Tractor Durability

Bill VA

Well-known Member
I enjoy reading posts and stories about old Farmall M's and H's, 400/450's, 300/350's and their JD, Oliver and Allis Chalmers competition of the period.

While not exactly high hp by today's standards, what a nice job these manufacturers did in fielding tractors that could run day in, out, for years on end. Two, three or four bottom plows, discing, cultipacking, seeding, cultivating, fertilizing, haying, etc. 100 - 200 acre farms, maybe larger - lot of ground to cover with a tractor of that day.

While a part time humble haymaker myself, we really run up the hours on my newer JD as its our primary tractor (read - the one that starts every time and never has a flat tire.... ) just going over and over the fields with multiple cuttings, taking, tedding, baling, fertilizer, spraying - it adds up and our hours are nothing as compared to a Farmall M's that worked back in the day.

Not sure today's tractors of equivalent hp (even my newer JD) could ever survive those high hours and full loads. Probably the Ford 8n's or Ferguson TO20/30's weren't as durable (maybe the word is overbuilt) as an old Farmall - just speculation on my part. Perhaps later Ford 600/800 series were better, including the MF50 and 65's. Again don't know.

Working and rolling up the hours on our tractors kind of gives another view as to just how small in hp the old Farmalls, etc were in hp and yet how many hours and acres (much more than we'd ever do) they saw on a farm.

Impressive.

Bill
 
High hours on a newer tractor scare me. The newest tractor here is a 1996 - I don't even have a tier 4 machine! There are 8 frequent use tractors here (7 of them are from the 40's to the 80's). The hours are spread amongst them to keep them all running "forever". Those tractors still rack up about 700 hours a year, and three of them don't have hour meters. One of those without does all of the feed grinding (a Farmall M). Only one machine with computer gizmos gets about 150 hours a year. The rest is spread amongst only mechanical machines. Three of those have over 10,000 hours. I don't expect the newest one to give 10,000 trouble free hours.
 
Have to disagree to a certain extent. It is not unusual to see a 'modern'car with 300,000 of it ,with little or no repair to the drive train. Autos of the 50s Era were pretty well worn out at 100000 and up here, rusted out in 5 years. There are quite a few late model tractors for sale with over 10000 hours still commanding a decent price. Some posters on this site have 'newer'tractors with well over those hours. My dad overhauled a lot of ten year old tractors in his shop in the 60's, of all makes, most of them would have had far less than 10000 hours. They were good for another ten years or so, but by then we're either obsolete or worn out in every area.I agree, they don't build 'em like they used to, they build em better. Ben
 
Couldn't agree more. I think its the computers on todays tractors that will kill them. When the computer becomes obsolete on a machine there will be a point when the machine is done no matter what the condition of it.
 
I have a very worn out 850 retired in my yard, I did my best to maintain it, and 14 years later, I was able to upgrade to something much newer, but I owe a lot of thanks for the work and the paying jobs it did. The LP fueled 172 4 cylinder motor still runs well with good oil pressure and is likely the reason it made it for so long. Clutch needs a pilot bearing and the steering box is shot.

On the way to work from lunch break today, a long time farmer, one of the last small dairymen nearby was raking hay with an old farmall that was rust/patina colored. There was an IH dealer not far from their and they have mostly farmall/IH still between that dairy farm and the vegetable farm next to it.
 
We have 5 JD tractors at work, I forget the numbers, probably around 100 hp FWA. They get used for mowing and running a broom. They are 4 years old with anywhere from 1,900-2,800 hours on them, and there is always something wrong with them, usually associated with something electrical.
 
I know the newer hour meters add hours up faster but ...we had two 8400 John Deere's one had over 11000 hours and the other over 12000 hours and they didn't have an easy life...only trouble we had once a snap ring broke on one of the front wheels on the fwa
 
The old tractors lasted so long because they had low RPM engine's and no plastic. Of course, the low RPM's was one of the reasons they were low horsepower. I see these farmers that buy these large new tractors to pull their round balers and end up also using the same tractor to pull a hay rake. I think they should buy an old smaller tractor to pull the smaller implements to save putting so many hours on their new tractor.
 
