Lets talk next generation diesel

David G

Well-known Member
I believe there are two emission issues with Diesels.

Particulates, that is now handled with DPF, which is PIA to me. I do not think a Diesel should smoke if you can keep the A/F ratio correct. It seems like the worst problem would be during acceleration before the turbo starts working. I can tell that my 2016 6.7l regens a lot less than my 2011 did, so will assume it produces less particulates. I can also tell a decrease in acceleration from my 2011, so would assume that they are not opening up the injectors as fast so the turbo can catch up a little.

I am seeing new active turbo technology that has combustion in the turbo to spin it up when the engine is not producing hot gasses, that is like having a blower along with the turbo. We use compressed air to spin turbo's up on the big compression engines so they can get enough air. Maybe a high pressure air tank could function like an accelerator pump on a carbureted gas engine to give it the needed shot. The tank could be refilled over a longer time once the engine catches up.

NOx, is now handled with EGR and SCR, I really doubt that will change to much, hope it goes more SCR and less EGR so economy comes up.

Maybe we can hold the standards where they are and reduce the troublesome pieces with new technology.

Comments invited.
 
Honestly, most of DEF problems have been ironed out, so those systems work better than they did. The DEF and DPF are able to adapt to vehicle and driver styles also. At least one manufacturer is looking to eliminate EGR and rely on DEF and DPF only. EGR is the main maintence issue with diesels, especially in farm country where the trucks idle a lot. All of this is moot if the new admin doesn't reign in the EPA. The EPA's current agenda is the removal of diesel engines entirely.
 
There are a lot of smart people out there and the solution may already be made. Do the systems that use a smaller turbo to spool up the larger one have any merit?
 

I stay confused...

Now they complain about some extremely fine particles put out by the newer engines.. that are worse than the large particles they used to put out.

And the calif study done, shows now that on weekends when there are less big diesels on the road, the smog is worse than on weekdays.

Results of the study shows via the air sensors and measurements...... that a lot of nox is bad and causes smog.. BUT... too little nox is bad and causes smog. And that during weekdays, the amount of nox is closer to providing the correct amount for good air with certain reactions caused by the nox with other components.

I had a reference to the study but cant find it at the moment. But it does make you wonder where we need to go.



NOW.. tell me... whos on first????
 
The county I work for just got a New 12M3 Cat Road Grader, This is the first one we have that has DEF. The others have DPF and regen but don't run DEF. We had a Cat technician put on a school for us on the new procedures for these engines. Such as when you shut off the key it may take 5 minutes before the computer decides to shut of the engine and purge the DEF. If you override it and do the emergency shut down the machine calls Cat. If you do this shutdown more than once we were warned that we better have proof of an emergency because Cat will void the warranty over multiple bypass shutdowns. Now the most interesting thing He shared with us is according to Cats testing, in places like California these engines are actually exhausting cleaner air than they ingest. The engines are cleaning the air!
 
We have DEF on our NewHolland tractor the only complaint I have about it is the exhaust stinks lol
 
Egr was first,to lower nox,then dpf with egr,then dpf with egr with def(scr-supplemental catylist reduction).The dpf only system removed 'smoke' particles-you have a soot free exhaust pipe.To keep nox (nitrous oxides) down,along with the egr, the fuel timing/amount made more smoke which is removed by the dpf.Then with def the fuel timing/amount is adjusted to make less smoke,but more nox which is removed by the def system,and dpf removes the smoke,which there is less of.So a def system will need to less regens.
As far as the turbo,when you have an egr you have a varible vane turbo.It has to react to the egr position,and keep the boost pressure steady by changing the vane position Simple.Easy peasy.And it all has to work perfect so the ecm does not derate the engine.It does that so you have to keep it working-you can't ignore the warning lights anymore.Mark
 
So, we need to elect nox producing substations strategically located, and turn them on bun some diesel, when needed to properly balance the
air?

Would be the logical solution to this dire and im image emergency?

Maybe it will happen faster if some young folk get together and burn some tires and a bridge, to show how important the nox substation
production network is for humanity.

Paul
 
just seen a article on the EPA is after dodge as it sounds like they were electronicaly fudging there exhaust readings on there diesel engine, probably the 3.0 moronie engine in the jeep. doent sound like there not going after them like vw, tho
 
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2016/5/13/The-New-Measure-Of-Performance-Hybrid-Turbochargers-7733414/

This is what I was discussing, my idea is that a Diesel should not produce any particulates if it gets enough air, looks like Europe is ahead of us.
 
