Minimum Shop Wall Height?

alskdjfhg

Member
First post so if this is in the wrong spot I apologize.

My Dad was a lurker/occasional poster here. He died very suddenly back in September at 53.

He and I were planning on putting a farm together with old two row Case stuff. He'd been collecting stuff just about as long as I've been alive (19 years). He amassed quite a pile of old Case hulks and we were in the process of building a shop in order to overhaul these scrapyard saves and send them to the field.

In addition to starting a farm, I got the desire to start a machine shop a few years ago so Dad and I started collecting old machine tools. Again, before long many machine tool boat anchors were at the farm.

We realized early on that the building we needed was going to cost several hundred thousand dollars. We wanted 40' eave heights with atleast two overhead cranes.

Well in order to building the building we needed at a greatly reduced cost, we decided to do it ourselves. Then we started collecting junk heavy equipment. Case excavator and 40 ton P&H truck crane to name a few.

About now, after years of felling like were pushing a chain, things started to come together and we were starting to build the 100x150 shop we'd planned. Then Dad dropped dead one weekend with no notice from an aortic dissection.

That's pretty much all the background info.

So now, I need a shop, and in a bad way. I can't build the building Dad and I were planning on doing by myself right now. So I'm taking some of the life insurance money and having a shop built.

I think a 40x80 is about as much as I can afford. My question is 16' walls are the minimum I need since the equipment is small, 930 tractor is the largest tractor and 960 is the largest combine. Eventually I'll build the shop Dad and I started so I have future expansion covered.

But how much benefit would I get by upping the wall height from 16' to 18'-20'? It adds a fair bit of cost, but would be very nice.

Sorry for the long windedness, but thanks for any and all info.
 
Sorry for your loss. I'm your Dad's age that's scary stuff.
I don't understand the 40 foot eves ? or were you meaning peak or the tip top of the roof ?
I'd sure think a 16' wall would let you put a 14' overhead door which would also let you pull anything in you can drive down the road as many places have a 13' 6" limit. I get along fine with 10' sidewalls for the most part. But wish I'd of made a section higher to put a car lift into.
 
Also sorry for your loss, 20 years ago, we lost a good friend about 3 years older who died from about the same thing. It's really intimidating when at the cardio doctors office and you see all the posters covering things like this and strokes etc. Preventable for sure, but we are all different, so darned young to have passed. I'm not far from that age myself.

What kind of construction is the building being made of ? Are you committed already or have you not broke ground etc.

With things like this, some value engineering is helpful to determine what the most cost effective type of construction will be.

For the interior height you want or need, the key word here is coordination. Door height, hoists etc. will dictate what you need. If you are planning an overhead crane, same applies and that is where your benefit will be determined, meeting/coordinating the criteria to install whatever you'll need in that building.

Always plan for future use when considering concrete slabs, water, drainage, electrical, whatever you may want later, much more cost effective now than to modify later.
 
Most stuff should fold down to 14 foot high, because that is what is allowed down the road.

Most easy to use/insulate doors need at least 2 feet so you need a 16 foot building.

Now if you want to pull a 14 foot high combine in the shed and work on it, you will bust your head open on rafters/ceiling if your building is 16 foot.

Your lights and possibly radiant heater in the ceiling will be in the way.

Any overhead crane needs at least 2 feet room.

A lot of equipment had some bits near 16 feet high, like combines or a full bale basket or the like. It is nice to be able to run thrm in the shed without worrying about folding stuff down before wrecking the door and machine.

So I would think you would want at least an 18 foot wall, to give you a 16 foot door opening, and head room.

If you plan on using it for real work and with a crane inside now is the time to make it 20 feet, you can't add on vertically at all easy later......

It is easy to spend your money, but think carefully. My relatives farm small, but they got a good deal on a pull type sprayer. It fits in their 12 foot shed door by a couple inches, in their 14 foot building. Don't under build if you do plan on doing work out of it. Remember to allow for headers, trim, door frames, and such, doors get much smaller than the wall height....... Same on width, I put up a shed with a 24 foot wide door, turns out the finished widh opening is more like 23.5 feet - boy do I miss that extra 6 inches I thought I was getting!

Paul
 
Yeah it was really a shock when Dad past.

He was in good enough shape to physically out work just about anyone 20 years younger than him. He and I were also beyond close, working on the farm is made even more difficult because of that. The farm was always "our" thing, but now it's just me.

Bleeding internally from the aorta is what he died from, but the lawyers have asked me not too go into specifics about WHY Dad died from this common treatable condition.

I didn't know this until after Dad past and my estranged uncle (Dad's brother) came to help. Dad's father also died of this condition, but was the first person in medial history to receive the stent they use to fix this problem. Reason Grandpa died was because it was an experimental surgery in an emergency and they couldn't restart his heart after the procedure. But the stent held.

Anyhow, I digress.

The 40x80 is going to be a pole barn.