I got some old ones , and I got some new ones . And if I have to cover a lot of acres in a day , for days on end , give me the new ones. My two newest tractors get on average 400 hours each per year . Some of my 40 = year old's will get 150. I still like to run them ,but not long days , rough ride and no air .
 
(quoted from post at 19:21:11 07/20/16) Have to disagree to a certain extent. It is not unusual to see a 'modern'car with 300,000 of it ,with little or no repair to the drive train. Autos of the 50s Era were pretty well worn out at 100000 and up here, rusted out in 5 years. There are quite a few late model tractors for sale with over 10000 hours still commanding a decent price. Some posters on this site have 'newer'tractors with well over those hours. My dad overhauled a lot of ten year old tractors in his shop in the 60's, of all makes, most of them would have had far less than 10000 hours. They were good for another ten years or so, but by then we're either obsolete or worn out in every area.I agree, they don't build 'em like they used to, they build em better. Ben

If the older cars and trucks had the same fuel injection and air filtration that we have today I think they would last much longer.

The old cars had some pretty bad roads to travel too. Newer cars probably wouldn't hold up on those roads. A few years ago we bought a farm at the end of a 3 1/2 mile gravel road. My wife had a newer ford Taurus. Within 6 months that car was shaken apart and barely running. They are just too low to the ground.
 

The Ford 100 models were more powerful, but were also higher revving, so they needed more frequent overhauls. The big horse on my uncles 80 milker farm for fifteen years was an 860. During silo filling time that 860 pulled a one row corn chopper, hour after hour, day after day, week after week, in first gear at full throttle. Not long before he died he told me that he had rebuilt it three times during those fifteen years. After the fifteenth year, while my aunt and uncle were on vacation in Florida, my cousin bought a five year old 5000 at auction. When my uncle came home he was pretty upset about the waste of money, but next fall when they finished filling the silos in just 2/3 of the time that it used to take, he was pretty happy.
 
Most of the old tractors still alive today will have surprisingly few hours on them if you have an accurate tally. There were so many of them built that some of them were not used that hard and they are the survivors today. The highest hour tractors are likely built in the late 80's to about 2005 when they started ruining them with emissions technology that does not work well. Even the electronic tractors built today will be working for a long time to come as aftermarket suppliers come up with electronic upgrades.
 
I know a couple guys with tractors less than 10 years old that are ready to junk them because of expensive repair bills.The more complicated a machine is the less likely it'll be around for a long time.
 
I have an Oliver 1755 and a White 2-105 for mowing and baling, but I use my Allis D-14 for all the raking, tedding and odd jobs. I love my bigger tractors, but the old Allis is the most reliable piece of equipment I have.
Pete
 
I tend to disagree. I have my Grandfathers DC Case. It was his loader tractor, and his "big"tractor for over 30 years. I am sure it was started nearly every day for a good part of that time. Later in its life it became the mower tractor. It had a set of double bar Kosch mowers hooked behind it up until he retired in 1991, then my brother and I bought it and it had a different set of mowers hooked to it. The last 15 years its had a fairly easy life. 5 foot rotary mower tied to it, and maybe a 16 wheel H&S rake, if I didn't want to unhook a different tractor.
I know Grandpa overhauled it in about 1970 and it slobbers some oil out the top, but she pops off at half a turn and continues to earn her way.
 
