Battery life and does size really matter?

After shearing off two starter drives on Jubilee and two starter drives on Farmall C. I decided to get rid of the 6v starters and install 12v. Both tractors here converted to 12v before I purchased them. I couldn't find any heavier starter drives, so decided it's time to do something different because the last drive on Jubilee chipped tooth on starter ring.

It was easy to get a 12v starter for Jubilee from YT, none available for Farmall.

That's when I decided the size of battery matters. I found a lawn mower battery that had difficult starting 23 hp Briggs. I used a 230 cca battery that was measuring 180cca. Used 10g copper for cables. Hard to believe it workes just fine for the past 3 years, even in winter. The 12v mower battery spins engine just fine. No fear of shearing starter drive. Tractor has mag and it fired on first or second crank.

On another note, I'm convenienced drsulfating works. All my batteries get desulfate many times a year. The mower battery on Farmall was bought Feb 2001. IT measured 180 cha when installed. Yesterday it showed 210cca at 40 degrees. If that isn't proof a good charger that desulfate works, nothing will.

And the size of battery and cables in this case doesn't matter. Battery just had to be good enough to get the job done.

10 Gauge wire is way too small for battery cable on a jubilee. They're only rated for 30 amps. This is why 10 gauge wire is used on charging systems.
Everyone has been sold on CCA. Amp Hours aren't spoke of anymore but still apply. CCA is only a selling gimmick. I'm like many on here and like to know how long my battery will last in a vehicle when the charging system fails, better known as "AMP HOUR". The CCA gimmick has worked for over 30 years to help battery mfgs sell batteries. Now days that's all you hear from people after they buy a new battery is, "I got an 800 CCA Battery For My Car/Truck". The new cars and trucks don't need anywhere near that many amps to crank the engine over except some deisel engines maybe. The starters have become smaller and use permanent magnets for the field so no current is needed to feed the field windings any more like in older starters. That's why when your battery goes bad or dead in these new vehicles the battery is junk. It easily turns the engine over since the starter doesn't draw near the amps as older starters.
CCA doesn't designate the size of the battery. You want to look at how many plates are inside to determine its size. Size of the battery case will determine how many months the battery can last. The taller the battery case leaves more room below the plates inside for sediment to build up before the sediment shorts out the lead plates inside. Most lead plates are the same size in many batteries. Batteries used to be identified in group size such as a "Group 35".I got this information from some one who use to work at a Battery Factory. I could go on but will stop here.

John, I've been following this for a while to see what the results would be. Evidently it's working...

What he's done is dropped to a low amp battery and used the #10 wire as a resistor to calm down the 6v starter.

At first I was skeptical that it would have much effect. The moment it takes the starter to get up to speed and engage the drive, it is not under load yet so it would be getting 12v. Once it engaged and came under load, the resistance of the wire and low battery output would allow for a good voltage drop.

My thinking was the drive and gear damage are done on engagement, not during cranking. But then I could be wrong, maybe there is enough unloaded starter amp draw to slow it down.

Time will tell!

Well many don't believe me, but I have witnessed a JD B with a mag. spin too fast that the impulse coupling could not work. Just may also be the trouble with your Mag. ign. tractor ? When this happens you are now trying to start at an advanced timing setting and that can break things !

If the tractor pops right off and runs, 10ga wire is fine. It doesn't carry the current long enough to get hot.

I'm convinced that Geo has the absolute worst luck in the world. Between myself and my father, we have several 6V Farmalls converted to 12V, with their original 6V starters, and have not had one single solitary starter problem, ever. He has one and broken starters is a chronic problem.

Since 12 volts can be a bit tough on some 6 volt starter drives, its typical (for those who aren't electrically challenged lol) to use small batteries and/or too small cables etc to soften the blow and lessen that hard initial engagement since small cables drop excess voltage (I x R drop) and small batteries cant deliver such high currents. IT CAN BE A GOOD IDEA (subject to engine and how hard to crank and temperature etc) IF YOU USE 12 VOLTS ON A 6 VOLT STARTER IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS (NOT all)

OF COURSE if you have a big engine with decent compression hard to crank, then you need proper size battery cables and a high CCA high capacity battery especially when its cold. Its only for a smaller easy to crank engines when you use 12 volts on a 6 volt starter you might use way too small cables to drop voltage and very small batteries to reduce starter drive damage.

