Ground wire?

Looks to me it's a ground wire, touching the ground. House in south end of county went two years with wire on the ground before I saw a service truch go by and I told him where the wire was down . Now this wire is down where someone can see it from the road. Is the wire really needed? Power station is 4 miles on the other side of river.

I think the power must be turned off on that line as there is only one other wire.

Rural Saskatchewan often only has one wire servicing properties.

Yes, it is the neutral return wire for the 7.2k volt line. Neutral returns to source via ground however all ground is not neutral conductive therefore they use a overhead conductor for the return to ensure. Needs repairing as it can be a conductive hazard.

Metal thieves are known to steal the neutral from distribution lines.

You could always call the power Co and tell them the line is down. They will be there to check it out pronto.

oj,

When my dad was young, born in 1920, he attended a trade school to learn who to wire houses back in the day when bare wires were run in attics and sent through insulated devices in rafters. I think it was called rod and tube or rod and knob, not sure, not important.

He said the same thing. Some people would wire up a well pump with power wire only and use the metal well pipe as ground. Back then terminology want a big deal, ground, common, neutral was the only wire connected to ground. BYW, I learned from BUBBA the difference and the reason for the terminology. geo.

Mark, That's exactly what the REMC service guy said when I told him of the wire that was down for 2 years in a remote location no one could see from the road. It was a hassle trying to explain to a woman on a phone where that wire was, so I waited until I saw someone.

So if it's such a great emergency, why did it work for two years and no problems? REMC guy said it really wasn't because everyone of their poles are grounded.

I did notice every pole is grounded near a transformer on a pole and the same ground wire is attached to the metal case of the transformer. So here is a case where ground and neutral is the same wire like on the old close dryers and ranges.


geo.

Tube and knob. The tube part was where the bare wire had to pas thru something and the knob was like an electric fence insulator. If you would have a fencer inside a building now you would still use a tube to get the wire outside to the line that the insulators on the posts the term was knob for insulator. In the fence the animal makes the circute complete to the earth but with the tube and knob house wire you had to have both the hot and ground-nutral to complete the circut.

NOT The Same . The neutral is a grounded current carrying conductor. Held to near earth potential. Safer than having two lines above earth potential .
The one wire to a well pump is a hangover from the bad old days when they didn't know any better, were cheap, it didn't matter if somebody got hurt and it only mattered if it "worked".
If they knew then what we know now. The "incorrect " grandfathered wiring practices still in operation would never have been installed. There was a time when they used to fuse the "neutral" which is a hazardous practice.
Knob and Tube was the first wiring . In some ways it was better than the first rubber insulated two conductor and no ground wiring.

You do not need a nutral to have power working. Years ago had gravel delivered in drive and truck evidently when unloading cought the netrual and busted it as it was over a month later when we saw the ends of that wire hanging down in the corn field but we were never without power.

You need to conduct a message to the coop so they can conduct a repair order to the conductive repair crew so they can send out someone to conduct an investigation so they can conduct a repair crew out to repair the broken conductor by splicing the broken conductor with a conductor splice and suspending the repaired conductor via the neutral conductor insulators then make out a report concerning the broken conductor and the repairs made by the conductor repair crews stating location of conductor failure, possible cause of conductor repair, materials use for conductor repair and travel time required for conductor repair. These are initial reports made by conductor repair crew leader while on site of conductor failure so that a more detailed report can be made by the conductor repair crew leader in the conductor repair crew leaders cubicle that that he can present the initial conductor repair report to the crew leaders General foreman so a more detailed report can be made which requires the review of the conductor repair crew leader so the conductor repair crew leader General foreman can present the conductor repair report to the General manager so be can present the conductor repair report at the utility boards monthly meal meeting so the General manager can be recognized for managing such a fine conductor repair crew. WHEW! From a former government manager.

Good neighbor George, thanks for posting the pic and great question. I'm a poor teacher because I've tried for yearssssssssssssssssss to explain this to the non electricians (including Billy Bob and Bubba) but I've failed lol. However, its impossible to explain in a paragraph what can take years of study and experience to understand, so maybe I'm not that bad of a teacher after all lol. Hey I have tried like (*&^%$ so give me credit for that, maybe it helped save a life and maybe a few non electricians or non engineers or technicians here are starting to understand it??? IF NOT dont feel bad that dont make them a bad person. Different strokes and different professions and education and experience for different folks. There are trained professional mechanics and plumbers and farmers and electricians etc etc etc here, and people trained in one field cant be expected to understand what a person trained and experienced in another can.