They were durable but many farmers had to double team the tractors they had. It was not uncommon to run all day, switch operators and go part of the night doing heavy tillage and seed bed preparation. They accrued a lot of hours on less that perfect oils. The metallurgy of the rings, sleeves and bearings was not as good. Every dealership had a shop full of tractors to be overhauled at any given time. The number of tractor repair shops in any area at that time is a testament to the repairs needed to maintain these old workhorses from the 30's thru the 70's. Had it not been for the simplicity of these machines coupled with the relatively cheep parts they would have never survived. How many times do you think an early 40's M Farmall, John Deere A, Ford N or Massey 44 had new sleeves, pistons and bearing sets in a 15 to 20 year life? Yes they were durable but still need regular maint. and major repair to last. The true problem with most of the newer units will be the cost and complexity of repairs to maintain these tractors. In days gone many of these tractors were overhauled in corncrib and grainery alleyways by farmers who had no formal training in this work. What they had was the ability to read and under stand a simple manual. They because of the simplicity of these earlier tractors could do a lot of the work themselves. That has changed and will as stated be the death of the newer ones. I think the mechanical aspect of this more modern equipment is as or more durable but the further electronics go the faster these machines become obsolete. Maybe not so much that's its not repairable but not compatable with ever changing farming practice and equipment requirements. As far as the aftermarket supplying replacement parts that will be limited by the lower numbers of new generation tractors being built. The lack of numbers will lower the profit point on any parts produced and profit will as always drive what is made.
 
My dad has told me back in the 40s when they farmed 80 acres with a 9N ford they had to completely rebuild the engine every other year. Yes the tractor was overworked but cared for and he still has that tractor today. I guess you can say that tractor was build well to survive that long but it also has had many replacement parts put on it. How many hours and gear changes does it take to wear out shifting forks and the top cover of the transmission? The tractor had a pretty easy life since that last rebuild so hopefully it lasts 75 years.
 
Well actually not many knew how many miles were on an old car because it was common practice for the dealers to "set the clock" as they called it. I call it roll back the miles ! Wasn't hard at all for an experienced tech to do it in a jiffy ! The electronic age introduced speedometers that you cannot roll back.
 
I agree. There are a lot of 30-50 year old tractors out there that are still less than 10,000 hours and a lot of them with less than 5000 hours. "Big" 100 hp+ tractors from the 60s and 70s can still be found regularly with 6000-7000 hours on them (some times a lot less). Then I stop by my younger brother's house and he's talking about trading off the MX275 he bought new because it has 11,000 hours on it and its due for an overhaul.
 
Old machines, not just tractors and equipment, were built in the day before strength of materials was the exact science it has become. As a result the engineers of the day built everything heavy because they didn't know the exact limits and didn't have a computer to do the heavy lifting for all the calculations.

Today they built heavy enough for the computer to tell them that it is just enough to meet minimum spec (that is not a put-down, the profit depends on meeting spec but no more).

Old machines were designed to run as far into the future as they could imagine which also accounts for some heavy-duty building. Today they design such that there will be a continuing market.
 
(quoted from post at 15:39:09 07/20/16) I enjoy reading posts and stories about old Farmall M's and H's, 400/450's, 300/350's and their JD, Oliver and Allis Chalmers competition of the period.

While not exactly high hp by today's standards, what a nice job these manufacturers did in fielding tractors that could run day in, out, for years on end. Two, three or four bottom plows, discing, cultipacking, seeding, cultivating, fertilizing, haying, etc. 100 - 200 acre farms, maybe larger - lot of ground to cover with a tractor of that day.

While a part time humble haymaker myself, we really run up the hours on my newer JD as its our primary tractor (read - the one that starts every time and never has a flat tire.... ) just going over and over the fields with multiple cuttings, taking, tedding, baling, fertilizer, spraying - it adds up and our hours are nothing as compared to a Farmall M's that worked back in the day.

Not sure today's tractors of equivalent hp (even my newer JD) could ever survive those high hours and full loads. Probably the Ford 8n's or Ferguson TO20/30's weren't as durable (maybe the word is overbuilt) as an old Farmall - just speculation on my part. Perhaps later Ford 600/800 series were better, including the MF50 and 65's. Again don't know.

Working and rolling up the hours on our tractors kind of gives another view as to just how small in hp the old Farmalls, etc were in hp and yet how many hours and acres (much more than we'd ever do) they saw on a farm.

Impressive.

