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Lock tight, or grease ?

Bruce from Can.

Bruce from Can.

Well-known Member
Location
Woodville, Ontario, Canada
The bolts that hold the sub frame on one of my loader tractors are backing out. So I turned one out , with my fingers , and much to my surprise , found the bolt covered with grease. I have less than a 1000 hrs on this tractor. I called the dealer and asked them , what the heck is going on here. Never heard of sub frames coming off tractors before. And why do they grease the bolts, instead of putting on some thing that might prevent the bolts from coming out? They told me that they would come out , remove the bolts, clean them, clean the grease out of the bolt holes with brake cleaner. Then replace the bolts with some lock tight on them , and torque them down. Sounds good. What has your exprence been with this kind of thing? Anyone have a loader sub frame coming off before? I realize that the sub frame would have to be able to be removed if the tractor needed to be split , but we can't have the loader coming off because the bolts fell out . Bruce
 
I suspect someone got in a hurry and the bolts were not tight to start with.

Might want to check the physical condition of the tech they send out. If the tech is frail or looks wormy, you may want to supply the final umph to the bolts yourself.
 
Never had an issue with them coming loose if they are properly tightened. I would hate to be the guy that needs to take it off if you loctite them. If it has started to move around and damaged the mating surfaces loctite won't help much anyway.
 
If there is grease in the threads, it will have to be thoroughly cleaned before Lock Tite will work. That's hard to do up inside a hole.

Possibly the bolts were never fully tightened. Also if there was heavy paint between the mating surfaces, or the surfaces were not machined, as in rough cast, or hot roll steel finish, the bolts would loosen as the surfaces worked and moved. If the surfaces have worn badly from running loose it will be difficult to keep the bolts tight unless the surfaces are remachined.

I think I would go to each bolt, remove and inspect, go back with grade 5 or 8.8 if metric, add hard lock washers, tighten them to torque spec, and keep a close watch on them.
 
I would clean real well and use blue Loctite if the bolt is 3/4 (19mm) or smaller,for larger use red. If the bolts are not steel( zink or black oxide) use a primer (7649). The newer Loctite with number ending in 3 have primer built in.
 
Probably antiseize compound, possibly they had problems with galling, also some lubricant helps bolts torque down better due to decreased friction, and obviously easier to disassemble later if need be if not rusted together
 
I think someone flubbed up when the loader was installed. All we did when installing a new loader on a tractor was to run a thread chaser into the mounting holes and then install bolts and torque them down with a big wrench.
Your question brought to mind a young fellow who worked for us one summer. He was quickly given the name "Never Seize" He thought it should be used on everything, and he got it on everything from his cloths to steering wheels. He was a walking mess. He didn't last in out shop long.
Loren
 
I agree with the other fellows on the blue locktite, if you need to take it apart they can be heated, and the loctite will prevent corrosion. My philosophy used to be, if you want to take it apart often, use anti-seize, if you want it to stay together use loctite!
 
I'll say it again to be clear, for that type assy. if it won't stay tight by just getting the bolts tight you have an issue not related to the bolts and loctite won't likely help. Start by looking at the mating surfaces to make sure they are flat and mate well. For that type assy the majority of the strength comes from the friction between the surfaces and if they don't mate well the bolts are required to do that work and they won't usually hold up. If they mate well it is likely that the bolts were not tote to start with.
 
Lubricated bolts will tighten better than dry ones, but do you suppose there was too much grease in the holes, causing hydraulic lock, so that the bolts were never as tight as they should be?

Lycoming had that issue with one critical internal engine bolt when management filled in for striking assembly workers.

I'd clean them up and use red thread locker on them. Starting fluid also works well as a degreaser.
 
Hey there Eric, I resent that that remark. To most I would be considered thin, but back in the day I had plenty of arm strength. It was more in how the guys that run the first shop I worked in right out of high school trained me. "If any blankety-blank job comes back because something is loose, you and your tool box take a hike" Never had to take a hike. Even "a bubba" has to engage his brain to make sure a job is done right!
 
Was all the paint removed from the mating surfaces before it was bolted on? I have had trouble with bolts working loose if the paint isn't removed down to shiny metal where the pieces touch together. Didn't make any difference how tight the bolts were.
 
I have mounted more than a few loaders and the instructions always had us remove ALL the paint from the mating surfaces, then install the hardware and torque it correctly. Over tightening a fastener is as bad as under torquing.
 
Bruce that topic has been covered several time at KUBOTA service schools. AT one time KUBOTA procedure was light oil on all the bolts there at the mounting pad. Now here is where it gets tricky. Screw all in till they are SEMI TIGHT start the tractor and put DOWNWARD pressure on the loader then torque the mounting bolts. The thought there was all bolts should have an even load. Early 9000s did have a problem with loader mounting pads and they went from 4 bolts to a side pad to 6 on each pads with a brace to the back. In mid 90 we were selling over 400 loader tractors a year and mounting was one thing that really had to be watched. I never did go to locktight and really had very few come back. We did always go back and retourke when the tractor came back for the first service.
 

I don't recall ever having bolts back out. It has appeared to me that at some dealers this type of work is likely to be given to the tech who is "lowest on the pole", and he may not have had adequate training. I would be concerned about the condition of the threads with them being so loose, and that so many were loose. I would insist on a very good cleaning, with hot water, plenty of aggressive cleaner and plenty of pressure, before the Brake Clean.
 
I wouldn't put grease on those bolts, but have put fluid film on them before. It's common enough for loader frame bolts to work loose. If it was 2 flat surfaces bolted together, the paint HAS TO BE REMOVED. The work order should have that noted on it. If it doesn't, I would ask that the frames are removed and cleaned up. Depending on the touch up job after removing the paint, you may be able to see if the paint has been removed. Maybe Kubota doesn't do it, but I know Case IH Puma use what I'll call a taper lock system. There's 4 cones on the tractor sub frame, and the loader sub frame has 4 taper bored holes that match up. Less paint to clean, and a better mount in my opinion.
 
Red loctite will work fine. When I did undercarriage work, all bolts over half inch got a abundant coating of red loctite. Run the half inch and 5/8's bolts in with my half inch IR impact and they were done. Anything 5/8's and over got torqued with a 3/4" IR impact, pretty low skill stuff there, lower rollers, idlers, etc. Did hundreds of machines that way, numerous machines a few times. The same impacts that put those red loctite bolts in, would pull them out just fine if you tightened them right. One of those "feel" thinges.
 
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