There is something about hard work as a kid that is carried through the rest of your life. I own a small business and I am amazed that we have to reach young men how to use a broom.
 
(quoted from post at 06:04:14 01/10/18) I was talking to my neighbor last night.
He's a machinest at a local company here. Medium sized shop but they are real busy now and they're working a lot of overtime.
They have been advertising for help wanted. Going through a couple of head hunter firms, etc.
They can not find anyone qualified to do the work.
They've hired a couple of guys in the last few months but they just dont have the skills.
So they've had to let them go.
He told me about the last guy they had to let go. They had him cut a bunch of pieces of cold rolled for a job. When my neighbor went to do the machining on them EVERY single piece was 3/16" too short. My neighbor was frustrated but looked into what happened. The guy's tape measure must have gotten dropped and the hook on the end was badly bent under - 3/16". The new guy hadn't even noticed it. That's not the reason they let him go. He did all kinds of other dumb things before and after that.
I was kind of amazed.
The people who are applying just don't have basic skills.
Many of them get weeded out before they even get the job because of bad background checks.
America doesn't have the skills anymore.
This is a good, solid company with excellent pay and benefits so good compensation is not the issue.
We gripe about all the foreign made stuff but we don't have the skills to make better.
I've thought about this since last night and it's got me feeling bad.
End of rant.
Go forth and have a good, productive day.
Jerry

Has that company never heard of an apprenticeship program?
 
I had a helper who damaged the end of my stick rule then took a hacksaw and cut it at the one inch line. Took me a while to figure why nothing fit. Neither of us were fired though.
 
If throwing more money into education was the answer the USA would be far ahead of everyone else in the world instead of falling back all the time.And Bernie would tax companies like
this one out of business.The whole mind set now is anyone that works with their hands,back etc is in a terrible job and they need to get more education so they can get a job
where they set on their butts and do next to nothing to be considered successful.
 
It is troubling how the level of common sense has dropped. I blame it on the digital age, too dependent on artificial intelligence to need to think for themselves.

Tape measures, scary how many people cannot look at the markings and instantly know what the measurement is. Then there are those who have to stand there and "count the little lines". Still others that have no clue.

Just reading this mornings paper about the changes in the immigration laws coming soon. About companies that will be forced to lay off 2/3 of their work force in order to not be in violation of employing illegals. They can not find anyone that is willing to take the jobs, let alone have the necessary skills.

Some of these companies will probably close, or relocate outside of the country. The laid off employees will either leave the country, or go into hiding, working under the table, not paying taxes or SS.
 
I worked same factory for 22 years. Could not get people that could do basic labor. They came and went in droves. The company had about 40 legal Hispanics when I left. Some were very good at the entry level jobs. I keep wondering about this talk of bringing all these jobs back to America while deporting all these Hispanics. The factories here, several of them, cannot get enough people for $13 to $18 an hour entry level pay.
 
I agree with the fellow that mentioned the apprenticeship program. Very few places do them.

Also I have seen people who do a good job get fired ! They must of told someone higher up the truth they couldn't handle ?
 
First off I don't have the answers. From my experience some younger generations want more and are wanting to work less. I can't get help on the farm and have offered $10 an hr cash. I have worked and trained others only to have them make more than me because they were younger. There are places where the managers think experience doesn't matter as long as there is a warm body at the job. Most of these places the management is very poor.
The military is very important in today's society because it teaches kids discipline, something single mothers and most men can't do nowdays.
 
Up to a point, you make some sense, but you cannot paint the entire USA with such a broad brush. Skills are learned, not instinctive.
We do have the skills. Maybe not in your particular area, but we have many talented folks here in the US. They just didn't happen to apply to the place you are ranting about.
Yes, there are a lot who will not pass background checks. But, are employers being fair in rejecting people just on a past mistake or two? I'm sure we all have done things in the past that might have looked bad on a background check IF WE HAD GOTTEN CAUGHT!!!
Many of the trades are no longer viable for making a lifelong career choice. Take a look around. In many trades, there is just not enough work to make a living out of. Much of that work has been replaced by cheaper mass production and throwaway units.
Think about an appliance repairman. It generally costs more to fix a broken appliance than to replace it. Would it pay to learn to fix toasters when you can get a new one for $10? Or a mixer, a blender, or a waffle iron?
Yes, it is hard to hire good help. Because they generally already have good jobs that pay well. They also migrate to where there is work enough to support them.
 
Plumbing contractor we work with all the time has had an ad running for help most of 2017. No one even applies. And he will pay well for good help.
 
until I retired five years ago at 62 I had 13 full and part tine jobs over my working lifetime. I am also the son of a farmer and a army vet.

15 years for the USPS

19 years at two factory jobs

I have also been a auto parts runner a bartender a grease monkey a food/produce deliverer and a few others along the way.

I never mastered a skill. (much to my regret)

I always thought I gave a honest days work for an honest days pay. although I admit some days were better than others.

am I tooting my own horn? not really. all I am saying if a person has the right work ethic anything is possible and with the right work ethic a decent life can be had. skill or no skill.
 
alot of folks on this site can blame themselves for it as well. How many parents pushed for higher education. it's funny how most of the immigrants that do all the work have less than a average of grade 6 education.

Farms getting bigger is also part of the problem. most of the industrial workers came off a farm, those were the children who had to learn a little of mechanics, carpentry, electrical and anything else that had to be done on the farm to be self reliant.

Today everyone thinks they have to have bigger equipment, bigger pay check, all the toys, etc.. Who taught them this. I look at the farmers today that tell there 1 or 2 children(instead of 4-6) " you go to university and get an education not work on the farm ". where I live the BTO'S have 1 or 2 children and they are not even allowed to work on the farm. School work only. My nephew went to work for one and when the kid graduated he came to work in the shop for a month before he went to university. didn't even no where to find the broom to sweep the floor after breaking a coffee cup.

this is the fault of farmers as much as anyone else. Had they kept the farm manageable with smaller equipment and family workers the extra children learnt and went and got jobs off the farm in manufacturing. Now it is hard pressed to find a child that stays on the family farm because they have been discouraged there whole life from doing so.