When its zero outside and you have a 6 volt tractor on a fairly big engine YOU DONT WANT 10 GAUGE CABLES AND WIMPY BATTERIES THEN LOL

This isn't rocket science, just common sense and simple physics when it comes to what size cables and what size batteries are needed when you start using 12 volts on 6 volt starters etc and the engine size and compression and temperature all make a difference

FOR SURE desulfating is a good idea and yes it works. In the RV where I have four Trojan T-105 Batteries my Smart 4 Stage charger has an automatic desulfate cycle plus once a year I use my big charge at home to manualy run a desulfate cycle TROJAN RECOMMENDS IT

John T

Mike, that's a true and typical problem since some Wico Mags stop impulsing at around 250 RPM. If they crank too fast the mag will fire at perhaps 25 BTDC YIKES lol

John T

if your starter was in good shape and with the correct cables it would start just fine just how do you think we farmed with them when they were new and on 6v it was because they where in shape to do their job starting with batt and then cables. We ground feed at least 2 times a week so the M always started cause we kept it in a shed and everything in good working condition.

We're talking about horsepower here or watts if you will......1 hp = 746 watts (volts x amps in a dc circuit, considered to be the period of a second, unless time is involved, like hours for watt-hours or the more familiar term: kilowatt-hours for household power consumption).

To spin a certain engine at a certain speed under certain conditions for a certain length of time takes a certain amount of "work" measured as HP or kW x time required.

A battery stores "work" as "unconsumed" energy (which is the definition of work when consumed) in the form of watt-seconds meaning it will supply x number of volts x amps x time.

CCA makes no mention of the other two elements of energy storage: At how many volts, for how long. If we were to take the time to look up the definition of how the CCA rating is to be determined, we would see "the rest of the story" (Paul Harvey).

Starters in my corral require approx. 10v across the starter to spin up and when considering connectivity losses, which increase drastically when larger engines are involved due to higher amperage requirements, at least 11v needs to be at the battery terminals.

Sulphate is an oxide scale forming on the conducting plates of the battery as a result of the electric charge and the Sulphuric Acid-water (H2SO4+H20) solution. When it gets thick enough and enough vibration is present, some of it falls to the bottom of the battery case and in time piles up.

Sulphate amounts to a resistor in the circuit, inside the battery. Current flowing through the battery develops a counter voltage across this "resistance" which subtracts from the terminal voltage under the cranking load. Since the starting circuit is a "series" circuit, resistance anywhere in the circuit acts the same in limiting available current flow for a given voltage. Static battery voltage value does not take this into account as there is no current hence no counter voltage drop.

This is where the battery tester comes into play. It forces the battery to deliver whatever current you select and tells you the terminal voltage of the battery. (I have a HF unit and works great) If the battery is under charged or sulphate coated plates, the terminal voltage falls off fast as the current is increased.
Using a reference from my Mercury 90 hp outboard motor service manual, the stated starting current is 120 amps. I use 12.75V year around as my benchmark value for a fully charged lead acid battery, rather than a Hydrometer which I don't have.....todays digital multimeters makes this possible.

If I need 10V at the terminals of the starter at 120 amperes for as many seconds as it takes for the engine to light off, then the total circuit resistance can't be greater than (12.75v-10v)/120 amps = 0.023 ohms which is hard for the connectivity to measure with suitable wire and the connections clean, and bright, and tight, much less any resistance in the battery. So yes, sulphate matters as does size (surface area) and number of plates.

One thing I found (conventional "old school" LA batteries) is that the lower the CCA for a given battery size (24, 27, whatever) the shorter are the plates. The shorter the plates, the more room at the bottom of the battery for sulphate to collect before it shorts out a cell.

I don't know what happens when you put a fiberglass mesh between the plates like some current battery technology. Seems to me it improves the life span and maybe that's why I just got 9+ years out of the battery that was in my 2007 Branson 6530c. I never got that much service out of a battery.

