On Made in America

Texasmark1

Well-known Member
Do any of you recall when your car/truck doors QUIT rattling for 15 minutes after you shut the doors and just sounded like THUNK? Do you remember when even a heater (1965 Ford 6 cyl, 3 on the tree, Red and White half ton for one) was an added accessory with today's all inclusive amenities standard equipment? Do you remember when the CEO of GM said that we'll build what we want and the (American) motoring public will just have to buy it as they have no choice? Clue, it was revealed in that article that his annual salary and perks were (only) $400k for a time line.

Fanfare da da..........incomes Toyota and Datsun......and now folks, lookie what's available at your GM dealer (and other big 3) today.

I really like old cars and especially the Chevrolet in the 1955-57 time line, and especially the hard tops with no posts on the doors and their gorgeous colors (turquoise and white favorite) with matching interiors including seat covers, and the 265 V8 with glass packs and 3 on the tree in 2nd gear winding out........goose bumps....... But when you shut the doors, all that gorgeous "stuff" just falls out on the ground. I had a '71 Chev. fake woodie that I even took the door trim off the inside and stuffed blocks of foam against the window mechanisms to stop the things from rattling.

How long did it take to get compact tractors with hydrostat trannys and steering and all the current goodies.......Sometimes you just have to have a little diversity to get things going.
 
I remember when in a pickup. You had three on the tree,oil,fuel,temp,amp gauges. Plus the big one in the middle. A radio and heater was an option. If you wanted AC. Open the vent doors and roll down the windows
 
You are limiting your comparison to GM cars as the only representatives of the American made cars and trucks. Not fair.
As I was growing up, my parents had a number of vintage cars as second cars for mother to use for daily chores. Among them:
1948 Chevrolet Fleetmaster
1955 Dodge Royal with 3-speed column shift and overdrive.
1955 Ford Crown Victoria convertible.
1951 Studebaker Champion.
1963 Buick LeSabre station wagon.

Of all of those cars, not a single one had rattling doors or windows. Each one was a solid, well built, and reliable car.
 
Changing market conditions, TX.

Yes, imports, especially Japanese imports, hastened the change but it would have happened regardless.

The so-called "low quality" of US (and other) automobiles in years past was a business decision rather than an inability to produce at the perceived high quality levels of the Japanese manufacturers.

I've studied the automotive industry extensively and could write a treatise on this subject but will spare you.

Japanese manufacturers, especially Kubota, have caused a similar paradigm shift in the tractor market.

Dean
 
Maybe maybe not. The thing that sticks in my craw is the management attitude. As I recall share holders vote in/approve of the CEO selection at the annual meeting, by proxy or in person.
 
Agreed, Jim.

The Japanese engineered and/or inspected our initial defects because they had no other choice. The US manufacturers relied upon their well established dealer network and the vehicle warranty to address initial defects.

Initial defects are only one aspect of quality but the one most noticeable to consumers.

Dean
 
I was a GM fan at the time even though I could only afford a '47 Chevy PU, with a well worn out hot water 6 at the time. Even today, in the movies of the day, when somebody gets out of a car and shuts the door, regardless of the make, I listen to see if it was a rattler, obviously all didn't rattle. Will give you that standard sedans, with the fully contained window frames did rattle less with the window up. My rub is what I said about the particular models of which I had an association.
 
On that I read somewhere (forget where but makes sense) that GM to name one's management strategy, was to get the vehicle out the factory door. They relied on the dealers to clean up after them.

My current bus is a 2011 Silverado and reason is that a Chevy dealer is the closest auto dealer to my farm which was the purchasing criteria. Years ago his service bay was always full and had a waiting list. Today, if you find 2 vehicles in there you're lucky and he is running probably twice the volume of sales.
 
The manufacturing companies do not produce anything to be the BEST it could be anymore. Truthfully they never did. It all is designed to meet a price set point. IF the cost to manufacture a higher quality item is too high then the product quality goes down until there is a balance between cost and quality.

The vast majority of "BUYERS" today price shop only too much. There are few that will look at the "total value" of better quality items. So even if a company made the highest quality item they would be hard pressed to be successful because not many would buy it when it was placed next to a lower quality item that was cheaper. The expectations of today's consumers are geared towards price only.

Look at the discussions on here about Harbor Freight tools. There is a price verses quality decision made by the tool user when buying these items. I have both high and low quality items in my shop.
 
Interestingly, Japanese companies credit much of their success to work done by American management consultant W. Edwards Deming. By the 1980s, when US maufacturers finally started to listen to Demings' theories, the Japanese were dominating the US market with quality, reasonably-priced products.
Deming
 
Had a 55 Chev. that was a few years old when got it and felt like it was a real solid car. Few years later my sister buys a 57 Chev. and to me it just sounded like it was not as solid of a car all the way around. Loved the looks of them though.
 
