EPA Attacks Fiat Chrysler

We will see if or how long the EPA exists going forward. If the EPA is allowed to continue, there will not be any cars on the road, no wood furnaces, no nothing.
 
How bad it can get is easily seen in Chinese pollution. Lets not go there. Regulation is desirable, it is up to the makers to do it correctly. Please look at "Chinese Pollution" The worst of LA pollution has ended due to the regulation. We live and breathe. Jim
 
I started in the environmental protection field in 1971 when the Houston Ship Channel would catch fire. Sure it is an industrial waterway but fire is not good. As with most things there is a desirable goal and reasonable measures to get there. Doesn't have to be all or nothing.
 
Even if EPA goes by by, other countries have their version, their greenies too. Cars today are sold all over the world and will still have to be environmentally compliant for foreign markets.
Be looking for stage 5 in foreign countries in 2019 or 2020.
 
Now that we are beyond the politics, lets talk NOx, it is very bad for the environment, causes acid rain.

I see DEF on the new engines, but also EGR; why can't the DEF be increased to handle the increased NOx, without violations or reduced performance due to EGR.

I hate EGR, never have seen sense in reducing efficiency.
 
Not sure how old you are, but in the '60's and '70's the car companies said the "smog laws"
would put them out of business. I worked for a car company and repeated that claim many times.

Now today, the cars run great, get double the mileage, and don't pollute.

I was wrong. And so were my bosses. Dirty air is every ones problem.
We do not want to be like Beijing.
 
67 and was a design engineer for GM for years, engine controllers among other things.

I do not recall hearing any US automobile manufacturer stating in the 60s or 70s that smog laws would put them out of business. Indeed such statement would have been irrational.

Dean
 
I heard it all the time, no one would be able to afford a car.

The environmental and mileage restrictions, best thing ever happened to cars.
 
It's good to make a smaller footprint; we keep having more feet making them so we do need to be mindful.

Seems the EPA and those few powerful lobbiests that are beyond EPA keep pushing for some strange stuff, while letting other things go.

Tier 3 on Diesel engines greatly harmed mileage.

Tier 4 on Diesel engines greatly harmed reliability, affordability, and safety in rough use.

We didn't gain monumental cleaner air.

Perhaps a more measured, thoughtful, slower pace on cleaning up emissions would give us equal or better long term solutions.

Is their a their 5 coming, does it ban Diesel engines entirely, or double their cost again to achieve .5% better emissions?

Cost vs reward, I think we need to catch our breath a bit? And yes L chose that phrase on purpose.

I don't want to ban EPA, I want it run responsibly.

Technology does some good things. Care run 200,000 miles these days, used to be exciting to see one make 100,000 and it was shooting blue smoke and had 10 tune ups by then, now the 200,000 might have had one tune up and isn't burning much oil. That's great.

High tech emissions packages, esp the new stuff on diesel, needs to catch up some tho. We need that breather..... The emissions have been cleaned some, there isn't much to gain.

paul
 
This is not a question of if you agree with an existing law. When one company "cheats" on a law to get a competitive advantage over their competitors that are following the law, they deserve punishment.
 
The environmental controls have allowed the engines to run several hundred thousand miles with very little trouble. The engines used to get so dirty inside due to all the unburned fuel that they were very short lived. Spark plugs would last a few thousand miles before they became lead fouled. I can remember choking in the city due to all the smog from engines idling. The cars rarely broke 20 mpg, now 30-40 is very common, due to the mileage restrictions.

I live rural, but travel to cities extensively, the impact of pollution is much more dramatic when there is a higher vehicle density, but the effects are global.
 
Well said, Paul.

Diminishing returns regarding automotive emissions was reached in the late 1970s - early 1980s, yet the EPA continues to issue draconian regulations that cost consumers enormously yet result in vanishingly small "improvements."

Mileage/reliability is an entirely different issue. Anyone who believes that, absent the EPA and similar government agencies, todays cars would not achieve higher MPG and equal or improved reliability at much lower costs and with only somewhat increased "pollution" simply does not understand free enterprise.

The EPA has grown into an enormous, seemingly uncontrollable, empire within the federal government that must continue to find "problems" to address in order to justify its existence. When was the last time anyone heard a government agency state that its mission had been accomplished and it was time to dissolve, or even downsize?

