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I'd like to meet the idiot who's design almost killed me.

F

Fatjay

Member
I drive a 2007 Hummer H2, a truck I generally like the look and feel of. However, their throttle design leaves a bit to be desired.

There is no drive by wire, it's two throttle position sensors in the pedal and throttle body. It measures voltage and opens the throttle a set distance for the voltage. Seems simple enough, right? If there is a difference in voltage between the two sensors though, it shuts the engine down, so if there's a short it doesn't assume WOT, and run away on you. Seems simple enough for a safety feature.

Except I was driving down the road at 50mph going down a long hill when this happened. When this happens, you lose the ability to break or steer. I shifted to neutral real quick to try and restart, but the issue persisted through several attempts. Finally it kicked over with reduced engine power, and I was able to safely pull over to a side road out of traffic.

I can't understand who thought it was a good idea to just kill the engine when this scenario occurs. I'd prefer my regular wire throttle, thank you. And I can't just get the sensor, have to buy the whole new throttle body as it's one piece.
 
You don't "loose" the ability to steer or brake if the engine stalls, the steering and brakes just become stiff. It will still steer and brake,
albeit very hard. Your system is what is called drive by wire, and that system is what enables a lot of the neat features of the H2 to
function, such as the AWD and Stabilitrak. Just be glad that throttle body is somewhat affordable now, they used to be sky high.
 
This sort of thing is why I refuse to buy a vehicle made in the 21st century by anyone. The more electronics they put in a vehicle the worse they get. The malfunctions are bad enough but the cars are so screwy most mechanics can't find the problems and fix them.
 
I don't know why but that reminded me of my oldest brother when I was little. He had a 46 Ford and was trying to put brakes on it. He was so frustrated,he was yelling about how if he had Henry Ford right there he'd kill him. lol
 
It would be worse than you thought to meet the idiot who almost killed you. first you would find a dozen engineers who had a part in it over several years making small changes to the last design. Then you would find committees who disagreed on the outcome and finally had to rule by consensus even though the design engineers thought it was an idiotic idea to actually kill the engine. That probably came from lawyers worried about a runaway if this and that happens. And they can't agree among themselves. Then the accountants got involved and cut some unnecessary features the engineers put on as an extra layer of safety. Then the real idiot is the guy who buys a vehicle which is poorly designed and drives it anyway. It is really hard to pick the culprit.

I feel better now.
 
I believe that is a GM throttle system. Same as Tahoe and suburban, Have heard of people with same problem.
 
Along these lines, I went shopping for a new truck in 2011. Started at the nearest dealer and planned to fan out in a circle of increasing
diameter till I found something to suit me.

Nearest was a 45 year in business Chevy dealer and I immediately spotted what I wanted, the Blue Granite 4 door Silverado with the little
4.8 nice and simple V8. Drove it a couple of miles and told the second generation owner I'll take it. Had it since April 2011 and is the best
vehicle I ever owned. Been in their shop every year.......for a state vehicle inspection and nothing else. Just this year I put the first set of
wiper blades on it.

That was the year Uncle Sugar was in charge, remember the bail out thing? Being a retired design engineer, I know what it means when the
boss lets you do what you want and stays out of the way.......apparently Sam did just that. Results speak for themselves.
 
Andy Martin's reply below is dead on. There is no single engineer who sat down one week and designed that system just for your truck. It was adapted from other applications to allow mass production to reduce costs. It has been modified over the years multiple times. Just like Andy says there are committees that review this stuff and it includes a lot more than just engineers. Engineers who want to have a job quickly learn to compromise. Hard headed, it has to be done my way engineers, get fired. You may think that this is terrible but it makes that truck you drive affordable. If everything on your truck was designed to the highest possible standard you couldn't afford to buy it. There are 1000s of design compromises on your truck. You know of this one and probably a couple others and want those to be better. Someone else knows about different ones and wants only those improved. So if every design compromise is avoided to make every owner happy how much do you think that truck would cost? My bet is in the half a million dollar range.
 