My father-in-law was an automotive engineer at Ford back when Datsuns and Toyotas were making fools out of US designs and levels of "poor quality controls."
He says Ford was buying foreign cars, taking them apart, and trying to figure out how the Japanese could make such reliable cars and trucks and yet - not in a typical American "heavy duty" way. He was involved in many in-house Ford programs that attempted to copy the Japanese. In a nutshell - we won the war. The Japanese then copied proven existing designs from all over the world, improved them, and built great cars and trucks. They did not try to "reinvent the wheel." Years later - US auto makers started copying the Japanese.

On a side-note - my father-in-law also told me he was involved in taking apart a Ferrari that Ford bought. He says it was very crude and he was amazed at the poor quality and awful welds.

After World War II, the USA also seized the assets of Stihl chainsaws in Germany since Andreas Stihl was a Hitler supporter. Stihl chainsaw designs were given to USA saw makers and look what happened? Stihl of West Germany still prevailed in the end. Same with Bosch - another Hitler supporter. We seized the assets and created Bosch in the USA (AMBAC). Look now who is still in business?
 
Now you got me wondering on the ones i remember the dimmer was way down on the left. You had to be careful on rusty ones you didnt put it through the floor. Were there ones on the hump?
 
(quoted from post at 07:10:40 01/15/17) How long did it take to get compact tractors with hydrostat trannys and steering and all the current goodies.......Sometimes you just have to have a little diversity to get things going.

Not sure but I think that Kubota was just expanding their markets. They didn't build those compacts as we call them for the US market at first. They built them for the Asian market were a BTO could afford and use one. At the time the little guys were still literally using water buffalos. Heck when I got to Korea in 1980 you still saw farmers using water bufs. BTO's had 2 wheel walk behind tractors. At the time Japan was the only country in that region that had the manufacturing to build something like that. That whole region had been badly damaged from WWII and then a few years later the Chinese civil war that lead to it becoming Red China followed by the Korean War. When Kubota first entered the US market sometime in the 70's (saw the fist dealer here in 78 when I got back from Germany) the only competition was the garden tractors that were on the market. But real garden tractors were on the way out by then as fewer people were raising a garden and didn't need or want a machine capable of pulling a plow. They wanted something to mow lawn and blow snow. For the folks that wanted something to do more the Compacts time had come. Real garden tractors were still produced for a number of years after Kubota entered the US market but their days were numbered.

As far as US manufacturers are concerned: The big 3 figured out that if you bought a new car, and at the time the average buying traded every 2 years, all that car had to provide was 2 years reliable transportation. You then have a car that's basically junk and even used buyers would be forced into the new car market. They are/were after all in the business of selling NEW cars. And heaters and such became standard equipment long before Japanese cars got to be popular here. Plus add in, after the Great Depression and WWII was over people had more money to spend. They bought cars. They drove to work rather than use public transportation. They were spending more time in their cars. Little Johnny grew up riding in the back seat. Then when he was old enough he knew he didn't like being cold and not having music. So buyer demand changed. The car companies responded. Got to the point that most people wanted a heater so a heater became standard equipment. Some time later a radio. Some time later all the rest became standard.

As far as a CEO being voted on. Most investors even back then were concerned that their stocks were at least holding value in not gaining and that they got a dividend checks. So if the check was on time and the stocks holding the value why vote out the guy who so far has been making that happen?

Trying to put things in perspective, when the CEO of GM was making 400K a year minimum wage was less than 2 bucks an hour. In 1965 it was 1.25. or about 2600 a year. So 400K was huge!

Rick
 
"On that I read somewhere (forget where but makes sense) that GM to name one's management strategy, was to get the vehicle out the factory door. They relied on the dealers to clean up after them."

Bingo, TX.

For decades all manufacturers did.

Business decision.

The Japanese could not do this so they changed the paradigm.

Dean
 
I used to be a Country Western fan, but not as much today. Alan Jackson had a song long ago that reminded me of this. I envision a kid trying to run through a three on the tree 1/2 ton Ford, or through the gears in a Jeep as its fishtailing around. Thanks for the memories.

Quickly as a kid born in 1960, I used to go with my father some Saturdays over to my mothers parents in South Bend. My grandfather was a huge Cubs fan. Once he was sitting back on a sofa in the parlor all alone, eyes closed, listening to the game on the AM radio instead of watching it on his huge black and white console TV. Being a kid, "Grampa what are you doing?". He replied with a smile on his face, "Watching the ball game". I learned from him that some of the BEST Black Hawk hockey games I've ever watched have been with my eyes closed, leaning back and listening to the game on AM radio. As a matter of fact, when I do watch a game on the TV, the sound is turned down and the AM radio turned way up. That way I can go anywhere in the house and watch the game.