Friend of mine has a 14 year old son (he's a bee keeper). Hirer's 2 immigrants every year. says he will not force his child to be a bee keeper. if he wants to when he's 18 he will teach him. Too late by then to teach a child to work. Now he's 17 and nothing but a trouble maker, drives around shooting deer off the road on private property. This is a so called good Christian family (NOT IN MY OPINION). when true Christian values left this country so did work ethic. Bible says "if you don't work you don't eat" when people believed this they make sure there child has everyday skills.

sorry for long post
and getting off in a different direction.
 
Every intelligent and motivated new employee will still need some extensive training before they can do any job well. If your friend's company expects to hire journeyman level machinists that will start at minimum wage, they will soon be screaming that they need to bring in HB1 visa workers too. If they want to hire trained people away from other companies, they need to pay significantly higher than what those trained people are currently making now.
 
So many times today the person interviewing job candidates for say a job in a shop does not know what is required skills for that job. If the candidate has good BS skills they get the job. Have seen it happen more than once.
 
elton fancher- "cannot get enough people for $13 to $18 an hour entry level pay. "

That works out to ~ $26,000 to $36,000 per year. That isn't great money, it's okay but not great. Heck, that was my starting pay when I entered the workforce 37 years ago.
 
For many years I had what you say an easy job. I use to say any body could do it even a monkey. I was a custodian for a school district. it was amazing to me how many people we hired that could not clean they had to be train. So we would train them when school was out which gave use the time to work with them and get them to do things in a matter we wanted it to be done. Well a lot of them could not even follow directions. I still was in surprised by it but like always we had to let them go. cleaning is not that hard of a job all you have to know is what you are cleaning up and follow you cleaning chemicals solutions. All this years I had title it my stupid job. I am now retired from it and plan to enjoy my Automotive / tractor side of me.
 
Let's try this again. Lots of good comments here. In your example it is the lack of good candidates but elsewhere the problems could be any number of things. I know of a company that failed because they could not adapt to change. Another failed when the son took over for the father and he lacked the ability and was bad tempered to boot.
 
I agree that kids need to start learning how to work early, that does not mean they have to do all hard work but to see what needs done and learn how to figure out what needs done and how to do it. And at 6 years old you are old enough to learn how to clean up something like that coffee cup if you break it. My friend that is the machinery jocky that gets all the hay rakes I can get ready for the field and has a small general store with mostly used items his 10 year old boys will be out starting to unload a rake as soon as I get there without any instruction. They see how work is done and just do it.
 
I will be up front and state my bias as a former career military with a tour of duty as an instructor in a technical field.
The 1970s was the introduction in the corporate take over of government. You began hearing things like the military should be run like a business.
With this thinking, it was stated that the government spends money on technical training for individuals who leave service after 4 years. This was the justification for closing many technical training centers. What this really translates to is, corporate contacts to do the work previously done by military personnel.
Even though a percentage of individuals did leave service after 4 years. For those 4 years they did provide a ready source for manpower for any event that may happen in the country or the world. Additionally, these individuals had training and job experience to fill the needs of civilian industry.
Now industry complains about not having qualified people to fill technical jobs. The answer is for government to spend money to educate civilians to fill the jobs.
At least active duty military personnel provided a service to government while getting the training and job experience. I personally know several people from homes without resources for further education, who left the military to be self supporting and raise a family. Several also used the GI bill to get college degrees and entered engineering fields.
Many of you may be to young to be aware, but post WWII, people had jobs. Many jobs derived from military experience. Cooks open a restaurant or burger joint, aircraft and motor pool mechanics open an auto repair shop, radar technicians open a Radio/TV repair shop, heavy equipment operators to support construction, medics go into the medical field.
There is a reason we do not have people fill technical jobs. Those most suited for technical jobs don't have the resources or opportunity for training and experience.
 
I'm now working in my 2nd foundry. Spent 31 years at the 1st one, 5 years at this one. This gives me the ability to look at the work force in generations and it is not a pretty picture. The stuff we did manually in my youth, the kids coming in now cry about and they got machines to do it for em, if you can keep em off their phones long enough to remember they have a job they're supposed to be doing, I can still outwork most of em cause they just ain't got the skill set or the strength to operate even a scoop shovel. Bottom line regardless of what we do for a living, we knew how to work, use tools, think, basically get stuff done without needing a babysitter. Kids today not so much. We do get one every once in a while that is an exception so it's not hopeless. It's just sad to work at a place that could be a world class facility, and yet remains a place mired in mediocrity and boredom.
 
Gotta agree with a few and disagree with others.

A large part of this started when I was a kid in the 60's. I well remember Mrs Brown in 3rd Grade and Mrs Glover in 4th telling us kids over and over how we didn't want a career actually working. We were told we wanted careers where you wore a tie to work every day.

I was a caree NCO in the army, Armor. Wasn't my job to teach your kid self discipline or common sense! My job was to teach your kid how to survive on the battle field! My job was to teach your kid to make war and destroy the enemy! My job was to insure they could fight and win! It was your job to teach the self discipline and common sense.

As far as attracting qualified workers? Well you get what you pay for. Last I checked an experienced machinist should be making around 60-70K a year. If the company is looking for experience they have to pay for it. Granted they have to raise prices to cover the additional expense but that's life. And that's where jobs today are being done off shore. If company A has stuff done off shore company B has to follow suit to be competitive.

Kids coming off the farm for WWII did have all the skills people seem to think. They didn't start getting electricity until 1934. Then many because of the depression couldn't afford it. Lotta those kids came off farms that were plowing with animals too so they really didn't know much about mechanics either. And the vast bulk who joined or were drafted came out of cities and towns.

Rick
 
The reason nothing thing is made in America because of the American people. American people wanted cheap products and bought products made overseas. The American workers cut their own throats.
 
How many times have I said it already? Mommy says "No kid of mine will get his precious little hands dirty!".

That comes from a guy who has two sons who are machinists and a son in law who is head of maintenance at Denso Corporation radiator and condenser core division.