I'm pretty much committed. I've started the permit application, found a builder, found a dirt guy, cleared the area of tress and will be starting dirt work as soon as possible.

With the 40x80 the heavy indoor material handling will be done by my 25,000lb capacity forklift and I'm planning on buying another small forklift. I'm planing on parking the 40ton truck crane next to the front door to unload a semi or act as a yard crane. The 40x80 is not going to have an overhead crane, I may make a small A frame/gantry that rolls on wheels. Before we got the big forklift, I started building a 5 ton capacity one.

A 14' door wont work. The little combines I've got, already have 14' heads. I was planning on having a 30' opening in the end walls that went all the way up to the base of the trusses and then either having large swinging doors or sliding doors.

I'll clarify the 40' wall dimension a bit. That was for the shop Dad and I were going to building. That 40' would have been to the base of the roof trusses (flat angle iron trusses). This was going to be a VERY heavy steel building with two 25ton overhead cranes

I wont be able to build this building right now so forget I mentioned it. But I will do it eventually as I have the majority of the materials and equipment do to so.
 
Very sorry to read about the loss of your father. I have recently turned 50, and my father at the age of 75 is doing pretty well in spite of a long history of smoking, which he quit 10 years ago. About 15 years ago, we put up a pole shed on our farm. We really wanted to get all of our equipment under roof and on our farm as well. We had rented space from a neighbor, which worked, but we found ourselves waiting for that neighbor and others to prepare for winter storage. It was very common to have everything snowed on before putting it away accommodating others.

Back then, we were looking at a shed around 50 x 80. Any building up to 50 feet wide was fairly reasonable, but once you went past that width, the trusses started getting more expensive. The site prep work included taking down some trees and moving an old junk pile. We painstakingly measured things out and it looked like that 50 x 80 would fit nicely in there. I asked the question as to what another 10 feet in length would cost. At that time, it added another $1600, just under an additional 5 percent to the total cost. We added that into the order, thinking it might be a bit tight in there, but we could take down another old building at a later date if needed. That building looked huge.................until we started putting equipment inside. We are glad we added on the extra 10 feet, and wished we would have added in another 10 feet in length. Such is life. Since that time, we put up another shed of 48 x 72 in size. We can get everything inside and not have things crowded in front of the doors, too.

As a friend of mine told me recently, after he built his first insulated and heated shop, "When it is empty, it looks massive in size, but when you start putting things inside, the walls start to creep in on you." As I shared with you, the added length amounts essentially to 2 poles, another truss, added purlins, and the steel. Added length is the least expensive way to increase the size on this style building. I would consider asking the question from your building source to see what additional length might add to the cost. Then you make the decision to add or not. On the height, you are going to know your needs better than me. We went with 16 foot sidewalls. The first shed will allow a 9500 Deere combine with a Mauer grain tank extension through that door, but the flip up extension must be folded down. The newer shed, this is not necessary.
 
Very sorry for your loss from here too. It will be 5 years on the 17th since we lost Dad suddenly to heart failure,never a day goes by he's not thought of and missed,it was 31 years in the summer since we lost my sister at 17, she's thought of just as much we get over the pain but never stop missing them.
 
40 x 80 is not overly large. I put up 30 x 72 w/16 ft side walls.(limited build space) Doesn't take much to make things crowded.
 
Sorry about your dad. Guess I got lucky. Had a back problem for years, then legs going numb and weak over a year ago. Back x rays picked up an aorta aneurism and two bad ones on the iliac arteries, plus a bad disc. Had five stents, still got a rotten back but I'm alive enough to feel it hurt.
 
Hits close to home I am 52 . I am sorry for your loss.
Go to at least 16' side walls and over head doors. that will give a door height of 14 and that is doable. I have several buildings that have 12 foot doors not enough also have 1 that is 14' foot high but if I put overhead doors in it cuts my doorway height. Good luck Paul
 
Very sorry about the loss of your father, especially at such a young age for the both of you.

Was the machine shop going be for a business or for a hobby? The reason I ask is because from you post it sound like it was for a hobby. In many rural areas today, it takes a good skill or a trade to make half-way decent wages with very much of benefits. At 19 you may be ahead to concentrate on your career and build up some valuable work experience as fast as you can. Once you have a good income you will soon have enough extra money to spend on several hobbies.
 
The machine shop was going to be a business not a hobby.

I originally wanted it to be a hobby, but Dad talked me into stepping up and getting real machines and not toys. My stuff is old manual iron, not too huge but a bit larger than what the average guy has in his garage.

Most impressive is the 40x25' Hendey lathe, 5CK K&T horizontal mill and 3" Forges de Gilley horizontal boring mill.

And yes I hear you about a career, I'm a sophomore at the University of Houston getting a mechanical engineering degree and that's the focus right now.

My "plan" isn't too farm or run the machine shop or farm full time right off the bat, but I want too at-least get the equipment under a cover of some sort and slowly get them to the point where they can eventually earn their keep.
 