I can't understand the logic in replacing a $5.00 throttle cable with $1500 worth of electronics that are less reliable than the $5.00 cable. Without question it makes the vehicle cost more.
 
(quoted from post at 07:50:00 09/22/17) I believe that is a GM throttle system. Same as Tahoe and suburban, Have heard of people with same problem.
Click to expand...

After searching around, I've found that to be the case. I can't imagine how something like that could go unchecked. People have the issue on the strait, but if you're coming up on a bend? I know normal power steering, and when it goes out it's hard, but manageable. However, this felt different, I couldn't move it at all.
 
thats one area where its always been a issue i got my wrecker engine stuck wide open back in the early 80's it has a hand throttle to increase rpm for the winches and i had the carb overhauled, [should have done it myself] the attachment for the hand throttle got put back differently than i had it and the next time i pulled a steep hill the bolt for that got stuck past the foot linkage and when i topped the hill the engine was still wide open, no stomping on the gas pedal would free it, lucky the solution is simple, turn it off, coast to a stop, and get out and fix it,cant do that on today's vehicles, one of the reasons i dont own one
 
(quoted from post at 03:28:47 09/22/17) I drive a 2007 Hummer H2, a truck I generally like the look and feel of. However, their throttle design leaves a bit to be desired.

There is no drive by wire, it's two throttle position sensors in the pedal and throttle body. It measures voltage and opens the throttle a set distance for the voltage. Seems simple enough, right? If there is a difference in voltage between the two sensors though, it shuts the engine down, so if there's a short it doesn't assume WOT, and run away on you. Seems simple enough for a safety feature.

Except I was driving down the road at 50mph going down a long hill when this happened. When this happens, you lose the ability to break or steer. I shifted to neutral real quick to try and restart, but the issue persisted through several attempts. Finally it kicked over with reduced engine power, and I was able to safely pull over to a side road out of traffic.

I can't understand who thought it was a good idea to just kill the engine when this scenario occurs. I'd prefer my regular wire throttle, thank you. And I can't just get the sensor, have to buy the whole new throttle body as it's one piece.
Click to expand...

what about the Ford pinto with the rupturing gas tank in a rear end collision? Or the old mustang that had the drop in gas tank? The company knew of these defects and chose to pay for any law suits as it would be cheaper than correcting the problem. Boardrooms only see dollars and cents and not the human misery and death caused by the usage of their products.
 
The $1500 electronics system controls more than just the throttle. It controls the entire engine. $1500 is what you pay for the replacement part it is not what it cost General Motors. The computer controls on modern engines are needed to meet EPA emission requirements and government mandates on fuel economy. So we are stuck with electronic controls on new automobiles until someone invents a better mouse trap that meets the government standards. Once you pay the cost to add the computer to a car it becomes relatively cheap to have the computer do more than what it absolutely would need to do to meet government standards. So instead of having some items computer controlled and some items done the old fashioned way it makes more sense economically just to put everything through the computer.
 
Andy, your explanation makes the upcoming driverless cars and trucks a real fun proposition.

Paul
 
When you find such seemingly incomprehensible designs look no farther than tort attorneys and federales.

Dean
 
Can't forget about Chevy/GMC pickups with
exploding outside the frame gas tanks.
 
[i:654c4848f0]The computer controls on modern engines are needed to meet EPA emission requirements and government mandates on fuel economy. So we are stuck with electronic controls on new automobiles until someone invents a better mouse trap that meets the government standards. [/i:654c4848f0]

Or until somebody invents a better government and all of this nonsense goes away.
 
I am with you Stephen, no 21st century vehicles for me. '90's forever. I don't like the looks of them and don't like anything about them. Air that don't cool because it uses too much gas...etc.
 
Imagine if they had a to drive a vehicle that didn't have PS or PB.


The H2 is just a Chevy 2500 with a shortened frame. I would think the manly stud that bought it could handle driving it for a minute or two without power steering - unless of course he's compensating for something.
 