Dean
 
Improved MPG and reliability are different issues. Such improvements are market driven and would have occurred at considerably less cost without EPA regulations. Indeed, absent the draconian emissions regulations promulgated by the EPA, vehicles could achieve higher MGP at equal or improved reliability with today's technology.

Dean
 
The EPA is no different than any other government agency/program. They eventually get large enough to take on a life of their own and get out of control.
Greenies don't like diesels, no matter how clean they run. I believe one of the EPA's goals under this administration, is to regulate them so heavily that the cost to buy/own one would be prohibitive - just like they did with coal.
Hopefully they'll get reined in in the next four years (or de-funded)
Pete
 
Not true...

NOx was issue once compression came up due to overhead valves, the higher the compression the higher the NOx.

EGR was invented to combat this, later DEF.
 
If you have never had to deal with those nut cases first hand you have no idea what they are like . They have never FIXED a problem and caused more . Say you have a spill of a couple hundred gallons of diesel , Do they rush out to solve the problem , no they move the problem to another location and bury it in the ground . And Lord help ya if you are using the waters of the state and you throw your suction hose in a creek with a stone basket held on with cam loc fittings that you just put two DROPS of oil on and it causes a rainbow affect . YOUR GOING TO JAIL because you knowingly contaminated the waters of the state and if you just happen to be using a WATER TRUCK with the hoses attached to the truck they will claim your DUMPING hazmat into the Waters of the state . Don't ask how i know this.
 
Are you saying we need to switch back to the carburetors of the late 1970's & early 1980's? No thanks.
 
I spilled about a quart of diesel on top of a parking garage. While servicing a generator. Building manager flips out and calls the EPA rep for Dallas. I was called back to the job site the next morning. To explain myself to him. Got there and he started in with the EPA fine threats. So I got out my water detection paste. Checked every barrel.One had a little diesel film the other five were full of water.
I thought the clean up leader was going tho throw the guy off the roof. Because they had just spent the night in 30 degree weather cleaning up water.

The EPA is run by idiots.
 
Take it as it is, I believe the EPA should be expanded in some areas and reigned in others.

I would agree we are reaching the limits of clean engines, lets looks for better ways to meet existing standards.

I think that NG electric generation will reduce pollutants significantly, it is tough to burn coal cleanly.

I do think that we are horrible on controlling the amount of nutrients into our waterways, voluntary participation does not work in Iowa. This needs to be for both cities and farms. The ones that do it do it, and the ones that do not, will not without laws in place.

Our quickest way to reduce pollution is conserving fuels, foods and water.
 
No not many broke the 20 MPG back then , BUT we were not running lawn mower engines or pepsi bottle sized engines either , we were not driving a beer can on a rollerskate either , we drove cars that hd some size to them and room on the inside . They did not cost half your yearly wage and IF you tool care of your car engines they would last a lot more miles ,yes they needed plugs and points about every 10-12000 miles.and change the oil when it was recomened and the use of a good oil , back then people like always wanted the CHEAP STUFF . I personally put on 187+thousand miles on a 68 Plymouth Road runner and trust me i ran the bag off that car and it was NOT and oil burner and for it being a 383 four gear car . NO it did not get 20 MPG but it would do all most 19 on a trip even with the way i drove.
 
agree with you on that as no mfg ever paid a dime for the smog devices out of their pockets, they just added it on the cost of the unit and then some,, so you are so correct that it would not break them,,, and I always liked the term "smog pump" they are fresh air pumps that just dilute the air coming out the pipe they do very little control or clean up emissions,, even the convertors just change it to something they do not test for,,,
 
my father who passed in 76 had two sayings #1 they are educated beyond there intelligence #2 the inmates are running the asylum
 
Exactly my point. Should of never bailed out GM or Chrysler x 2
EPA will hit them with enough fines they will have to go bankrupt yet again.
 
(quoted from post at 14:02:14 01/12/17) The environmental controls have allowed the engines to [b:43da90a7b5]run several hundred thousand miles with very little trouble[/b:43da90a7b5]. The engines used to get so dirty inside due to all the unburned fuel that they were very short lived. Spark plugs would last a few thousand miles before they became lead fouled.[b:43da90a7b5] I can remember choking in the city due to all the smog from engines idling.[/b:43da90a7b5] The cars rarely broke 20 mpg, now 30-40 is very common, due to the mileage restrictions.