David,
I read where in 2019-2020 world wide stage 5, our tier 5 standards are to be implemented. Exactly how is anyone's guess, but many tractors and engines are sold on the world markets, so engine makers will be compliant with EU stage 5 even if our country drags it feet for 4 years implementing tier 5.

From what I've read, stage5/tier5 standards will not exempt small engines under 25 hp. They will include ALL diesel engines. Be interesting to see with all the cheating scandals, if compact tractors give up on diesel and go with gas.

I wish people not living in US would comment how the scandal is being received in their country.
geo
 
I would actually be surprised that direct injection gas engines do not take over the small tractor market.
 
David,
My 4010 kaw mule is two cylinder fuel injection. I have 450 hours on it. Runs very clean, uses about 1 gallon of gas in two hours. Hard to believe diesel would be any cheaper to operate if you include all the filters, more expensive fuel, all the additives. I don't think I'll live long enough for the kawasaki engine to wear out. So you may be right about going with gas on small compact tractors. There are already many small gas injector engines to pick from. geo
 
(quoted from post at 10:04:47 01/13/17) I would actually be surprised that direct injection gas engines do not take over the small tractor market.

Careful when suggesting spark igniton engines, direct injection gasoline etc in small, medium, light and medium duty applications.
There will be a long line of irrate replys calling a heretic and unamerican . With multiple refernces back to 1970 where pappy's 4020 gas burned twice as many gallons per hour to do just half the work a diesel could do. Some people just can't understand a 2017 gas and 2017 diesel are different from a 1970 gas and 1970 diesel.
Then some twit who has no idea what light, medium and heavy duty service is. They will jump in and and ask if direct injection gas is so good why are there not 300HP farm tractors and 550HP highway tractors.
 
I would not suggest that for large HP, but would believe it good for small utility tractors that do not get used a lot.
 
A lot of emission problems with the diesel are we operators had manual control of the throttle. Many of us liked the feeling of being "in charge" of the vehicle's engine. Now, computerized fuel injection overrides the operator's input and no black smoke during speed changes. It took a few years to get over the fact that the engine would not "bark" when we mashed the gas. This dog doesn't hunt.

The piston engine tends to have a low emissions, high efficiency "sweet spot" for each power output ask for. For vehicles, the throttle is likely to disappear. Many of us old geezers will not be happy with how fast, how slow, or how much lug the engine is operating under. I drove a modern semi truck for a few years. I had become comfortable with big diesels running around 2000 rpm. I thought that lugging under 1800 was "hard on the engine" so that was my down-shift point. Same with my farm tractors.

The last big truck I drove was "computerized". About 1400 rpm max at full power and lugged down to about 1000 before computerized down-shifting--GOOD GRIEF!!!!! My perception was the engine was being SEVERLY abused.

Some of the other older drivers had the same perception. My guess is many younger driver have no concept of the inner working of an engine and sevear lug is just louder noise. That is okay. I have little concept of how the innards of this computer in front of me work and that is also okays.

The engine is becoming totally integrated with the vehicle. The start switch use to start only the engine. I think soon "saying start" will energize the entire vehicle for operation and computers will run the engine at its "sweet spot". Engines are being shut off at stop lights and then can instantly crank and go to max power when the light turns green--and shut off at the next stop light-- GOOD GRIEF--what became of warm up and cool down periods? You can tell I am old when I use the word crank to start an engine.

I was blown away one time on a 35 degree morning watching when an older diesel farm tractor (not mine) had sat in the field over night hooked to a tandem disk left lowered in the ground. Two hired men were trying to get the tractor started. One sat on the tractor with it in gear --the clutch pushed in and the throttle at max--it would not start. The second person came and gave it a shot of ether. The engine fired--went quickly to high idle-the ether man quickly stepped back--the clutch was "popped" and away went the Allis Chalmers. SAD!!!!!

During my career working for Cat,I witnessed a lot of idiot operators running machinery. One of our challenges was how to make vehicles "idiot proof".

Beware when you ask for comments. Running off at the mouth has also become running off at the keyboard. Maybe this forum was not intended to replace the fireside chat. LOL
 
You hit on something that bugs the snot out of me on my new truck, mashing the pedal does nothing more than slowly pressing it. I am assuming that this is done to prevent smoke/soot. The exhaust on my truck smells like an LP engine, I can sit on the ground next to it when running.

Are we just wanting a race truck?
 