YOUR QUESTION: "Is the wire really needed?"

1) If you mean the wire down from the Neutral to an earth ground rod, the answer is YES and a minor NO;

YES, earth Grounding of the Neutral at every few overhead HV utility poles and at service entrances IS NEEDED to a) Protect against lightning strikes and surges b) Stabilize and keep the grid at a common low voltage reference MOTHER EARTH.

NO, It will still work if the Neutral weren't earth grounded every so often and at service entrances, but lightning and surges could cause more damage and the grid would be less stabilized and NOT all at the same common low voltage MOTHER EARTH reference.


2) If you mean the Neutral itself running horizontally up there on the utility poles; Again YES its needed with a minor NO

YES its needed to conduct normal return current from the HOT and its a low resistance (less voltage drop) copper or aluminum or coated conductor same as the HOT Conductor.

NO things can still "work" (albeit not perfect and subject to voltage drop across higher resistance earth) BECAUSE mother earth itself can serve as a "conductor" (even if dirt is more resistive then a copper wire) but its resistance depends on moisture and mineral and iron content SO SEE WHY A WIRE IS BETTER TO CONDUCT RETURN CURRENT THEN DIRT?????

SUMMARY so that's why you can use a single HOT conductor and use mother earth dirt as the return conductor instead of another wire, but dirt has more resistance then copper and there will be voltage drop and I Squared R energy loss when using it.

NOTE Billy Bob and Bubba needn't flame now because BY GOLLY they and their daddy made something work for years just using one wire and earth as the return current conductor I DIDNT SAY IT WOULDNT WORK I tried to explain why it can work but the reasons why a wire is better as its way less resistance then dirt SO DO AS YOU DARN WELL LIKE AND IF YOU HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR SOMETHING BETTER OR SAFER GO CONVINCE THE NEC AND OSHA, you don't need to argue with little old me lol

George, I know you understand all this but good question to try and help others, best wishes and hope to see you and Wilson at Elnora

John T Long retired EE and rusty so NO WARRANTY take or leave this at your own peril, do whatever you like THERE lol

Pete, thanks for your post, when you say "Neutral returns to source via ground " a rusty old retired Power Distribution Engineer would say it different, like this:

Neutral current normally and preferably returns to the source via the Neutral current conductor which, to protect against lightning and surges and stabilize the grid at a common low voltage earth reference, happens to be earth grounded at every few utility poles and all transformers and service entrances.

What I'm saying is the Neutral conductor carries normal return current (NOT earth) and that conductor is grounded to mother earth at several locations to reduce lightning and surge problems and, as I explain below, things can still "work" if you use dirt instead of that wire up there. The conductor returns current to the source normally but if not there sure earth can suffice to some degree but you dont see much one wire HV service out there"""

See my post below for a more detailed explanation

HOPE THIS HELPS nice post, have a great day

John T Too long retired Electrical Engineer and rusty so no warranty but believe this is still correct

Buick, hey we have BOTH tried to explain this here for years but I'm about ready to give up are you lol

John T

Thats a lot of conductors to conduct.LOL

Zooming in on the picture it appears that is a broken wire draped down to the earth.

That is a bad thing.

Typically that bottom wire is the neutral, which is used to complete the loop, or carry electricity back to the power station. So it isn't considered 'live' but it does, at times, have a different voltage than the earth does and can at times be dangerous.

The top wire is carrying the juice from the power company, and that whole branch of the service likely still works. Without that bottom wire hooked up, now the power comes in on the top wire, and returns back to the power company through all the grounds that are along the way.

That is an imperfect system tho, as the earth does not uniformly provide a return path. As the dirt gets dry, or gets sandy, or any of dozens of other conditions, the earth becomes a poor return path, and the electricity will ebb and flow and be somewhat wild.

We don't want 'wild' electricity that is hunting and pecking its way back to the power company. It 'works' that way, but it is not the best or safe way.

So, that is a bad thing, as I see it, and should be fixed very soon by the power company, as soon as they become aware of it.