They all make a whole lot more money than the old man does.
 
As a rule, Americans are lazy and entitled.

There is very little we can do to grow our economy unless we have workers, as a rule, the migrants are hard working.
 
they will if someone has made them in the past. and showed them how. those are the guys with time to teach there children. to many today have there mind on making money and running themselves raged they don't have time to teach there children anything.
 
'free education' will get you the mess of paid protest-everything bunch at Berkeley and maybe degees in basket weaving & perhaps something as useful as 'social entrepreneur'!
 
Today's kids have more skills than just about anyone on this forum.....it's in computers and software etc. They don't have any skills or desire to work the ground or work with their hands. They can work remotely from home or an office loaded with perks. On site day care, massue, maternity and paternity leaves etc. The Labor Department reports that software developers made a median salary of $100,080 in 2016. The highest-paid 10 percent in the profession earned $157,590 in 2016, while the lowest-paid earned $58,300.
 
Here's some small counterpoint. I am a very skilled person at my craft. I'm quite well paid. We do have the skills in this country to do many things. However, in most cases it's far cheaper to bid the work out to a foreign company, and have the product shipped here.

My job can't be outsourced(easily), and for that I'm very grateful. Machining as mentioned is something that can, and is often outsourced. It is the capitalist system. Cutting or lathing steel is not unique or even very difficult to train. So, we can train someone to do that, set them up with the machine and pay them $0.65 per hour rather than $22-30 per hour to do the same job in the US.

Sorry....
 
I agree. Most Americans have priced themselves out of the market. They want high pay but they want cheaper items. As one guy told me. Why work when you can get paid not to. Most Americans are lazy.
 
(quoted from post at 08:31:18 01/10/18) Here's some small counterpoint. I am a very skilled person at my craft. I'm quite well paid. We do have the skills in this country to do many things. However, in most cases it's far cheaper to bid the work out to a foreign company, and have the product shipped here.

My job can't be outsourced(easily), and for that I'm very grateful. Machining as mentioned is something that can, and is often outsourced. It is the capitalist system. Cutting or lathing steel is not unique or even very difficult to train. So, we can train someone to do that, set them up with the machine and pay them $0.65 per hour rather than $22-30 per hour to do the same job in the US.

Sorry....

I was watching a show as to why germany, with 1 percent of the world population have a gdp much higher. There they have apprenticeship programs and pay the workers very well...they seem to be able to make it work for somehow.
 
I learned a few days ago that sometime since the 1970's they stopped teaching fractions. Had a new guy on the job (construction assistant) that couldn't read fractions on a tape measure. Didnt even know what a fraction was.... He said when he was hired he could read a tape. When we asked him he demonstrated that he could read, 1, 2, 3..... wow.... just wow.....
 
No skilled young workers out there because they are all tuned-into the blankety-blank entertainment/news? media who stomps all over blue-collar America. And thanks to them soon there will not be any.

Today a young man's idea of success is some unshaven creep with new clothes who just parked his Mercedes and is walking down the sidewalk noodling with his iPhone headed for a coffee shop.
 
(quoted from post at 11:49:51 01/10/18) No skilled young workers out there because they are all tuned-into the blankety-blank entertainment/news? media who stomps all over blue-collar America. And thanks to them soon there will not be any.

Today a young man's idea of success is some unshaven creep with new clothes who just parked his Mercedes and is walking down the sidewalk noodling with his iPhone headed for a coffee shop.
he guy who peddles MJ to our kids? :x
 
Working in construction my entire life I know why Germany has such a high production rate. You want to be an architect? In the USA, you go to college and learn design and engineering. Germany? You apprentice in EVERY trade so that when you DO go to college, you have a background in the various disciplines. I've worked with plenty of architects that didn't understand why certain ideas just won't work until it's explained. As long as there's no arrogant attitude, we get along fine.
 
The machine shops have been taken out of the high schools in the false belief that tool and die is a dying trade. Machinist is a skilled trade not somebody off the street. If nobody is trained for the trade I don't know who to blame -- the industry has failed itself. Maybe they need an apprenticeship plan?
 
well the real reason nothing is made in America anymore is a lack of FOCUS. kinda like this Forum is supposed to be a Tractor Forum. :)
 
A "free education" will be worth what the student paid for it. As soon as everyone gets one they'll have to dumb it down so the stupid people can pass and the smart people will get their grades rounded down so their is a "curve" and not a cliff in the grading system. Can't have half the "adults" failing.


Its like my dad said - if he paid for 1 college education he would have to pay for 12 - and not all 12 of his kids belonged in college but if it was free all 12 would have d***ed sure went for the 4 year vacation. So he didn't pay a dime for anyone's college education - he had 8 kids graduate from college, 4 with masters degrees and 1 with a doctorate degree, not bad for a man that dropped out of school in 8th grade to go to work.
 
(quoted from post at 09:04:14 01/10/18)This is a good, solid company with excellent pay and benefits so good compensation is not the issue.

Nope, the company might be solid but the pay and benefits, etc. are below what qualified people are willing to change jobs for.
They are out there working for the competition, so if you want them you have to offer something better than where they are currently working.
Your pay and benefits are either good enough to attract and retain the employees you want or only good enough to be training people to become employees elsewhere.
 
A lot of good reasons stated already but one that is missing is the companies that now want skilled labor can blame themselves for it not being available. Companies want to turn the skilled labor supply on and off like a faucet. Need it this year hire. Don't need it next year lay off. Don't want to invest in training people just want them available when needed. From high school graduation to highly skilled machinist takes how many years? I am going to guess 5 but probably more than that. Five years is about how long the boom and bust cycle of business takes. Not many companies are investing with over 5 years of thought. By the time a high school graduate gets some tech schooling and on the job training the boom has dried up and they can't find work.
 