Well, I didn't have anything else to do this morning. It's a "cabin" day and "cabin fever" is quick to set in. Hope I remembered it all correctly. I do things like this to keep what mind I have left active.....I think. Grin

On a JD with that heavy flywheel, I think it would fire up rather than kick back. Those drives break when they first hit the ring gear.

I have seen those HD drives on E-Bay for the C starter.

That's also a C model Farmall - a lawnmower battery is plenty. The Ford is a different matter as it is a higher horsepower engine. The Farmall engine is the same one as the A and B engines if I am not mistaken. That's around 20 horse or so.

[i:654c4848f0]...showed 210cca at 40 degrees[/i:654c4848f0]

What does this even mean? I thought CCA was measured at a "cold" temp (hence the first "C"). Different manufacturers cheat a little and measure differently, but CCA used to mean the number of amps that could be delivered over a set amount of time at a cold temp without the battery voltage dropping below a certain level. The standard test used to be amps that could be delivered for 30 seconds at 0 degrees F without dropping battery below 7.2 volts at the terminals.


Did you measure CA (cranking amps) at 40 degrees? What time and voltage? How did you measure? What did you use for a load?

As a 'workaround' solution, I can see why one would do this. Just allow a certain amount of resistance to build up as heat is generated during cranking. But - not ideal, or even recommended. Large, hot wires are not a good plan.

Get a 12V starter, or if you really want to get resistance find an old carbon pile or resistance box and mount it to the side of the tractor and wire it in to provide the kind of voltage drop needed.

Better yet, properly maintain a 6V system and it'll do the job just fine. I started my 8N in Feb up in CO at 9F to plow some snow. Good oil, good cables, Working carb and choke. It took a few cranks to keep it going, but I never worried about destroying my starter while it was cranking. Keeping the terminals and connections clean and free of corrosion is just regular maintenance. I also let it run for a bit after starting to warm up correctly, and charge the batt back up to it's normal voltage.

How will a heavy duty drive prevent a 6v starter from breaking teeth off starter ring when it's being over powered with a 12v battery?

JohnT,
I find it hard to believe the excide battery has a 2001 date not to mention I took it off mower because it could not start it. It was taken out of service before I bought my batteryminder 12248 6 years. To top it off the battery is healthier now than it was 6 years ago by running It through many drsulfating charging cycles.

Proof enough drsulfating works if you have the right charger. Occasionally I will have a battery doe all the sudden, like it developed an open. Or one cell will go bad.

I thought you were breaking the drives.

Try and find an unbroken starter nose for the larger gas tractors like a 720 or 730. Guys let the timing get off and the kick back will break the starter nose off.

Hi Mike
Yes it is true, I have a gas Fordson e27n it has hand crank and electric start with a mag. With the hand crank it will fire up after about 5 pulls if it's sat a year. If a guy gets lazy and puts a battery on it. I can spin it on the starter until it floods, if I don't hit the starter button in short bursts to allow the mag to catch right. I've seen guys on youtube try tow them to start to fast. They pop and bang randomly with huge amounts of fuel in the cylinders getting random sparks as they are trying to tow them faster than the impulse works to.
Regards Robert

4 drives and last time a tooth on starter ring. That's when I bought 12v starter for Jubilee. Couldn't find 12v starter for Farmall C. Sorry I put the weakest battery I had sitting around, a 2001 mower battery, which I'm still using and drsulfating. Now the old battery is healthier than when I put it on 4 or 5 years ago
Can't remember exactly when. If I looked in archives I may find a post on Ford where I posted a chipped tooth.

(quoted from post at 07:06:18 01/04/17) if your starter was in good shape and with the correct cables it would start just fine just how do you think we farmed with them when they were new and on 6v it was because they where in shape to do their job starting with batt and then cables. We ground feed at least 2 times a week so the M always started cause we kept it in a shed and everything in good working condition.

Click to expand...

Spent a ton of money constantly replacing batteries and cables, having starters rebuilt. Only to be disappointed by the 6V system time and again. Brand spanking new battery fresh off the charger, freshly rebuilt starter, new cables, shiny connections... barely turns over... You tell me how much more "properly maintained" one could possibly get...

Convert it to 12V, same starter, same cables, and haven't touched the electrical system in 25 years. Spins it over so fast you have to let off the key for it to start.