Paul

Reality is that electrons flow in conductors when there is more in one place than another. If the place they go levels out the # of electrons, the flow stops. As pointed out, the primary way the US is wired includes two wires, one we call hot, and the other a grounded neutral. This allows the flow to continue from the source through the load, and back to the source, and prevents (when correctly configured) electrons from flowing through mother Earth. Remember we are dealing with 60Hz AC. The electrons do not move at near the speed of light in a wire. They move only as far as they get (really slow in a fat wire with small current, and pretty fast in a thin wire conducting max current) So with the push and pull of polarity in the AC circuit, it is clearly possible for electrons (one named John, one named Pete, and one named Jim) to never get all the way out of a wire except by accident. They just go back and forth like the pendulum of a clock. Mother Earth is so massive and shares so well, that the return Neutral/ground. can be broken and still work. Canada has substantial single wire distribution in rural locations. Does this cause stray voltage to curl the lips of horses? it can if the local ground is insufficient to absorb the electrons, and or it gets dry. Just a different way of looking at it. Jim

When a tornado went through here in the 90s, a very long path, there were a lot of lines strung up, single wire service, to get power available to the farm places. They had to bring in a lot more wire, and a lot of workers, to get things wired properly over the following weeks.

It was odd seeing the single wire runs of new wire.

It works to use the earth as the 'return wire' but it is so variable, we don't have a good control of how the earth is creating the return path, how the resistance varries during the seasons, and so forth.

Paul

why do you care where it goes it doesent belong to you and all you are doing is open up a can of worms about something no person on this site can answer cause we dont know where it came from and where it goes the electric people who own it are who to question. What does it have to do with a tractor discussion board.

> So if it's such a great emergency, why did it work for two years and no problems?

The neutral line provides a low impedance return path for current. If it's not there, the current has to find another path, which is through the ground. For a number of reasons it's not good to have significant current flowing through the earth. It can cause voltage drop, and differences in earth potential create a shock hazard for humans and livestock.

Actually, electricity always, always returns to it source. If the source is a generator then that electricity to the power transformer returns to the generator via a generator neutral. If the source is the transmission lines from the power transformer then it returns to the power transformer via the overhead neutral conductor. If the source is the distribution transformer then it still returns to its source. In this case it is from the distribution transformer via the overhead primary wire, to the load and then returns via the overhead neutral return an or earth return. This is for a single phase 7200 volt line. Three phase distribution lines are different. Electricity has been studied, practiced, utilized, taught, generated and controlled for 130 plus years. Try living in a tractor world without this "unseen force".

Thanks John, knew when I hit the post button I should have used the wording earth. I too have been away from it awhile and although I have tried not too, I still give it some thought on occasion. Responded to genes post above but may have failed again.

1n 1939 an electrical engineer wired his house with the switch controlling neutral, back then it was correctly or incorrectly called ground because it was connected to ground.

To make a long story short. A broken neutral can be extremely hazardous. There is a potential of primary voltage between the two ends of the wire or to ground. Metal thieves have been removing the copper pole ground which can make the hazard much higher. Electricity will take the best path to ground. You don't want to be that path. When the Utility repairs that broken neutral they will use insulated sticks and ground cables to bond the two ends before splicing.
Dave

Chill, Dude.

Mornin Dave, to add just a bit to your post " Electricity will take the best path to ground."

As I was taught and practiced for over forty years I would add to your statement and say that "Current takes ANY AND ALL paths to ground" (assuming a voltage potential difference between the Hot and Ground, well DUH lol) and the "MOST" CURRENT TAKES THE "LEAST RESISTIVE" PATH.

If you have multiple parallel current paths I = V/R STILL APPLIES, so if there's a path of LEAST resistance MOST current (I = V/R) takes that path, yet current still flows (I = V/R) in the high resistance path also JUST LESS OF IT.

Hope this helps, it was fun sparky chatting with you, have a nice day

John T

Last month lightening took out a pole on my property. For 2 weeks I had the neutral on the ground while the hot wire was tied up with a rope to one of my sycamore trees. No one died.

Good comment Pete, looks like you have a handle on this.

You state "Three phase distribution lines are different"

INDEED YOURE CORRECT as if three phase was configured DELTA it has no Neutral, only the three conductors carry the current, but if its configured Y, it has a Neutral and like in single phase, its probably earth grounded. Every Y system I designed sure was.