Not saying this is the only answer but it worked of me. I grew up on a farm, we had dairy and stock cows, hogs, chickens, horses. The total farm in the 1970s was 2560 acres. We farmed about half of it with 2 5-14 bottom plows. The rest was pasture and hay ground that we mowed with a 9 foot mower. The corn & sunflowers were colvated with a 4 row. Point beening there wasn't much time to do anything but work so that is all I knew. I remember one time dad told my brother and I that if we wanted to go to the dance on Saturday night, we would have to have the planting done by then. We did it. I was also fortunate enough to have both my grandpa's show me how to fix anything. So I gained a lot of skills in my early ears.

Fast forward to my kids; video games were not allowed in our home. Personally I think a game now and then is OK but to spend hours on them is nothing but mind numbing activity. TV was what we could get off the air, Chores had to be done before school and after school. If the water froze in the winter, they had to figure out how to thaw it out. If the fence was down, they fixed it. They were all out for sports so sometimes that meant working in the dark in the winter time because of practice. They all got good grades too. Now my kids all are doing well, in fact they are making more money than I am,. And most important, none of them are living in my basement.

Point is there is nothing wrong with child labor as long as it not abused i.e. pulling kids out of school to work in a factory. They do need mentoring, develop problem solving skills and not Google every question put to them,

My $2.00 due to inflation
 
Used to be industry trained their own employees. Now the taxpayer is expected to drop fully day one functional employees in their laps?

For you guys living in the past, The American consumer certainly did not force corporations over sea. Unfettered capitalism, greed, lack of ethical behavior in the boardroom is what did it.
When the share price is more important than the product, the world needs a readjustment!
 
Well, since the 1960's "educators" have been driving it into students heads that you are a Neanderthal, knuckle dragging chump if you work for a living. Even back then, the majority of my teachers were snooty elitist snobs who considered any of us students who came from working families hardly worth their effort. If you took shop, ag, or BOCES classes, you were considered something to be scraped off their shoe. And if you displayed the audacity to get grades as good or better than their chosen few, then you spent the next three years getting hounded about how you were going to waste your life if you didn't become a doctor, lawyer, or teacher. Nearly 60 years of brainwashing students is going to have an effect.
 
The trouble with an unpaid apprenticeship here too is that it's just a form of slave labor. It's generally somebody do get coffee,make copies and run errands,not to train in any discipline.
 
Exactly; Wait, what ? Uh Oh, How many tractors are made in America ?

From what I have read so far the guys are focused right on topic !
 
No,but if they're gonna be there getting a "free" public education,they need to be learning a useful skill,not preparing to go to college whether they have any intention of going or not. I started school with a guy who was held back in kindergarten three times before they put him in the "special class". They kept him around until he was 18. The guy learned to weld,got a good union job and did better than most of us.
 
Fellows,
I did Not spell it out but the position is not for an apprentice. It is for a journeyman or near journeyman position.
I don't know exactly what my neighbor makes but will lay odds he's around $30/hr plus a good benefit package plus overtime.
 
That's what I keep saying, we have plenty of good jobs available, we just don't have the skilled workers available, and so many unemployed people seem to be un-trainable. Our son is in upper management in the paper industry, and just last night he was complaining about some of the workers, they keep making the same mistakes over and over, just don't get it! Where I go for medical care in MN many of the new doctors are foreign born and educated. Either young Americans don't want the responsibility or aren't smart enough to become doctors.
 
Those American companies who have sold out to foreign ownership did so because our government has made this country extremely business unfriendly, and incredibly difficult to remain competitive with businesses from other countries.

There are only two real reasons for any business to exist. 1: to make more money than you can make working for somebody else.
2: to be your own boss instead of getting bossed around.

Anytime the business climate is compromised as to threaten either of the above for whatever reason, the owner has two choices. Close the business and go back to work for someone else, or move the business to a friendlier, more competitive environment. Thats' called Capitalism and freedom of choice.
 
I'm a Canadian....in the late 1960's,1970's everyone in my part of Canada ( 400 mile radius..North Western Alberta & North Eastern British Columbia ) were continuing on with POST SECONDARY EDUCATION. For the most part, most people were successful in a Career and good Citizens.(Universities, Collages ,Vocational Institutes were full of Canadians)
Today,lack of work ethics,lack of POST SECONDARY EDUCATION as well as ENTITELMENT has opened the Job market to emigrants. These emigrants,know why, they are showing up to the work site.
I retired at age 58 1/2. Six years into retirement my e-mails from May,1>October,30 have requests to assist and sign log books on Gas Turbine Inspections for young Technicians.....99.999% Women.. Very well paid Career once they have four years in, and are able to work unsupervised.
The Institutes of POST SECONDAY EDUCTIONAL learning are full of NON CANADIAN CITIZENS, who then go back to their countries,then turn around and flood the Canadian Market with goods that they acquired the skills to produce in Canada!!!!!!
I recently returned to Canada (from Europe) for a request to preform a Borescope and pertinent inspection (Inspect a G.E. LM1600 GAS TURBINE).
I did enquired if I was to meet anyone else whom would be involved with the hands on Inspection?
And the Individuals answer " you Sir are one from a generation that has the skills and License. Tell me where I can obtain young Turbine Technicians?"If you know of anyone with the SKILL SET, is HEALTHY, has NO Criminal Record and has good work ethics, we shall send them with you"

Bob...A bit Red Neck..Retired Power Engineer / Gas Turbine Back Ground:
 
Russ from MN, what is the company doing about it? Raising wages to attract top talent? Developing an apprentice program? Offering temp positions to people outside of the area and paying for hotels? Buying automated equipment that requires less manpower? There are all sorts of things that can be done to bridge a short term problem and fix it long term.
 
Problem is, that is about all entry level manufacturing jobs will start out at. And if anyone thinks companies are going to rush back to the USA to pay Americans a lot more than they have to pay somewhere else good luck. Now not many factories even have a retirement plan, just a 401K. Many don't match much of that. I do believe many folks think if we can get rid of welfare, food stamps and disability checks, we can fill the work force, but there really are so many of those people who are flat out unemployable in the workplace. I sure don't know much about what we ought to do, but I know it is a 2 way street.
 
I didn't read every post so forgive me if someone already brought this up.
I watched a show on PBS not long ago that stated that the US is the leader in manufacturing and it is the highest it has ever been.