Mark
Alan Jackson.........close your eyes and watch
 
I think a lot of American made cars and trucks with the starter button on the floor had it positioned near the gas pedal. That way the operator could "sort of" work both at the same time using his right foot with a little bit of practice. I had a '51 Dodge pickup that I think was that way.
 
Best I recall the switch was to the right of the gas pedal. The dimmer switch was to the left by the door. On a 1954 chevy pickup. I remember holding down the gas pedal while pushing the switch. I remember being with my dad one night working on a tractor. He put the truck so the lights would shine on the tractor. Had me sit in the drivers seat to keep the truck running. I got to playing with the dimmer switch. Door flies open and dad was standing there. Told me if I hit that switch one more time. He was gonna whip my butt clear back to the house.
 
It varied a bit by manufacturer, but, generally, the dimmer switch was to the left near the kick panel. Starter button placement varied considerably depending upon the design of the starting system.

My first car was a 1947 Pontiac. The starter had no solenoid so substantial force was necessary to reliably close the starting contacts. The starter was a foot plunger type switch just above and to the right (?) of the accelerator pedal allowing one to push the starter and the accelerator at the same time. With a little practice, one could hold the starter pedal down while pumping the accelerator pedal to operate the accelerator pump in the carburetor.

My father had a 51 Buick that had the start switch beneath the accelerator pedal. Turning the ignition switch to Start and flooring the pedal would energize the starter. Of course, one needed to turn the ignition switch to Run after starting or flooring the accelerator pedal would again energize the starter.

Introduction of the so-called solenoid, eliminated the need for these high force switches allowing the use of a small start switch to be placed on the dash and later incorporated into the ignition switch.

Dean
 
Speaking of salaries, back in the 1970's a fellow by the name of Robert Townsend took Avis out of their financial doldrums and put them second to Hertz in the car rental business.

When he became President of Avis, he set his own salary at $30,000 per year, a modest, yet substantial, sum at the time. The Board of Directors told him it wasn't enough, he should pay himself at least $50,000.

Townsend's response was, "Right now you can't afford to pay me $50,000. When I get this company turned around and profitable, we'll talk about a pay raise".

When was the last time you saw that level of honesty and integrity among company presidents and CEO's? A CEO's primary objective is to maximize dividends for the stockholders, so isn't paying himself an exorbitant salary depriving stockholders of dividends?
 
Just a small comment on declining quality: I have a '55 Chevy two-door sedan, two '56 Chevy two-door sedans, a '57 Chevy two-door hardtop and a '58 Chevy two-door sedan. It's sadly interesting to look at interior parts on these cars over that four-year span and see how things went from metal to plastic and otherwise became cheaper in such a brief time.
 
I got a '57 Chevy pickup, It rattles about the same as my '96 dodge truck or 2004 Chevy pickup, all have about 200,000 miles. I had a '57 Hardtop back in the '80's and it was a pretty good car except for the front drum brakes and lack of power steering. My momma has a 2003 chevy suburban with a lot of miles and still a good nice driving car.
 
(quoted from post at 09:33:03 01/15/17) Speaking of salaries, back in the 1970's a fellow by the name of Robert Townsend took Avis out of their financial doldrums and put them second to Hertz in the car rental business.

When he became President of Avis, he set his own salary at $30,000 per year, a modest, yet substantial, sum at the time. The Board of Directors told him it wasn't enough, he should pay himself at least $50,000.

Townsend's response was, "Right now you can't afford to pay me $50,000. When I get this company turned around and profitable, we'll talk about a pay raise".

When was the last time you saw that level of honesty and integrity among company presidents and CEO's? A CEO's primary objective is to maximize dividends for the stockholders, so isn't paying himself an exorbitant salary depriving stockholders of dividends?

Goose, things have changed. I watched an interview with a CEO a few years ago and the reporter ask the CEO if anyone with an MBA could become a CEO. The reply was no. New hires starting out a the bottom had a good chance of making mid level management but less that 1 in 1000 would make upper level and fewer yet could become a CEO. Way back when CEO's we taking way less money if the company they ran had a bad year they could go elsewhere and get a job. Today no one will touch them. Basically today if a CEO is at the helm when a company tanks they will be lucky to get a job running a fast food joint.