I like your statement about returning to the source as some lay people think it returns to mother earth NOT the voltage potential difference is between the phase conductors but it just happens that the Neutral is tied to mother earth for lightning and surge protection and to keep and stabilize the grid at one common low voltage reference MOTHER EARTH. Of course, there exists a potential between HOT and earth in a grounded system as the Neutral is earth grounded YET THE CURRENT STILL RETURNS TO THE SOURCE AS YOU SO WELL STATED.

Great sparky chatting with you, have a good day

John T

Good Neighbor George YOU RASCAL, you asked that on purpose to see how many responses you could get lol I'm sure you already knew the answer, you're pretty sharp on electricity.

WANNA TRY ONE THAT WILL GET EVEN MORE RESPONSES AND DRAW EVERYONE AND THEIR BORTHER IN LAW OUT OF THE WOODWORK INCLUDING MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LOL

Ask "Isnt Ground and Neutral the same thing, after all they are hooked together at the Panel and there's still 120 volts between Hot and Ground OR Neutral and a light will work if hooked to Hot and Ground same as if hooked to Hot and Neutral" HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM lol

Hope to see you soon, take care now Neighbor
Again good post, I think it helped most understand the purpose of the Neutral Grounded Conductor, if not re read my first
post below, then take two aspirins and call me at the office.

John T Too long retired AC Power Distribution Design Engineer and rusty as an old nail especially on the NEC grrrrrrrr

John T

Enjoyed as well, thanks. Now,I'm tired.

John, I know the different. No need, said that in original post. Back before NEC, things were different. Even switching neutral instead of power.

REMC repairman doesn't see wire down as a big deal like others on YT. My place operated fins with wire on ground for two years and no one stold it.

JohnT,
Are you calling me the human agitator in the human cesspool of life? My excuse, I've been around Bill too long. geo.

No dead animals or humans to report. In a remote area. No fish jumping either. Anther time the same wire went down, REMC couldn't get to it because it was flooded. Had to remind them after the flood to put it up. They don't seem to be very concerned. More concerned if wire is missing.

Yep tell our friend Wilson he's to blame lol

John T

Hey George, if you're going to let Gene's comment slide, then I think you ought to forfeit your right to complain about my "critical" replies to your posts. Or at least lighten up a tad.

Last month lightening took out a pole on my property. For 2 weeks I had the neutral on the ground while the hot wire was tied up with a rope to one of my sycamore trees. No one died.

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Glad to hear all is well. Just wondering, who fastened the wire to a tree with rope?

I don't think that is standard procedure for restoration. Normal power poles are usually good conductors to earth due to moisture in the wood and underground, much like a live tree. However, even insulated wires are mounted to poles with insulators to keep the current from leaking to earth. Using only a rope would risk the loss of current- perhaps it was wrapped around an insulating rubber blanket wrapped around the wire?

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT you ranting about? Majority of post on TT have absolutely nothing to do with tractors. Besides your reply proves my point, nothing to do with tractors. Momma always said when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 of your own point back. Someone wants me to call you a critic. I'll give you a break on this one. Go post something ab out your tractor. geo.

Mark, Did I make you happy? Can we be friend? geo

Ah, George. When were we ever NOT friends?

XXOO

Thanks Good friend.

(quoted from post at 08:56:55 07/11/16) You do not need a nutral to have power working. Years ago had gravel delivered in drive and truck evidently when unloading cought the netrual and busted it as it was over a month later when we saw the ends of that wire hanging down in the corn field but we were never without power.

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Well duh, it may work but it isn't right . Why do some people think that because it "works" everything is fine , 100%, ok , perfectly safe and useable.
If you think that flowing neutral current on the ground system is acceptable, you need to get that thought out of your head.

(quoted from post at 09:54:06 07/11/16) Buick, hey we have BOTH tried to explain this here for years but I'm about ready to give up are you lol

John T

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I am beginning to think some people are pig headed , stupid or both .
How Bubba and Billy Bob think they, their Pappy and Grand Pappy know more about electricity that an electrical engineer, techs , licensed journeymen, utility electrical code inspectors and the National Electrical Code. It's an excellent example of arrogance and pride.

Then all utilities should save time and money by eliminating the neutral and just tie live lines to trees.