I read a lot if post that said kids are lazy. Well aren't we lazy compared to our parents and grandparents. Who wants to go stand behind a plow all pay or for that matter spend the whole day on a open station tractor.

Now what about drug testing. I always hear no one can pass a drug test. Now I'm not saying it's ok to go to work stoned but maybe it was easier to fill a position when people were graded on their performance.
 
I don't know what full welfare bennies amount to in your state Russ, but in NY they amount to the general neighborhood of +$30,000. That is about the biggest incentive to not want to want to work I can think of. Cut those bennies back down to $15,000-$20,000 and all of a sudden the incentive to work would rear it's head again, wouldn't you think? This all started in the mid 60's with good intentions and like usual for goobermint programs, ballooned out of control. There really is no incentive to work when you can make that kind of money doing nothing. One factor is that bennies are all or nothing. Once you reach a certain income level you are completely cut off and that income level is not enough to really make it without real hardship. If the benefits were reduced on a sliding scale until your working income reached the level any particular state determines is above poverty level, I think we would be more successful in getting US families off the dole and back to work. It took 60 years to destroy the will to work in Americans and it would take some time to correct it, but at least it would be a start.
 
We have some of that problem in my area also,but that it not the number one problem. The number one problem in our area is no one can pass a drug test. One company interviewed 100 applicants before they could find 5 to pass a drug test. I wonder what will happen when they legalize marijuana everywhere? Will drug testing go away?
 
I don't think the company is doing enough to solve the problem, one reason it's like that is this mill was shut down for awhile a few years ago, and I would expect the better employees moved away and found better jobs. That's why I admire Marvin Windows in N MN, the hourly wage is not that great but they have a profit sharing program so when the company makes money the employees get bonuses. During the housing recession 10 years ago when business was bad instead of laying off they reduced hours for everyone, that way they retained there good employees for when business improved, and now they are paying good bonuses again.
 
(quoted from post at 06:04:14 01/10/18) I was talking to my neighbor last night.
He's a machinest at a local company here. Medium sized shop but they are real busy now and they're working a lot of overtime.
They have been advertising for help wanted. Going through a couple of head hunter firms, etc.
They can not find anyone qualified to do the work.
They've hired a couple of guys in the last few months but they just dont have the skills.
So they've had to let them go.
He told me about the last guy they had to let go. They had him cut a bunch of pieces of cold rolled for a job. When my neighbor went to do the machining on them EVERY single piece was 3/16" too short. My neighbor was frustrated but looked into what happened. The guy's tape measure must have gotten dropped and the hook on the end was badly bent under - 3/16". The new guy hadn't even noticed it. That's not the reason they let him go. He did all kinds of other dumb things before and after that.
I was kind of amazed.
The people who are applying just don't have basic skills.
Many of them get weeded out before they even get the job because of bad background checks.
America doesn't have the skills anymore.
This is a good, solid company with excellent pay and benefits so good compensation is not the issue.
We gripe about all the foreign made stuff but we don't have the skills to make better.
I've thought about this since last night and it's got me feeling bad.
End of rant.
Go forth and have a good, productive day.
Jerry

Sounds like he was a saw operator? Lowest skill and pay in the shop, usually the spot everybody starts out in. I don't have any answers, but I know the last Toolmaker apprentice at my old company graduated in 1986.

It may be changing, but from the mid 80's thru about 2010, being a machinist or toolmaker didn't pay very well. I use to deal with a lot of companies, and in many cases, they simply cut pay, often by 20 to 30%. Very few left, there was nobody offering a better wage. Pensions went away, 401K's are ok, if you have the income to fund them.....
 
Russ from MN: One reason the Doctors are coming from other countries is the wage difference. So we are getting the best and brightest students from the other countries. They make many times more money here. Also there are programs that aid them over native born US citizens on getting into med school. For a US WHITE citizen to get into med school you just about have to have a straight four point average back to grade school to even get considered. You may even then get denied.
 
tall kid makes about 30 to 35 grand a year as a underground locator gas electric water phone if he messes up someone could dead before they knew what happened.
the you get these people that want $15 an hour to screw his order at mac donalds? don't make make much sense to me
 
Sounds like Marvin Windows has their act together. They have a plan to bridge the slow periods and reward the boom periods. My company does something similar with bonuses. We also have a well managed temporary work force and relationships with other companies that we can outsource work to if needed. All of this took years to develop and is actively managed. We have semi retired guys who like to work once in a while. We keep in touch with them and let them know what work might be coming their way and when. We have meetings with our outside flex companies to discuss what we might need from them every few months. We purposely send out a percentage of our work to temporary workers and outside flex companies. When we get slow we pull back. When we get real busy we give them more. But we never completely turn it off. We give feedback to the outside flex companies. Telling them what is good work and what needs improvement. Again it took years to put all of it in place but once in place we have a way to balance boom and bust business cycles.
 
A lot of it has the do with the school now days and the NO one left behind so the kids learn little to nothing. Plus the colleges teach common sense right out of people also. When we went to school they taught reading writing math and TRUE U.S. History. Now days they are taught computer false history and how to be anti constitutional.

Shoot now days many that sit in elected offices do not even seem to understand the simple word ILLEGAL
 
Donald ........ I might have been one of those %$#@*&$% teachers you refer to, I can somehow visualize you as you were back in school. But it does look like at least one or two of them taught you how to spell and to write a sentence somehow. Not sure how your math skills are, I suspect they are half ways decent so it's nice to see somebody did their job anyways. That must have been quite a school you attended with the majority of teachers not up to your standards. I suspect they had their hands full at times with you along the way and you were maybe even a topic of discussion in the staff room now and then at lunch.
 
One of the reasons is planned parenthood has murdered the babies, birth control pills and IUDs have murdered the rest. Oh, did you believe the lie that the pill and IUD don't murder a baby? There are far fewer young people to do the work.
 
