southern yellow revisit

I am not a carpenter, but have built 5 small pole barns after moving on this place 20 years ago. Biggest one was 24x66 with 14 foot lean to. This hay barn will be 53x96 with 3 sides having lean to. I am trying to use professional builders for guidance on how to build. Here in west mich we have a 58 lbs. dead snow load rating. to carry that much weight I must use two 2x12 one on top each other, on each side of the upright 8x8. This means FOUR 2x12s for each 8 feet. It will cost almost 3 grand just for headers! I looked at kit buildings that came in the mail like Menards, Lowes, ect. I started saving money and started to get things ready. When it was time to pull the trigger on a package I found out that the prices in the sale flyers was for central lower Michigan. Because I live in Northern, but worse yet ,western Michigan I have to build everything much stronger. Each company I called quoted me 30-40% more for a package than what was in their sale paper. It took me two seasons to get my wallet in order to be able to build. Now I find out that lumber is so much higher than I first thought, that very little money is left for labor. I did think I could use oak for a header but was told it will warp and crack while drying. Small barns you can fudge a little. this one has to be right. I have too much money invested to turn back, and not enough to just throw money at the problem. I refuse to go to a bank, so I am trying to find a different way to skin this cat. Guess the 15 years that passed between now and last barn I built lumber has really went up. Sure feel sorry for the young folks trying to get started.
 
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I started on a twelve by twelve addition for the side of the trailer house last September. Figured it would cost about a thousand dollars. Got around four thousand in it now and still doesn't have a floor in it or the inside walls finished.
 

How about used I-beams for the headers? You could then go further between posts, and not buy so many of those.
 
About 10 years ago, I thinned some of my wood lot, took down a bunch of hemlock, pine, oak and maple. Had someone with a portable mill come in and do dimensional lumber for me. I forget what I told him- of every 10 boards- 2 2x4's, 4 2x6's and 4 2x8's, then with any oddball stuff, do 1x whatever. He took a percentage of the softwood.
Long story short, I ended up with a little more than 15,000 board feet of lumber.

Built barns, sheds, framed a house, pole barn style camper awning etc...
Used the hardwood for various projects

Haven't bought lumber in 10 years Save for the occasional piece of plywood and some larch (Tamarac) from some Amish.

I am out of wood and greatly concerned.

There is something comforting about knowing that whatever project I have in mind, I have wood for it.

I don't have a clue what lumber costs.
I think I need to head out to the wood lot now.
 
I really do not know where you got your load carrying information to select your wood.
I also can not picture your particular plans in my head from the information you have given us.
So I basically took your first post as a get it off my chest complaint about wood prices.

But lets look at a few things you have said.

You are looking for 2x12x16 to use as a header.
Then you said the post will be 8 feet apart.
So let me say you can buy 2x12x8 for 1/3 of 16 foot pieces.
So now we are talking $20 to cover 16 feet rather than $30.


I have never heard of stacking one 2x12 on top of another.
You put them side by side up to 3 thick.
If 3 will not carry the load you go to a bigger size lumber.
So if you need four 2x12 to carry the load you would move to laminated beams.

What are you trying to carry with these beams.
Just the roof or a second floor.
Four 2x12 just seams like a lot of support for a 8 foot span.
 
You need to spend a thousand on a architectural engineer. Truss Joists, gluelam, or steel I beams with notched joists. Doubling the headers adds only a small % to the costs of joists. Jim
 
You have some heavy snow loads and a large roof area. There is not enough information given to get a good idea of the building and lean to foot prints. I would work with a manufacturer, a builder or an engineer to size up something that will work for you at the least cost. Maybe go longer and narrower or with posts between bays instead of clear span.

Check with your insurance company, they may not pay a claim on a building that large if they find it wasn't designed and certified to meet your local building codes.
 