We have a 2006 GMC regular cab LB with the 4.8. Runs like a swiss watch, I'm hoping to pick it up when the company sells it. Currently has about 195K on it.
 
Designs, durability and technology aside, I haven't seen anything in the past 5 years or so that looks good enough to buy. I'll pick on GM cause
I do love my Chevys, how can the same company that engineered the 67-72 truck series come up with the butt ugly stuff they're putting on car
lots nowadays? I ain't gonna spend that kinda money on something that looks that bad. I'll keep driving my 99 Dodge till it rusts out from under
me then scratch my head for something different.
,
 
(quoted from post at 06:27:36 09/22/17) Andy, your explanation makes the upcoming driverless cars and trucks a real fun proposition.

Paul
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward to driverless cars. How hard will they be to fake out at an intersection? Ha ha ha ha. Watch the driverless car sit still until there is no movement.

Or on the freeway, they are getting ready to pass you so you turn on your turn signal like you're going to change lanes. I'll wager the software will not let it pass you.

I can not believe how the car companies are touting they will save you from inattentive driving. When those systems fail there will be lots of wrecks and associated lawsuits.
 
(quoted from post at 06:10:43 09/22/17)
what about the Ford pinto with the rupturing gas tank in a rear end collision? Or the old mustang that had the drop in gas tank? The company knew of these defects and chose to pay for any law suits as it would be cheaper than correcting the problem. Boardrooms only see dollars and cents and not the human misery and death caused by the usage of their products.
Click to expand...


Don't forget GM built their cars the same way during that era, the Chevy Vega could erupt into flames like the Pinto. Ford sold way more Pinto's than Chevy sold Vega's. Don't forget about the GM trucks with the fuel tank mounted outside the frame that could burn people up in a side impact. Most engineers don't have any real world experience, just experience with drawing on paper (now computers).
 
So everything can "talk" for emissions, traction control when it cuts back the throttle, etc. They are designed for drivers with no driving skills to keep their death toll at a lower rate than it would be without that sh-tuff.
 
Putting the tank inside the frame is almost as bad. When the U joints go out on the drive shaft its flops around and rips open the gas tank - along with providing plenty of sparks while it slaps on the pavement. Saw a prison van that had the driveshaft fail that way at highway speeds - burned all the inmates to death in a few minutes.
 
re: driverless cars:

almost every day me and a couple of guys here at work (all engineers) come up with a "what if" or "how will this work" scenario for autonomous vehicles. We're primarily a software company and it scares me that guys like the ones that work here are going to be in control of a vehicle flying down the road. It's kind of like finding the "maximum integer". If someone says "this is it", just add "one" and prove him wrong. If someone says "we've accounted for ALL the variables in autonomous cars", just say "what about this ...." :lol:
 
It bugs me too, and I'm an EE. Note that your brakes are fully mechanical in operation, but vacuum assisted. Steering is fully mechanical but pump assisted. If the brakes, and steering are so critical that they have to stay mechanical, why is the throttle allowed to be electronic?

And - in the event of a failure of the drive-by-wire electronics, why shut off the engine? Just set it to idle position. Or - possibly the designers of the circuit don't trust that circuit to reliable determine throttle inputs and outputs? hmmmm

Don't get me started on all the issues with the modern avionics systems. Gulp...
 

The h2 system is a bit different than mechanical with vacuum assist. It's hydraulic. The only reason I know that is because i had a leaky pump that was covered by warranty and had it replaced.

I've turned truck wheels before with normal power steering and it's not fun, but do-able. This one I could not move at all.

Steeringsys.gif
 
(quoted from post at 12:50:00 09/22/17) I believe that is a GM throttle system. Same as Tahoe and suburban, Have heard of people with same problem.
Click to expand...

I was just going to post that the Hummer is based on a GM truck platform and there is likely the same problem with the "civilian" version of that platform (but got beat to it). Seems like a not good design for sure, no matter where it came from.
 