(quoted from post at 09:14:56 01/13/17) David,
My 4010 kaw mule is two cylinder fuel injection. I have 450 hours on it. Runs very clean, uses about 1 gallon of gas in two hours. Hard to believe diesel would be any cheaper to operate if you include all the filters, more expensive fuel, all the additives. I don't think I'll live long enough for the kawasaki engine to wear out. So you may be right about going with gas on small compact tractors. There are already many small gas injector engines to pick from. geo
our kaw mules, the diesel will do at least 25% more on the same fuel.. I suspect they run longer too, but I cant prove that as I have sold off all my gas versions. Still have one at the third place, but its a carb version, and very probamatic due to carb slime and external_link gas.. Cant get my inlaw to sell it, but he uses my diesel parked next to it, as it always runs, and the tank is never empty.
 
I think there might be a few details missing. More NOx is not a good thing. Old engines put out small and large particles just the larger ones are easier to clean up.
 
I agree with the NOx issues.

My point is that I do not believe a Diesel needs to make any particulates if the air to fuel ratio is managed correctly.
 
Diesels will always smoke to a degree with current technology. Diesels always burn both rich and lean at the same time because they have diffusion burning not pre-mixed. The cooler fuel that is farther from the diffusion front and towards the end of the cycle is rich and has less dwell time to break down. Some of this stays as longer carbon chains of "stuff" and leaves the exhaust uncombusted. This is a waste of fuel - bad for your wallet and bad for the environment/your lungs.

As you increase the hp output per cubic inch on a diesel (i.e. the amount of fuel your are trying to burn in that space in a given time) the efficiency falls off pretty quick with more fuel heading out the exhaust and more heat into the cylinder walls. It actually falls down to near the efficiency of gas engines at high loads.
 

Part load gasser efficiency is higher than part load diesel efficiency. Hence the popularity of spark ignition forklifts , manlifts, generator sets etc.
 
Ban those stinking diesels...
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David, Your terminology "bug the snot out of me" says a lot. You no doubt realize that what we use to call the "gas pedal" is actually a
speed request pedal. It is connected to a computer and the computer has a procedure to do what is requested--either more speed or less speed.

For speed decrease requests, safety is the main concern. Fortunately, safety and low emissions go hand in hand so the fuel rate can be reduced immediately. For speed increase requests, emissions override our desire for the engine to bark.

I had to get use to the delay in the start switch. When no immediate response happened, I would immediate release the key and begin looking for reasons---must be in gear etc. Try again--immediate release--keep looking for WHY? My experienced co-driver told me politely "just HOLD the key at start". Yes, this old dog did learn the new trick. sigh!!!!

Controlling emissions is easier if the diesel engine does not need to increase RPMs. Currently, transmissions cannot efficiently and smoothly manage our speed increase requests. Speed decrease requests could currently be handled by going to neutral and let the engine "continue to rev" and downshift to match. Unfortunately, doing this could have safety issues when some of us old dog drivers react by reaching down to pull back on the gas pedal.

As us old dogs loose our CDL for medical reasons (as I did), I predict there will be more "keeping the engine revved" and controlling speed requests with the transmission. For trucks, the engine will probably need to be kept near low idle speed only to get rolling--up to a MPH in low gear that matches the engine's rpm sweep spot. Beyond that mph, the engine is likely to be kept revved and the tranny shifted as needed to meet the speed request.

Of course, infinitely variable trannys in trucks, or powers shifts, are not yet as efficient as the computerized clash box. To keep the computerized clash box for fuel economy, the computer will have to decide the best COMPROMISE of gear ratio and engine speed to main specific speed requests to deal with traffic and other things.

Drivers and the pedestrians may have to get use to "racing truck engines" as they approach stop signs etc. Since pedestrians are voters, the Feds may allow computers to "predict city driving" and modify how truck engines are controlled during city driving. GPS locations (city limits) might give instructions/permissions to the computer to control the engine in a different manner.

Truck drivers may have to get use to the various "temper tantrums" of the beast they are driving. LOL.
 
An inherent efficiency disadvantage of engine with butterflies (gas engines) is they have to use fuel to power their built-in vacuum pump. No so with diesels.
 
The farts of 7 billion humans in the world produce many times the stink of tractor pulls. Of course, we only notice the concentration of stink at tractor pulls. Maybe we should ban farting--- or maybe our underwear and toilets should be equipped with exhaust gas scrubbers. LOL
 

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