Bill

I'm running my 45 year old Allis 175D every day brushhogging for others. I could afford a newer cab tractor, but every time I look at one or read about problems they are having with them I decide to stay with what I have. So far this year I have replaced a tie rod (had a near new one on a parts tractor), had a bearing go out on a final drive (replaced with a complete drive I had laying out back), and a couple of flat tires. People talk about the importance of having a good dealer nearby....I can't remember the last time I needed a dealer! I like it that way....
 


The down fall I see coming with newer tractors will be the electronics. The five year old laptop I used at work had to be replaced to run the programs I need now. How will this apply to the ECU for the tractor engine. How long will any manufacturer keep these computers in production. Technology changes so fast that systems from a few years ago will not be used. There are posts on this sight about not owning your tractor because the programs are proprietary. If these systems can not be duplicated how will someone be able to refurb grandpa's tractor in fifty years.

If I need a gear for the Ford 5000 I have the option of finding a machine shop that will make it. Who will build an engine ECU for me thirty years from now. With the cost of the ECU, I don't expect to find many on the local dealers shelf. I don't believe that ECU will survive the elements as well as a 8N transmission either. Sorry for the rant
 
(quoted from post at 16:21:11 07/20/16) Have to disagree to a certain extent. It is not unusual to see a 'modern'car with 300,000 of it ,with little or no repair to the drive train. Autos of the 50s Era were pretty well worn out at 100000 and up here, rusted out in 5 years. There are quite a few late model tractors for sale with over 10000 hours still commanding a decent price. Some posters on this site have 'newer'tractors with well over those hours. My dad overhauled a lot of ten year old tractors in his shop in the 60's, of all makes, most of them would have had far less than 10000 hours. They were good for another ten years or so, but by then we're either obsolete or worn out in every area.I agree, they don't build 'em like they used to, they build em better. Ben

We can put more miles on todays cars simply because those miles are accumulated much quicker, with less time to cool down and allow moisture to condense in the various components. We also have much better oil and other lubricants than what we had 75 years ago. Yes, we MIGHT get 300,000 miles out of a car today, but then we just throw it away. There is nothing left to repair. Todays cars are really not built any better.
 
This is pretty amusing. You can check it our yourselves but yesteryears cars had an average life of 100-120K miles. And a lot of people bought them new and drove them to death. No roll back there. 12K tune ups and 2K oil changes. Todays average car is expected to last at least 200K with no major repairs.

As far as the old tractors. Bet there are few if any Farmall M's or H's out there that haven't had at least 4-5 engine rebuilds if not more. Want to impress me? Show me an M with a independent party certification that has run 10K hours without an engine rebuild. I know a lot of tractors, diesels, that were build in the 60's and beyond have over 10K hours without any work being done on the engine.

Rick
 
Beg to differ.....my first car, 73 Pontiac Ventura, compact car...points, cap, plugs
rotor every year...auto choke adjusted every 6 months...exhaust replaced every other
year....tires and brakes every 3 years or so....body and paint every five years.
Drove it for ten years,125,000 ,miles, motor was using oil, rear springs were
coming,through the floor, car was done. Just quit driving a 99
Toyota Corolla...310,000 miles, one tune up, original exhaust, body, paint, runs like
a clock but floors had rust issues. Like all newer cars, you only had to start it
once...none of this cold stalling etc. I agree when a computerized control gives
trouble, it can be frustrating...but that does not happen very much anymore as
systems have been perfected. A new full size car will give me at least twice the fuel
mileage as my Pontiac did and blow it into the dust, and require far less servicing
and at least if not far more dependable. I say again, they don't build 'em like they
used to, they build em better. Ben
 
Agreed. Comparing what comes down the assembly line today to what came down the assembly line 35 and 55 years ago is a joke. The cheapest cars today will run circles around the most expensive Cadillacs and Lincolns of the 50s and 60s and need a lot less maintenance while doing it. In the 50s and 60s most gas stations were "service stations" to keep the average car running till the next tank of gas, such stations are a rarity today because even the crappiest car today doesn't need that kind of service.
 

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