My thought of practical off grid electric

wilson ind

Well-known Member
All the solar panels and cloudy days , sun tracking and whatever I noticed living in Colorado , Montana rural have not been as
successful as Diesel power. OK just bear with me. Friends with moderate solar just seemed to be moderately satisfied. Most
dependable and economical was Witty diesel with modern brushless alternator. Experience was while providing maintenance on the
Dugout Ranch in remote south east Utah. Those engines ran for years yes years with out any major repair. I took one to agri
shop to demonstrate maintenance. starting and fuel use. We ran a 6 hour test run at rated rpm no load using so much fuel if I
stated the results most would just say it was false. It was less than one gallon. The ranch engines had old brush type
generators of 6 kw capacity . I sold a spare engine to a fellow just west of Rocky Mountain national park to use with new
alternator of 6 kw capacity coupled to a deep discharge battery pack with Invertor . He used AC during high power usage, only
having battery pack as he said for the kids to have AC for TV and lighting. I have not been able to check back lately. However
after 5 years no major maintenance, and was getting years out of batteries. Admittedly this fellow lived far off the so called
grid. He also stated others hoping for pure solar had to use generator mush of the time as snow covering panels and wind caused
high maintenance on the panels . The engines were the easiest hand starting diesels I have ever worked with. To start one
released the compression , cranking very slowly turning the 700 lb flywheels till approximately 30 rpm was obtained one just
stood back and released the compression device. In the coldest weather this might have to be repeated. I did work with one set
having a DC belt driven starter. One still operated the compression release by hand . On the ranch the things often ran 24-7 as
there were several people living on the ranch and ran water for a lot of cattle.
 
I think once all the government money gets out of solar and wind power you will see that neither make much sense dollar wise. Just had an 80 million dollar solar panel plant built here in Tennessee. After completion it never opened as solar panels are now cheaper from china. Plant is now being tore down.
 
What I have often been curious about, how long will diesel keep? If you had to live with no power from electric companies could you still find good fuel a year or more down the road?
 
Look to Europe. Germany is building coal-fired plants. Britain had to fire up their oil-fired plants (which have since been dismantled) during a cold snap with no wind a couple years ago. People are paying a very significant percentage of their income for electric.
 
Our fuel deliveries were several months apart. Filters were changed once a year. All fuel was gravity feed to engine, however fuel intake was 2 inches above tank bottom. This was to not have fuel problems and to have emergency fuel if needed but put in smaller tank after filtering into cans. In four years never used bottom fuel. However bottom was drained (about 5 gallon) couple times a year , used for starting fire for branding and and brush burning. Cowhands often used some off bottom to start bunkhouse stove.
 
A few years ago, with much fanfare there was a solar panel plant opened here. Soon after European governments withdrew subsidies for solar installations. Wasn't very long before factory shut down, leaving many laborers, investors and governments holding the bag. Strongly suspect that as subsidies drop off, the alternative source industries will begin to cave in as well.

My experience has been that home-generated electricity is mighty expensive. Although this was for temporary emergency, limited use. I can't imagine where an individual or even a community could break even with trying to grow their own. As far as off grid is concerned, seems that propane would be the way to go.
 
RayP(MI)- If crude prices increase a little more (NOT holding my breath), I hope to have a well dug on my property and will use the Natural Gas from it to power/heat everything on my place.
 
I think that Diesel fuel can be kept indefinitely with the proper treatment and storage.
Was only a few years ago ( OK maybe 10 or 15) that Arrow engine company was offering the last of the (new) Witte Diesel engines and may still offer replacement parts for Witte Diesels.
 
Bill, were the diesels water cooled? If so, one could use the radiator heat to keep a building warm.

I've always wondered how solar panels will stand up to Indiana straight line winds, hail and snow loads.




Hard to believe it could run so long on a gallon of diesel. No one will believe me when I tell them my generator makes gas. I will run for hours, then I have to remove gas from the tank or it will run on the ground. (Can you beat that?)Joke.

geo
 
(quoted from post at 16:25:18 06/26/16) All the solar panels and cloudy days , sun tracking and whatever I noticed living in Colorado , Montana rural have not been as
successful as Diesel power. OK just bear with me. Friends with moderate solar just seemed to be moderately satisfied. Most
dependable and economical was Witty diesel with modern brushless alternator. Experience was while providing maintenance on the
Dugout Ranch in remote south east Utah. Those engines ran for years yes years with out any major repair. I took one to agri
shop to demonstrate maintenance. starting and fuel use. We ran a 6 hour test run at rated rpm no load using so much fuel if I
stated the results most would just say it was false. It was less than one gallon. The ranch engines had old brush type
generators of 6 kw capacity . I sold a spare engine to a fellow just west of Rocky Mountain national park to use with new
alternator of 6 kw capacity coupled to a deep discharge battery pack with Invertor . He used AC during high power usage, only
having battery pack as he said for the kids to have AC for TV and lighting. I have not been able to check back lately. However
after 5 years no major maintenance, and was getting years out of batteries. Admittedly this fellow lived far off the so called
grid. He also stated others hoping for pure solar had to use generator mush of the time as snow covering panels and wind caused
high maintenance on the panels . The engines were the easiest hand starting diesels I have ever worked with. To start one
released the compression , cranking very slowly turning the 700 lb flywheels till approximately 30 rpm was obtained one just
stood back and released the compression device. In the coldest weather this might have to be repeated. I did work with one set
having a DC belt driven starter. One still operated the compression release by hand . On the ranch the things often ran 24-7 as
there were several people living on the ranch and ran water for a lot of cattle.