I live rural, but travel to cities extensively, the impact of pollution is much more dramatic when there is a higher vehicle density, but the effects are global.
I just bought an older Ford F150 5.4L that cannot make 150k w/o rebuilding the valvetrain. No one is saying go back to those days of smog filled cities. I'm with the crowd that says we've accomplished a lot and are at the point of diminishing returns, i.e at what cost to get a small (1%?) improvement? The EPA (and state agencies) have gone way overboard on many fronts that affect us all on a personal level. Wetlands, for example. I cut every cat-tail I see on my property lest some bureaucrat come by and restrict my usage of said property.

I'm looking forward to someone pulling the reins in on the Eco-Nazis.
 
The EPA was once a fine agency but its fastly getting out of control and letting the power go to its head...
 
Greenies do not like anything. Compressor engines running on Natural gas, mind you emissions from Natural Gas engines are about 97% water vapor, can not get much cleaner. They mandate and insist on installing catalytic exhaust on them to "clean up" the emissions. The engines do not run hot enough to get the Catalytic exhaust hot enough to "clean" the exhaust. Had to add electric heater elements in the exhaust to heat it up high enough to "burn" the exhaust to "clean" it up to their standards. About Half Million dollar upgrades to Systems that were only 3 years old at the time. They met standards when installed 3 years ago, so the EPA changes their "standards" and makes everyone upgrade which reduces reliability as they were not built to run under their mandates. And of course, who pays? The customers of course... The EPA needs to go.
 
It might have saved yourself and everyone else a lot of trouble if you had just cleaned up the spill and left everything the same as you found it?
 
Difference between the EPA and DEQ.
The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is a federal agency whose mission is to protect human health and the environment through regulation, research, and outreach related to pollutants in the environment.
The Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) is a state agency, not directly affiliated with the EPA, that answers to the Governor and Legislature of the State. DEQ develops and implements regulations and policies to meet Federal guidelines in response to direction from the Legislature and the Governor.
 
Then you were too far removed from the lobbying efforts of the big 3 in DC to hear the dire predictions.
We even sic'd the auto dealers on the state gov'ts to try to stop the federal smog regs.
Did the same with safety regs. Too expensive, will kill sales we said.

Yes, the customer pays for it, but manufacturers investment is up front.... and gigantic.

Safety regs now save 30,000 lives per year. Smog regs make cities livable.

I agree that regs can go too far, but this idea that America would be better off with no regulation, is naive.
 
Regardless of if you agree with the rules or not, faking your way past tests so you score better than your competitors isn't fair and needs to be punished if its true.
 
"...if its true."

Agreed.

Problem is that Fiat Chrysler is already being punished yet nothing has been proven.

Dean
 
Did not say that auto manufacturers did not advocate and lobby against emission and safety regulations, only that I do not recall any senior auto industry executives state that such would put them out of business.

It's the consumer that ultimately bears the cost burden.

Dean
 
Regarding the argument of lost mileage, loss of efficiency, and the other "ills" of pollution controlled engines, I say this:
Efficiency of combustion will result in improved fuel mileage as well as reduced emissions.
 
EPA stands for environmental ruin agency. Should be gotten rid of. Country would be better off.
 
(quoted from post at 13:12:09 01/12/17) Do not expect this to end here, folks.

Dean
Whos Next

This is simply pay back from the current administration for cooperating with the new administration by moving more production to the USA. The current EPA is a criminal enterprise and is about to be neutered!
 
No, that's not quite true. The greatest level of efficiency was achieved with Tier II engines. When the next generation of emissions controls was implemented, efficiency declined in the name of reducing Nox and particulate emissions. That's not an entirely bad goal, but the brute reality is that Tier III engines consumed more fuel that their predecessors. They have perhaps come to a point in tuning today that they have gotten that back, but at great sacrifice to engine durability. When you had a Tier II engine... they were the most durable, most efficient, and generally best performing seen to date. We have gone backwards in the last 15 years with the aim of achieving some rather questionable gains.

Rod
 

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