It most certainly would move, you were just
in panic mode. Hydroboost brakes tied to
power steering has been around for over 50
years. Same system used on every HD GM pick
up for years. I run a shop in farm country
and those pumps shear the shaft all the
time. Those trucks have all been driven in,
never had one towed. They ain't fun, but
they are still driveable. Problem is people
panic and don't think through a situation, a
la Toyota runaway scare from a few years
back. The drive by wire system GM uses on
theit trucks of that vintage has been
reliable.
 
Campaign 11273B

"Dear General Motors Customer:
As the owner of a 2008, 2009, or 2010 GM vehicle, your satisfaction with our product is very important to us.
This letter is intended to make you aware that some 2008-2009 Chevrolet TrailBlazer; GMC Envoy; HUMMER H2; 2008-2010 Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV, Escalade EXT; Chevrolet Avalanche, Express, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe; GMC Savana, Sierra, Yukon, Yukon XL; HUMMER H3; 2009-2010 Chevrolet Colorado; GMC Canyon; and HUMMER H3T vehicles, equipped with a V8 engine, may have a condition where the throttle position sensor may cause the engine to run rough and cause the malfunction indicator lamp and/or an Engine Reduced Power message to illuminate. If this occurs, it could result in reduced engine power.... "

You would have gotten this letter from GM. the throttle position sensor appears to not be a user serviceable part from GM, as it seems they are replacing the whole throttle body asm. However, the TPS is avail on rockauto.com. If one wanted to start with that, cost about $30 plus shipping, looks like about 40 minutes to swap.
 
I had this happen to me the other day in my 2005 Silverado. Nearly got stuck on a bridge over the Mississippi, but ducked down an exit and rolled in to a parking lot. Mine was still running but would idle only. The mechanic said deposits in the throttle body had hung up the butterfly, and what happens is the ECM sees the throttle position is not "jiving" with the pedal position and the puts the engine in "limp mode"...
I was cussing this setup myself until I thought back to my 67 Chevelle. What they had a habit of doing was busting the driver side motor mount when you wailed on it...and the way the mount was made, it let the engine "hinge" up from the torque. This would pull the solid throttle ROD and the throttle wide open. Kind of a safety issue and something that makes you think real quick. I think there was a recall, but evidently my PO didn't take it in.
 
I remember I had a 1965 Rambler wagon and when the throttle spring broke the throttle went wide open. My young sister and a new driver was driving it when it happened on a real curvy and narrow country road. She was afraid to shut it down for fear she couldn't steer or stop and she took quite a ride before she got it slowed down enough to turn onto another road and then she shut it off.
 
I've been wondering how the driverless cars will handle the snow and ice. It took me a long time to try the cruise control, because I had seen several cars leave the road, wipe out in the median, and never see a brake light. The driver(?) will be too busy playing with his phone to take control.
 
"what about the Ford pinto with the rupturing gas tank in a rear end collision? Or the old mustang that had the drop in gas tank? The company knew of these defects and chose to pay for any law suits as it would be cheaper than correcting the problem. Boardrooms only see dollars and cents and not the human misery and death caused by the usage of their products."

Don't forget about the "speer-o-matic steering column" in the mustangs! In the '65-'66 and some '67 models, the steering shaft is straight into the steering box. No rag joint to snap off in a front end collision. this resulted in people being speared on the shaft and deaths occurred before Ford decided to add the rag joint. I have a '66 mustang and have added many safety features such as three point seat belts and high back seats. I am going to swap out the steering shaft for a rag joint one of these days.
 
I am amazed at what you can get out of that little engine. Course when you read the specs and the air flow systems that GM finally decided to put in their propulsion units, it's no wonder. I think they copied Dodge trucks (like I had in the past) on figuring out that an engine is nothing more than an air pump. If you want it to run you need to get air to it and air out of it.....open up the inlet and the outlet besides flow improvements within the engine. Do that and run baby run.
 
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