They have a different bendix spring. Had to change it on my 300U after it snapped the "6 volt" spring. Came out in three pices.

Hello Bob in SD,

CCA rating is the standard load test for automotive batteries. The test is as follows: the battery is loaded at 1/2 its rated CCA rating. Load is held for 15 seconds. Passing voltage is 9.6 Volts or higher @80 degrees F. The zero degrees test is done @ full CCA LOAD @0 degrres F. As you stated 7.2 volts kr higher is tbe passing voltage. Both test determine battery capacity @ 0 degrres F. Thus is the important test because is the most energy required for an automotive battery. The automotive battery is referred to as SLI service; START; LIGHTS; IGNITION. You asked about temperature.

@ 80 degrees F. Battery power available is 100% ot its rated CCA capacity.

@ 32 degrees F. Battery power available is 85% of its rated CCA capacity.

@ 0 degrees F. Battery power available is 65% of its rated CCA capacity.

@ -20 degrees F. Battery power available is 45% of its rated CCA capacity.

The required cranking power aLso INCREASES as temperature DECREESES.

Then......battery voltage is useless without a temperature reference.


Guido.

Hello Bob in SD,

CA is also referred to as marine amps. Thet rating capacity is for 32 F.

Guido.

Interesting. I left my Super C as 6 volt and it starts just fine even at 0 degrees. I know 6 volt is a lot less forgiving of bad grounds,
did the starter make good metal to metal contact with the bell housing?

I'm of the exact same mind. I spent about $150 in junk regulators over a year's time before buying a $40 alternator for a smaller tractor. All of
the other little tractors I got as 12 volt conversions or they weren't charging when I got them so I put an alternator on them. Technology has
changed and I don't have time for old technology not working. If one of my field tractors wasn't reliable like that I would convert it, too. I guess it
might be different if they were for a hobby, but each tractor here has its job and if they aren't ready when I am it's a problem.

Now, that said I have an exception. When I got my grandpa's 35 Chevy it was still six volt with everything original. I had my battery place put
bearings in the generator but it still has the same cutout from 35. I use it around the farm on a nearly daily basis. It always growls to a start no
matter the temps. Today it's in the teens and she rolled over about three times and lit off. Give it a second and the amp gauge clicks over to
about 7 amps and away we go. I have no idea why that system still works so well, but it's from a time when everything was built with pride. I'll
probably feel differently if that cutout quits and I have to get some Chinese junk.

Guido, I have to look at battery again. I wiped off a half inch of dirt off battery and the date on battery is March 2001. In a few months that will be 16 years old. I remember getting a batteryminder charger 6 years ago. So ten years ago this battery didn't have enough poop to start a lawn mower, 180 cca. 6 years later 210 cca. Do you think desulfating has something to do with it lasting this long?
geo

Hello Geo,TH, In,

Keeping the battery voltage is the key. Any way you can massage the battery and
prolong its life. Like I said, sulfation is a result of a partial charge. When the battery is NOT fully charged, a heavy load like the starter will draw more amps, and because the Voltage will be LOWER your starter speed will be lower. As larger current is drawn as the battery voltage keeps dropping. Voltage is the speed at which power flows, while amps is energy flowing. Your starter drive did not fail because the battery was too big, but because of the voltage. A,smaller battery will have a lower load voltage, a little easyer on the six volt starter drive. Volt amps would probably show same wattage in your case, but the starter speed would be about twice as much. In this case speed kills! As you found out the result is short life. I do question the 40 degrees reading of you battery though. Assuming that the battery will produce another 10 % more amps @ 80 degrees F. The battery would test at 231amps @80degrees F.? Usually that battery is rated @235 amps new as I recall. If that is the case, One word can describe it AMAZING!!!!! @
Like John T says good sparking with you........


Guido.

I'm with you on the 6V vs 12V if 6 volt systems worked so good they wouldn't have quit using them.

Higher CCA and greater amp hour capacity work hand in hand to extend battery life.
True that a small light weight battery with high CAA and low amp hours is prone to early failure due to having a great number of thinner plates to obtain the CCA.

Do I see speaker wire? on your ''C'' or an ext cord