Rick
 
GM mounted the starting solenoid on top of the starter. Hence the convenience of making the function mechanical using toe pressure and in the day since you usually had to have the accelerator depressed or depress it up and down to keep the thing running once it lit off, that was a convenient place for the driver.

Ford mounted their solenoid usually on the firewall or somewhere under the hood on sheet metal and had a push button and an electrical on/off switch. For the longest time you had to open your door with your key in your right hand, left hand pushing the button and pulling on the thing and once inside, you had to switch hands and put the key in on the left side (mom's '51 custom 2 door sedan) of the dash where GM had the key on the right.

Then I remember Ford had it on the tree.....grandpaw's '40 Coupe, in Black of course.....Henry's motto: "You can have any color car you want (back in the day of the T and A) as long as it's black".
 
We had a lengthy course on Quality by Juran at work. Apparently part of McArthur's effort to get that country back up and running included making quality products. So he was tasked to improve their quality, and rightly did. I recall early Japanese products, a pipe wrench immediately comes to mind, sorely lacking. He obviously taught them a thing or two.

One of his ideas which makes a ton of sense is pass-fail criteria. He said if your pass fail criteria was 95%, which in itself is a pretty good grade of A normally, what you are doing he says, is creating a 5% of your gross income valued JUNK FACTORY. You deliberately feed raw materials and effort and all into building junk. Really makes you stop and think about your business objectives.
 
Late Model T's and ALL Model A's were available from the factory in many colors and color combos. Model A's were available in all black from the factory by special order only.
 
Basically today if a CEO is at the helm when a company tanks they will be lucky to get a job running a fast food joint.

Rick

Not in the country where I live. Here a CEO of a failed company is given a raise by his next company for all the skills he acquired tanking the first company.
 
(quoted from post at 08:16:18 01/15/17) The manufacturing companies do not produce anything to be the BEST it could be anymore. Truthfully they never did. It all is designed to meet a price set point.

I have to disagree somewhat. I justify the reason we like old tractors is this: In the teens and before the emphasis was on making a practical engine. In the twenties it was making a practical engine/tractor combination. In the thirties the emphasis was on reliability, trying to outlast the competition. That's why two cylinder JD's, letter series Farmalls, Case, Allis and the other guys made such good tractors. They engineers designing these tractors were the same generation that produced the B-17 and Duesenberg. In the forties the emphasis was on production after the war, then in the fifties and later it was more HP and cheaper. In my opinion.
 
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One of the worst I ran into was a Ford Maverick in 1970. My buddy was a mechanic at the local Ford dealer back then and he showed me one that had just came from the factory. It had the 200 CID six and two spark plugs were hanging from their plug wires . He told me the spark plug holes in the head had not been tapped and were just a blank hole with no threads. The car was parked outside until a new cylinder head arrived from parts. The JD plant I worked in at that time had the same philosophy of getting product out the door. I remember a log skidder with sloppy splines on the axles and they told me the dealer would take care of it. He didn't and a few months later it came back to the dealer under warranty to replace the wheel hubs. Very bad business practices.
 
(quoted from post at 10:45:39 01/15/17) .....[b:c10a7966de]They relied on the dealers to clean up after them. [/b:c10a7966de]

Funny story about that. I bought a fully loaded, gray, Olds Toronado with Burgundy leather interior in 1979 or 1980. At the time, I worked for GM and got a new car every year on the A Plan, always fully loaded. I drove them for a year and could sell them for a profit.

When that particular car arrived, I went to the dealer to pick it up. I opened the car door with the sales guy and said "do you see a problem here?" The front seats were Burgundy leather as ordered, the rear seat was Burgundy cloth. :roll: Nobody at the dealer noticed it. :shock:

They had to order the seats as a "part" under warranty. The dealer said it cost over $1500. How many people at the factory got in that car after the seats were installed, do you think?
 
My dad hauled cars out of Lansing during that time period, occasionally he'd bid to work the hole, or pulling the cars off the pad at the plant, receiving them and putting them on another pad for shuttle
drivers to pick them up. In this era he got a handheld computer to track the discrepancies. A few things about your mis-matched back seat, if Olds was down on production they would of shipped it to meet the
quota, if Olds final assembly inspection caught the problem they still may of been ordered to ship it as it was a Fischer body problem or they would of tried to pawn the warranty cost off to the trucking
company as shipment damage. Dad told us about one claim they had when someone at Fischer used 4" screws on the dome light, the went through the bracket, and the roof and the vinyl top and GM tried to get the
trucking company to pay for it as it wasn't annotated on the receiving bill. The two things any successful manger at GM assembly learned was to make production (or at least make it look like you did) and to
blame someone else for any problem. This may of been some of the reasons GM as fallen from where they were to were they are now.
 

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