Best you can hope for is to be net metering connected to the utility grid with grid tie inverters and solar panels .
Next best is the same system without net metering .Little to no energy bill when the sun shines .
Where there is no utility , LP , wood and diesel for thermal and high demand loads . Solar , batteries and inverters for lights , tv , microwave and maybe the well pump or fridge.
 
Howdy Good Hoosier Neighbor,,,,,,,,,,The last year or so I have been checking out Solar equipment the Odon Amish are selling and using, they generally have like 5 KW of fixed pointed south earth mounted arrays so its easy to keep clean and snow free NOT up on a roof. Of course, there's no utility grid so they use like HUGE HEAVY L 16 Lead Acid Battery banks and 4 to 5 KW Inverters. They use fiberglass channel and angle for mounts so it never rusts. Still Grid Tie is soooooooooo much cheaper as you don't need expensive batteries and inverters BUT if the utility goes down you don't have any stored energy.

Same as I posted before, its an investment and a choice but subject to your local energy costs and installation and maintenance to install a system, if the payback is lets say 7 years ITS DEFINITELY SOMETHING TO CONSIDER as after the payback period you're approaching energy independence yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. However if you don't want the hassle or bother and maintenance and cant afford the initial cost and are satisfied as you are DO NOT BUY A SOLAR ENERGY SYSTEM because you will be an old unsatisfied grouch lol

Those diesels with brushless alternators you speak of sure sound good if youre off the grid.

In the event I sell my farm and go to a smaller more energy efficient home and a few acres you can rest assured I'm choosing to invest in Solar even at my age since I understand it and have done some engineers research AND I ABSOLUTLEY LOVE IT IN MY RV.

Do your homework, crunch the numbers, study and make an informed decision is my best advice ITS NOT FOR EVERYBODY MIND YOU

John T Long retired Electrical Engineer
 
Some time when we get together for bull session will have to tell you about the ranch. Was 30 miles from grid. That time out west was real experience of a lifetime.
 
They just installed a 40 acre solar farm near me. I think they have around 18500 solar panels with moving reflectors to heat liquid. They say it only produces enough electric for about 1/3 of the power usage for a nearby town of 10000 people.
 
Well if they are going into the Utica or the other one that they have been playen in here as of late and you have it written up in the lease that you get FREE UNLIMITED gas then don't hold your breath as the new leases are NOT giving gas to the land owners and just for a FYI they are NOT being paid at this time either and some of the wells that have been brought on line are now shut in and NO gas or oil is flowing . Do not sign a lease till you have a lawyer that knows the gas and oil biz and have what you want in the lease before you sign . Way tomany around here jumped on the band wagon when the dangled the carrot over there heads and sign only to find out that they got hammered and things are NOT as they were told and they did not have the leases looked over by a MOTH PIECE that knows the oil and gas laws . Back when they were going after the Clinton formation i was working in the patch and i got to meet some vary unhappy land owners , back then you got free gas and somuch of the profit . Now on this latest push when they first started comoing in and tryen to lease land they offered 900 bucks to a grand and as they got a foot hold the offers went up so Charlie signed for 900 but Bill his neighbor did not at first and they kept on coming back wanting Bill to sign and offered more each time they came back so one day the land agent come by and says Hey Bill i can now offer ya 3500 and acre if ya sign today and WOW 3500 and acre for 180 acres Maw will be happy as we can now do somethings we want So Bill signs and he get a nice check for 3500 and acre But Clarence on the other side of the fence tell the land agent Nope ain't ha going to sign But the drilling company needs Clarence to sign to complete the drilling unit of 600 acres So they start to hound him to death and then one day they show up and say IF we give you 5700 dollars and acre will you now sign and Clarence signs . So now they have there drilling unit for one well BUT now Charlie gets wind of what his two neighbors got and now he is fuming mad Since he only got 900 and the war begins Plus the fact that they are going to put the well pad on Charlies place and take ten acres of his crop ground . Then here comes the pipe line guys and here we go again.
 
I've got a 19kw Onan power plant that used to belong to the phone company. The four cylinder diesel on it is very fuel efficient. The tank for it is seven gallon and it runs for a long time on a tank. With only 900 hours on it the thing should last many years. The electric here has gotten more reliable in recent years but I still couldn't imagine not having it. There are usually half a dozen times to use it a year with one or more being 24 hours. With this many electric fences I have learned not to sit and wait for the electric to be fixed. It doesn't have an automatic switchover but it isn't a difficult process.

All that being said, I can't imagine using it to generate my own electric power. I think the reason it's no biggie to me is because I don't deal with it frequently.
 