I do think it is starting to change. Trade schools are getting a lot more business now. colleges are getting to be a joke. certified machinists are hard to find just like certified welders couple that with the drug tests makes it harder. Legalizing pot isn't a good direction. A good friend of mine who is a principal in high school is telling the boys to go to a trade school due to what is going on in the colleges. The colleges get a lot of money from the government but they are not delivering like they should. your story has been told several times lately. Maybe some on will address it but don't think it will be soon cause that wont put any money in the poltical people.
 
That is my understanding that wages for a machinist have back slid for quite a while. Probably within 50 cents to a dollar per hour of flipping burgers or stocking shelves.
 
(quoted from post at 12:39:12 01/10/18)
(quoted from post at 08:31:18 01/10/18) Here's some small counterpoint. I am a very skilled person at my craft. I'm quite well paid. We do have the skills in this country to do many things. However, in most cases it's far cheaper to bid the work out to a foreign company, and have the product shipped here.

My job can't be outsourced(easily), and for that I'm very grateful. Machining as mentioned is something that can, and is often outsourced. It is the capitalist system. Cutting or lathing steel is not unique or even very difficult to train. So, we can train someone to do that, set them up with the machine and pay them $0.65 per hour rather than $22-30 per hour to do the same job in the US.

Sorry....

I was watching a show as to why germany, with 1 percent of the world population have a gdp much higher. There they have apprenticeship programs and pay the workers very well...they seem to be able to make it work for somehow.

I agree with the apprenticeship idea, but it requires the apprentice sign a contract saying he'll work at that company for X number of years after the apprenticeship is up. IIRC that idea is more or less illegal here in the US.
 
Yeah, all tractor engineers should have to repair tractors for 2 years before they learn to design tractor!
Have you ever wanted to have a little talk with the engineer that designed the tractor that you're working on? Ha ha
 
(quoted from post at 13:33:12 01/10/18) The trouble with an unpaid apprenticeship here too is that it's just a form of slave labor. It's generally somebody do get coffee,make copies and run errands,not to train in any discipline.

Who said anything about "unpaid"?
 
(quoted from post at 14:55:34 01/10/18) I didn't read every post so forgive me if someone already brought this up.
I watched a show on PBS not long ago that stated that the US is the leader in manufacturing and it is the highest it has ever been.

PBS is lying to you. Find out exactly what they define as manufacturing and see if it lines up with what you think of as manufacturing! I;m betting it's not even close.
 
(quoted from post at 15:00:01 01/10/18) I don't know what full welfare bennies amount to in your state Russ, but in NY they amount to the general neighborhood of +$30,000. That is about the biggest incentive to not want to want to work I can think of. Cut those bennies back down to $15,000-$20,000 and all of a sudden the incentive to work would rear it's head again, wouldn't you think? This all started in the mid 60's with good intentions and like usual for goobermint programs, ballooned out of control. There really is no incentive to work when you can make that kind of money doing nothing. One factor is that bennies are all or nothing. Once you reach a certain income level you are completely cut off and that income level is not enough to really make it without real hardship. If the benefits were reduced on a sliding scale until your working income reached the level any particular state determines is above poverty level, I think we would be more successful in getting US families off the dole and back to work. It took 60 years to destroy the will to work in Americans and it would take some time to correct it, but at least it would be a start.

AMEN DON!!! The working poor in NYS get screwed royally.
 
Hmmm. I think if I had someone cutting up stock metal material into machinable pieces I would require them to use something more accurate than a common tape measure....like a vernier caliper.....how to use them isn't too complicated.....and they're relatively inexpensive.....and a nice starter tool to use to exemplify precision measurement and application to beginners in the machinist trade.
 
When they legalized marijuana here in Colorado, the Mexican drug lords that controlled the trade were pretty much out of a job.
Prohibition caused more crime in the 20s and it causes crime today.
There are countries where drugs are legal. Guess what. The percentage of people who take drugs is exactly the same here as in the countries where it is legal. So we have over a million people in jail that have not committed a violent crime, but only have bought or sold drugs. We have spent billions of dollars fighting drugs without having any affect in stopping people from taking drugs. If a person is going to take drugs, he is going to do it even if it is illegal. I say make all drugs legal. If a person wants to ruin their own life, there is little you can do to stop them. Of course it should be illegal to drive drunk or on drugs. The penalty for that should be even increased from what it is now.
 
Absolute destruction of the vocational training programs in public schools brought about by the educational lobby in the last 50 years or so. Around the mid 60's the teachers unions decided that they had to dumb down all public education to compensate for the large percentage of morons in their own ranks.
 
a record ?

gotta hand it to ya UD this pundification of yours got more responses than i have ever seen.

you da man!
 
(quoted from post at 12:30:35 01/10/18)
(quoted from post at 14:55:34 01/10/18) I didn't read every post so forgive me if someone already brought this up.
I watched a show on PBS not long ago that stated that the US is the leader in manufacturing and it is the highest it has ever been.

PBS is lying to you. Find out exactly what they define as manufacturing and see if it lines up with what you think of as manufacturing! I;m betting it's not even close.
Program is called America revealed. Check it out. I have no reason to believe it's lies. I do believe the pay for the same jobs are probably the same or lower than the past.
Are local machine shop has been looking for a machinist helper. I have dealt with the machinist quite a bit and we have become somewhat friends. I asked him what the pay was. Hey replied probably minimum.
 
Well if you think about it the Abortions that have been done in the past say 40 plus year it has been legal good chance the cure for cancer and many other things was killed out before the person who would have found the cure was kill. Or in other words Abortions not only kill babies it also kills what they may have been able to do for the people that are now alive
 

In the 1980’s the school board here sold most of the shop equipment for scrap and turned the rooms into computer labs .
The thinking of the time and still to an extent today is that dirty trade jobs are not required . The school board claims that Today’s clean economy will be computers, accounting, legal, engineering , marketing , medical , communication and renewable energy.
The local power utility went to my daughter’s College and made a presentation that they were hiring apprentice mechanics .
 