I have a building that is 16 ft tall, insulated and extremely difficult to heat, not to mention expensive to heat.

I would be looking at a multi height building, taller for crane and shorter for machine/work that is easier to heat if you want to work in it year around.
 

Upper right hand corner is a button to switch to "modern view". Much better. You get posts in chronological order. Wish they would get rid of classic view, but it's their site, they can do as they wish.

Neighbor is a small-scale machinist. He farms full time, and does machining on the side. He doesn't have machines anywhere close to the size you mentioned. His 40 by 40 shop has a 14' sidewall, and 99% of the time that is adequate. The other 1%, he wished he had built 16 or 18 feet. But here's what he did - 25% of the shop is two story - first story is crammed with machining tools, second story is crammed with woodworking tools. He also half buried it into a south hillside. The north and east walls are concrete for about 9 feet. That'll help alot for heating


I will say this - starting out, you may not want to got whole hog. Build the business, not the building. Starting out with a half million dollar debt is a sure way to make you struggle. 10 years from now, you may find that you don't enjoy machining as much as you do now. Having a crushing debt load makes that more likely because you'll blame the business for your struggles. It doesn't sound like you're doing this, but just keep it in mind.
 
You might look at a steel building with 12, or 14' walls. With no low hanging trusses the peak height at center on a 4-12 pitch would be 1 foot rise every 4 feet. So a 20' wide door would be 10 feet from each side giving an extra 2 1/2 feet from the sidewall. It simply adds to the possibilities. I know a farmer who has a 20' W X 16' H door on a 50' wide building with 12' sidewalls , & 5-12 pitch. Combine is the tallest equipment He has at 14'. Bottom line is a steel building "Can BE" cheaper, & get the tallest machinery in!
 
Heredity plays a role, my grandmother lived with some kind of aneurysm, my father has one but has kept it monitored in regards to size. I've never had high blood pressure, but one should use family history to advantage when having a physical examination.
Our friend knew something was up, I had been in close contact via the phone too. He was a remarkably nice friend, who had 4 young children at the time, his 2nd family as he had kids when he was very young as well. The kids took it real hard as I recall when I visited with his wife. The sad thing was he did not have health insurance, he was in he excavation business all his life, and he should have lived. He was a talented mechanic having to keep all kinds of older equipment operational for his business, and he sure knew his way around old caterpillar equipment.

Pole barn construction is one of the most cost effective types to build, just plan and coordinate carefully. The 18'-0" or 20'-0" walls would allow the higher doorways, but you would have to assess your needs for same, then figure in the additional cost to see if its feasible or even necessary. Longer poles, taller doors, more sheathing, it does add up. A taller door is usually not something most would regret.

It sounds like the original plan was for a fabrication shop, given the hoisting equipment, that is a tall building and certainly going to be costly. At work we have 98,000 sq ft of shop/warehousing, and we have 3 overhead gantrys for steel fabrication, as well as a big one in the newer building where the steel is painted and loaded onto the trucks. I cannot even imagine the cost, they retrofit this place 20 years ago. Sometimes I cannot even imagine the cost just to keep the lights on, and I have seen the gantry repair men working on them at least 3 times this year alone. Incredible shop, but the work has to be steady to keep it rolling.
 
It's always good to have dreams, but it is also vital to be realistic. If your interests are still spread between engineering, running a machine shop and farming, take the time to work out a plan, a budget and a timeline of what it will take to get established in each field. Then talk to people in those industries to fine tune those plans.

Take a good look at the condition of your machine tools. If the ways are starting to rust or the spindle bearings are getting a little rough or loose, it may take some big time and big money to get them back into condition to hold decent tolerances. Chucks, collets, cutting tools, jigs, fixtures and sharpening equipment will also be needed. The capital investment in a machine shop can add up even faster than for farming.

An engineering job, in your home town, with an employer that does not mind you taking time off during the busiest part of their projects so you can plant corn, bale hay or feed calves every night, is extremely unlikely. In engineering a reluctance to travel when needed or to not do what it takes to get the projects done on time and on budget can be a seen as a big handicap in the eyes of a potential employers. Talk over your plans with your academic advisors or your school's department head.

I would advise anyone just starting out to pick a main career and concentrate on doing that very well before trying to branching out into other businesses. Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
 

First off so sorry for your loss, very tough thing to go through at any age, but especially when you are a young guy.

Personally I would recommend that before you spend any money at all, you take some time to do a realistic plan.

Talking to a good career counselor is a great idea. If you have an interest in engineering, go for it. Budget carefully for school, and look for State Universities to get the most bang for your buck.

Back to your shop and maybe somebody else can comment on this. Have you considered including a pit ? A neighbor had a large pit in his shop, with heavy beams and a steel plate he could insert to support narrower width vehicles. Always felt safer than a lift, and possibly less expensive? Also obviously requires less headroom than a lift. Of course most tractor work and farm machinery does not require a lift or a pit.
 

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