The Oak splitting while dryng. I call BS on that . We have several sheds/polebarns built with rough sawed Elm,Oak,Ash.Both red and white The Elm was the worst for warping. The red oak will split but not from the drying. Ash will split easier than Oak.
I am sure even for your snow load a good Oak or Ash 2x12 will hold the load with 16 feet between the poles. We don't have anything built with poles as close as 8 foot. We are in Shiawassee county MI. Some of these sheds have been up for over 40 years. The last one was built in the 80's. We do bolt a steel plate on the pole over the joint with bolts through the pole and then some through the plank. This is on the outside and a short 6-10 foot plank on the inside . This is all squeezed up by the 5/8 bolt through the pole. 3/8 bolts through the planks. The trusses are even made from this same material 2x6 top chord and 2x4's for the rest. They have 38 feet clear span width. on one. Some have only 32 as that is the size of the shed.
We have considered whether it is worth cutting the logs for sawing with sawing cost being 300.00 per thousand board feet plus the work to get it to the mill. This sawing price is with us helping on the mill. Taking the lumber away from the saw and rolling the log on the carriage. The old boy sawing is in his 80's.
 
You are correct oak can split and warp if it isn't seasoned first. In addition if it's red oak instead of white oak you need to be very careful it doesn't get wet. The open grain of red oak makes it rot easily. Under the circumstances perhaps you would be better off with 8" metal cee purlins. If you could weld strips of metal across the open side of the cee on four foot intervals it will hold as much weight as the yellow pine joist. It would also have the benefit of not sagging over time as wood would. You could span 20' with the cees. I'm not familiar with your snow load needs. You might get with the company that sells them. They will know what is the common spacing in your area. You could probably put one every three feet. In my area I could space them every four to five feet.
 
stacking 2x12 on top is not very common---better off bolting them side x side thru the 8x8 posts. even better use a 3x12 on each side--southern pine comes in many structural grades--dense select structural is almost twice as strong as the lowest grade, Its a good idea to use 16 ft lengths as it will be continuous at one post which lowers the bending moment on the header--I always like to alternate joint locations--so the 8x8 posts will have one joint and one continuous header
 
I was trying to figure out the dimensions of your building after your first post, but I assumed you were using two boards per header, not four. I was pretty sure you weren't building a 192 foot long building! But 96 feet long sounds more believable, even though that's still a big building.

I think you're just going to have to bite the bullet on this. About all you can do is call around and see if you can get a better price. I can't think of a local lumber that's going to be comparable to SYP. I guess you could go from four boards per girder to six or seven, but I suspect the cost will be the same.

I assume when you got your quotes you specified UN-treated lumber. Most lumberyards around here only carry SYP as treated lumber.
 
I'm with you 110% on metal Cees over wood. I started out with wood but over the years saw the benefits of, and migrated to, metal Cees and now build with nothing else. Also, if you really want a strong beam turn the open sides together and weld 2 of them together into a beam and wala. Super strong, light in weight and cheap.

Just remember in the "moment of (inertia) deflection" equation, Height is 3rd order.....2x2x2 = 8 and 3x3x3 = 27 while width is second order, 2x2 = 4, 3x3 =9 sort of thing.....tall and skinny. In building my house was it to be a 3 2x6's side by side beam or a single 2x12. The load factor was about the same (7.7k vs 6.9k) but the cost won out as 3 2x6's were cheaper than one 2x12 and I would have had to add a 2x4 on each side to support the floor joists whereas I just sat the joists on top of the 2x6's.
 
I am with John in LA. Look at laminated beams. I have owner my construction business of over 30 years. When we build pole buildings I use our local Pro Build to supply my framing packages. They have a team of engineers that know the local codes and will engineer it accordingly. The best part about using a company like this is the engineering service is FREE. They designed the trusses, spec beam sizes and everything you will need to get it framed up. Most of my plans are hand drawn, nothing fancy but enough detail required by local government to obtain my building permits. With just dimensions of building, height, pitch of roof and beam spans they can get you going. Stay away from small lumber yards or box stores. Your lumber cost should be less by using a company like Pro Build. Not sure what builder supply companys are in your area but if they sell and or build their own trusses that is the best place to start. Ask a local home builder who they buy their home packages from.
 

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