Several people have said apprentice program. When my dad was working at a machinery dealer they had a KID from Sweden come to work. If I remember correctly he was a little over 17 years old. He knew more than the whole bloody shop put together!!! This kid took an IH axial flow combine apart by himself with a 3 ton column hoist and not only repaired but modified the sysrem to work better and more reliably. IH sent in the regional manager and a couple of engineering guys to see what this kid did. Many European countries still have very high quality apprenticeship schools and the companies pay for them. Want to work for VW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lamborghini? They will school you but you WILL be working for them for a lot of years.
 
you are correct in that abortions due snuff out a life but to say another Einstein was prevented from being born is just opinion and speculation. no mas.
 
My wife's company had a different issue; work ethic. They would hire someone and it was a crap shoot if they actually showed up for work. And if they did it was another gamble if they worked a whole day or week. Another gamble if they actually did anything while there.
 
(quoted from post at 18:16:28 01/10/18) you are correct in that abortions due snuff out a life but to say another Einstein was prevented from being born is just opinion and speculation. no mas.

Could also say they prevented more Hitlers, serial killers, child abusers, etc. also
 
True but at the same time also very, very likely to have happened and we will never know at least not in the life time we have here on earth but after we die we may well find out that the one thing that could have saved the world form something major was kill off by an abortion. Of course on the other hand the same holds true that another Hitler or Mason could also have been killed. But either way abortion as per the good book is wrong period and is a form of murder
 
I will revisit this topic. I have two kids, both in their mid 20s. Both have completed engineering degrees. Both were snatched up right out of college for big companies with very good pay. WELL over $30/hour plus healthcare, vac, and 401K, etc. They have a sinecure where they work because they work hard, they are honest, and they don't do drugs or have a criminal record.

I think it's past time we stopped blaming the KIDS for their failings. You know where the blame lies. You just don't want to admit it(I will exempt the guy who's kids were not allowed video games. You sir - are doing it right).
 
(quoted from post at 23:43:18 01/10/18) My wife's company had a different issue; work ethic. They would hire someone and it was a crap shoot if they actually showed up for work. And if they did it was another gamble if they worked a whole day or week. Another gamble if they actually did anything while there.

There was a business in my hometown that did a lot of handwork assembly. They relied on minimum wage earners for employees. Their official roster was double the number of employees needed for any one day. Some would show, some wouldn't. Some days they would send a few people home if they had too many, more often the office ladies would be calling around to see if they could drum up enough bodies. Ran this way from the 70's up until recently. They ran out of work, Made in USA doesn't mean as much any more. Most of their product went overseas to customers that wanted American made product.

Employees not showing up is nothing new depending on the business you are in.
 
Don, I've always said that if they had to work 40 hours a week to get an equivalent of minimum wage benefits, it would possibly cause thinking that if they had to work either way to get the money, maybe they'd try to better themselves and make more money than a 40 hour workweek equating to minimum wage.
 
Prove it?

http://hechingerreport.org/u-s-now-ranks-near-bottom-among-35-industrialized-nations-math/
 
About 25 years ago, I was working for a company that employed about 35,000 people, at that time. This was a business that needed to stay open 24-hours a day, most of the year round.
So they hired 20 people to start on the night shift. The pay was excellent, they contributed HEAVILY to your health insurance and gave many perks. They matched your 401K 100%. In other words, if you put in $1, they contributed $1 for your retirement. While these employees started on night shift, after 30 days you could transfer to day shift. All 20 of these hires were ages 21-30. Not to mention the name of the company, but everybody here has heard of it.
So between 11:00 PM and 7:30 AM, the hours of the night shift on their very first shift, 19 of them had quit. The last one quit on the second day of work. These were non-skilled employees, about the same type that might be able to memorize the phrase "Do want that supersized?" or "Do you want fries with that?"
I guess they had an easier time making good money by doing something else. Or maybe not doing anything else.
 
Part of it is that our safety net is too big and too easy to fall into. If these kids were hungry and didn't have their next meal guaranteed, you'd be surprised how smart they could become.
 
They are being educated in their birth country, then coming to the US, and of course they make more money here, medical care is a big business here!
 

It is very easy to place blame on the kids, on schools, on parents, etc. The corporation I worked for did very little to keep their pipe line filled or train new workers? How can it be that workers skilled in the very job you have open, at the very time you need them are available to fill the position. I believe there is plenty of culpability to go around.
 
Good Friend next door is 68 Retired Plummer/Welder /now works part time at a lumber store in town /full time =they cant find any one Who Know's any thing/he does a lot of local drop off's [ He Can Count Roofing/ Plywood items like that.The young ones over or Under Count Supplys going out.
 
The proof is in the pudding, as the old saying goes, if you can't see it then you must have blinders on.
 
dpittman you described my workplace...I've been the same place 30+years, started right out of tech school to be a toolmaker. I now make a good wage, great benefits, clean climate controlled environment. Was the manager of the toolroom for many years, I know how hard it is to hire people, the last two...one quit after 1.5 years as he didn't think he was appreciated, wasn't learning any thing, had to constantly ask him to put his phone away...the current one is last to show up, first to leave, he spent two years at the same tech school I went to. Hes been here five years, hasn't progressed in any way, hasn't bought anymore than the basic tools. Doesn't show any want to do anymore than the minimum to get a check. It's frustrating to watch a company with such great resources founder like we do.
I'm back to being a toolmaker here to try and pick up the slack. I can't run the cnc machines like a few of the other guys, but I don't need a drawing or a program to tell my machine what to do. Thanks for letting me vent.
 
Over 55 MILLION abortions in the US since the 1973 Supreme Court decision. Gosh, how many would be paying into SS by now?
 
He was cutting them to length, not diameter. A vernier caliper would be of no use for a length measurement.
 
My Dad has said for years that the reason we have so many lazy, worthless people in the US anymore is because, 'they have never been hungry enough'.
 
(quoted from post at 20:23:26 01/10/18)A vernier caliper would be of no use for a length measurement.
Depends. I have an 8" dial caliper. Also have my Dad's old (32", I think) vernier caliper. As long as the piece to be measured isn't longer than the capacity of the caliper, then it can accurately measure. Granted, a straight edge or tape measure might be a better choice, depending on tolerance allowances.
 