Pre rural electricity in this part of Oz I heard of one bloke that had around 58,000 hours on a Lister gen set.

Most now on rural, which is SWER (single wire earth return)to reduce costs as distances are large. Pilots need to be looking hard too.

More remote is still gen sets. One place I know has a main of 60 kva and a back-up of 40. And a very large fuel tank.

Another had a gen set go wild which fried 15 split air cons, most of the kitchen and various other things. And your friendly electrical repairman isn't just next door either. The tyrany of distance.
 
Hey George if that guy gets even close to 4800.00 wife should have no problem getting 10,000.00 out of her restored 1958. Thanks for the heads up.
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I live off the grid with Solar and generator backup.
The cost of solar 15 years ago was a lot high than it is today. Today the panels and inverters cost less and the efficiency has improved. The batteries are my biggest cost because there cost has more than doubled. But I can get 10 years out them compared to what was available year ago when only got 4-5.
I now have a Lister diesel I run at night for heating and cooling the house. I run it with was motor oil and veggie oil. and it gets 6 hrs to the gallon.
There's a guy in Wash. that builds and sells them and he uses the Lister to power and heat his house and office. The heat from the exhaust and water do the heating. He runs it 24/7.
When hear my neighbors complain about there elec. bills going up 1-2 times every year, I'm still not paying as much.
My irony is I live near the country's largest Nuc plant and there are 3 gas turbine power plant and 3 large solar power plants just a couple miles away.
 
It is not off grid but I have thought about getting a natural gas powered generator and using the waste heat from the exhaust and radiator to heat the house. I am guessing the cost of gas is about 1/5th of electric for the same BTU of energy. So selling the excess electric back on the grid would off set the natural gas bill. I would probably come out ahead. I haven't run the numbers but I live in the country and have natural gas. The gas main between the two neighboring towns runs down my road. Living in Wisconsin means I have a good 7 month heating season. Summer would just be buying back the electricity I sold to the power company during the winter. Has anyone seen this done?
 
I don't quite get the "moderate" solar and owners who are "moderately" satisfied. There is no magic involved with solar. Pretty straight forward and pretty easy to predict exactly what a system will do. I suspect owners who are not satisfied did not do their homework before installing. Those that are "moderately" satisfied only did a "moderate" amount of homework.
 
As an employee of a large electric utility, working at a large, base-load generation facility, I'd like to take this opportunity to encourage you all to [b:b8faba0115]STAY ON THE GRID[/b:b8faba0115]. That is all, thanks.
 
NOT exactly what your speaking of, but my brother just bought this last week. 35,000KW natural gas, Ford 300-6. He used to work for Cummins power Gen working on generators. He used to service this one back in the day. It was no longer being used and was pit in a surplus auction. He is going to use it as backup for his house (and probably half his neighborhood if it was needed lol), but the price was right, $3000. It has 110 hours on it!
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I ran numbers within the last couple years for an off-grid solar and the pay back time exceeded 20 years. This was for a 450kwh/month system. The solar panels themselves were relatively cheap at a little over a dollar a watt. The killer was the battery bank.

Since really you're building a battery powered house that happens to be recharged by solar/wind/generator the number of batteries determines how long you can go with cloudy days or no wind before you fire up the generator to recharge. Every winter we get periods of at least a week at a time when there is no sun. I've kept track. We have long periods of little to no wind and long periods of too much wind.

Part of the trick was figuring how much electricity you use and keeping the battery bank from getting more than 50% discharged (for maximum life). The batteries I looked at were the Rolls-Surette.

Our local utility does not do grid tie. We are on a Co-op and my electric bills have been basically flat for over 10 years. Very hard to justify the cost only to break even in 20 years and that's *assuming* battery cost do not go higher or the EPA flips out over lead-acid batteries.

Also we get hailstorms and apparently solar panels are not that hail resistant. Sure, your homeowner's insurance covers it but how long are you going to be without them while the ins co. is dilly dallying around?
 
(quoted from post at 21:42:05 06/26/16) I think once all the government money gets out of solar and wind power you will see that neither make much sense dollar wise. Just had an 80 million dollar solar panel plant built here in Tennessee. After completion it never opened as solar panels are now cheaper from china. Plant is now being tore down.

The "current occupier" used a lot of our tax money on failed solar enterprises to appease his leftist base. Hopefully these days of crony capitalism are past us. They would have been better to invest in support of domestic fracking operations and extending the internet and power grids to areas where it's currently inadequate.
 
When I was a young man, I worked for a power co. as a lineman. That was in 1953. The newspaper headline,one morning, said: POWER REVOLUTION IN THE MAKING, NO LONGER WILL PEOPLE HAVE TO PAY FOR ELECTRICITY BUT IT WILL BE GENERATED FOR FREE IN THEIR BACK YARD. It continued with the farfetched story about solar energy taking over. Employees became so concerned that the company called in a couple of experts to a meeting of all employees. The experts convinced us that it was a joke and highlighted some of its limitations. The experts convinced me, in 1953 and I haven?t changed my mind.
 

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