(quoted from post at 21:53:39 01/10/18)
(quoted from post at 20:23:26 01/10/18)A vernier caliper would be of no use for a length measurement.
Depends. I have an 8" dial caliper. Also have my Dad's old (32", I think) vernier caliper. As long as the piece to be measured isn't longer than the capacity of the caliper, then it can accurately measure. Granted, a straight edge or tape measure might be a better choice, depending on tolerance allowances.
I would think if someone was making multiple cuts they would set up a jig.
 
So are Crayola Crayons still made in Winfield KS. I know back when I lived in Winfield KS my parents never paid one red cent for them my dad just brought them home form the city dump
 
Well said.
When my boys were 3 and 4, we purchased some rental property. Several of them needed new roofs. We had the boys up helping us. Kept a close eye on em so they behaved. All four of my kids were raised working. Got a back hoe when they were 9 and 10 as well as other construction equipment. They grew up running equipment, pounding nails, stringing wire etc.
Youngest started working a paying job at 16. Moved in to management by 19. He just started working for Caterpillar, on the line so to speak. He is 27, and puts in 70+ hour weeks. What I call hungry, wants to make money to better things for his family.
Too many kids, the parents want them to have everything. When they reach puberty, they have no work ethic, and no job skills. Being able to do a boring task for four to six hours is an important skill. Too many have no patience.
 
Wanting to fix what is broke is not antiAmericanism. The person who sees a problem and does nothing is more a villain than the guy who points it out.
 
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there are very few people in prison convicted for only possession. The ones in Prison convicted of possession usually pled the other charges away. Things like violent assaults, weapons charges etc. That is one big lie spread by people wanting to undermine our government.
I personally favor decriminalizing pot, at least for medical purposes. I know a number of people with spinal injuries who get relief only from thc.
 
(quoted from post at 17:47:09 01/10/18)
(quoted from post at 12:30:35 01/10/18)
(quoted from post at 14:55:34 01/10/18) I didn't read every post so forgive me if someone already brought this up.
I watched a show on PBS not long ago that stated that the US is the leader in manufacturing and it is the highest it has ever been.

PBS is lying to you. Find out exactly what they define as manufacturing and see if it lines up with what you think of as manufacturing! I;m betting it's not even close.
Program is called America revealed. Check it out. I have no reason to believe it's lies. I do believe the pay for the same jobs are probably the same or lower than the past.
Are local machine shop has been looking for a machinist helper. I have dealt with the machinist quite a bit and we have become somewhat friends. I asked him what the pay was. Hey replied probably minimum.

Go to this link, hit the "max" button for the time frame and tell me the US is anywhere even close to the highest manufacturing it's ever been. There is a 70 point spread between today and the actual high point in the build up to WW2. Or go to any GDP chart and see what percentage of GDP industry makes up. Chinas industrial input makes up 40% of their GDP and the US is less than half that at 19.1%. In revenue China also dwarfs us by about 25% when you compare the industrial sectors as of 2015. Forecasts are that the US will pass China as the top manufacturing nation in a few years IF the current trend of making the US more business friendly continues.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/manufacturing-production

I suppose you could look at it as choosing which statistics to look at, but GDP is pretty good indicator of where the activity is in an economy.
 
(quoted from post at 00:23:26 01/11/18) He was cutting them to length, not diameter. A vernier caliper would be of no use for a length measurement.

I worked in a truss shop cutting lumber to length. We used stop blocks and every piece came out the right length. Didn't matter if it was 3" long or 23 foot 7 and 13/16 inches, they were all within a few hundreths of the same. It ain't rocket science.
 
(quoted from post at 22:34:04 01/10/18) According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there are very few people in prison convicted for only possession. The ones in Prison convicted of possession usually pled the other charges away. Things like violent assaults, weapons charges etc. That is one big lie spread by people wanting to undermine our government.
I personally favor decriminalizing pot, at least for medical purposes. I know a number of people with spinal injuries who get relief only from thc.

Medicinal marijuana is grown to be high in CBD. Not THC. CBD is suppose to help with pain. The type grown for medicinal purposes should not make you nearly as stupid.
 
Trail King, one of the largest trailer builders in U.S. has several planys in SD. They have a 90% turnover rate of fabricators, welders painters, their new hires.Lost within a year. Lots of reasons given but I think they need to look inward at their recruiting, training, interviewing and company morale. Half of the 90% are people who quit in less than a year.
 
I have a different take on this and I base my thought on wages. I guess it comes down to what is "good" pay and what is "great pay", etc. I guess that depends on one's wants, needs and lifestyle. I have been a HD equipment mechanic for about 30 years the last 27 in a union shop. I do "good" pay wise but not "great". Most likely I will be outsourced this year so I was talking to a friend that works at a shop doing CNC work. He said they are begging for people with any kind of mechanical aptitude, they've given up on finding experienced CNC guys. He said I could work up pretty quickly with my skill set, plus my dad owned his own tool and die shop so I do know my elbow from some stuff. He said the wages are "great"! I said whats the highest guy make? He's been there 25 years so he's "topped out" at $25/hr, that's about $50k/yr. Now, I don't think that's great. I make considerably more than that. My nephew just started an electrical engineering job right out of college with a very good company with great people for $70k with much better benefits, no Saturdays, etc. So, whats the motivation to be in a trade job? I know, I'll hear about the Love of the job or the "passion" for the work. Pfft! passion don't pay the bills. Society or business or the economy or whatever has changed and manufacturing and trade work just doesn't pay as well or in my opinion, enough.
 
(quoted from post at 14:54:55 01/11/18) Trail King, one of the largest trailer builders in U.S. has several planys in SD. They have a 90% turnover rate of fabricators, welders painters, their new hires.Lost within a year. Lots of reasons given but I think they need to look inward at their recruiting, training, interviewing and company morale. Half of the 90% are people who quit in less than a year.

Your competition LOVES companies that are happy to be the training facility so that they can hire them away with just a few more dollars more.
 

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