Just a what if question however it seems possible. I'm thinking the idea through and think you could run a wood shop with either the belt drive or the pto form a tractor. I saw one many years ago run a lathe off a hit and miss. I think if you were to run the right pulleys off a main shaft that was run off the tractor you could in theory make this happen. Has anyone tried it before? Is there more info some where on the web? I mean a steam tractor can run a sawmill if set up I think a tractor could do the same. I'm no thinking of a big tractor but something small like a cub or an Allis B or a Ford 8n might be the right size. A lot of them out there. You could have a power plant that could do so many other things. They are off grid too well sort of. I think its doable but like I said this is a question so what do you guys think?
- Thread starter ed in cny
- Start date
ed in cny- "The Phillips Brothers all Steam Powered Box Factory, founded in 1897, is family owned and operated and listed in the National Register of Historic places. This mill is believed to be the last fully operational all steam powered mill in America."
I'd guess that if they could do it with the steam power plant you should be able to. But, you may need more HP than an 8n.
Watch the video attached. I find it very interesting.
Poke here
I'd guess that if they could do it with the steam power plant you should be able to. But, you may need more HP than an 8n.
Watch the video attached. I find it very interesting.
Poke here
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
It certainly is doable, I'm sure it has been done many times back in the day...
If you had access to the shafts, belts, pulleys, bearings, an extremely well built building to support such, and a whole lot of time on your hands, it could be done.
But if you had to buy any of it, especially new... No way would it be practical!
If you had access to the shafts, belts, pulleys, bearings, an extremely well built building to support such, and a whole lot of time on your hands, it could be done.
But if you had to buy any of it, especially new... No way would it be practical!
You need to look up 'line shaft.'
Was the way things were done before electricity.
Also need to look up how many one handed/ one armed handymen used to be around. That many unshielded belts running all over the shop......
Also, need to look up the price of electricity and the price of running a gas or Diesel engine for 8 hours.
Sometimes progress is a good thing, and we forget what a good deal electric power is.
But I digress.
You need to look up line shaft, as my Wikipedia link heads to.
I enjoy the disadvantages section they list.....
We actually had a lim shaft in the 24x32 shop when I was a kid. It was run by a electric motor, but it powered a grinder, a sharpener, and a drill press. Dad tore it out, no room left to work with the belts and the shaft down one wall.
Paul
Like shaft
Was the way things were done before electricity.
Also need to look up how many one handed/ one armed handymen used to be around. That many unshielded belts running all over the shop......
Also, need to look up the price of electricity and the price of running a gas or Diesel engine for 8 hours.
Sometimes progress is a good thing, and we forget what a good deal electric power is.
But I digress.
You need to look up line shaft, as my Wikipedia link heads to.
I enjoy the disadvantages section they list.....
We actually had a lim shaft in the 24x32 shop when I was a kid. It was run by a electric motor, but it powered a grinder, a sharpener, and a drill press. Dad tore it out, no room left to work with the belts and the shaft down one wall.
Paul
Like shaft
What you are thinking workd off a line shaft with pullys for each tool. My one friend has the line shaft setup but he has a small engine doing the work, It is set up just outside of the main shop and has electric start at touch of a button. Anouthe has same basically setup but his is a steel working machine shop. Then anouther for power has the rear end of a Moline tractor burried in the dirt and the input shaft to transmission is what powers the shop. But in his case the rear wheel that is laying flat on top of tractor has a long pole fastened to it and when it is turned that powers the shop. Now what powers that pole, a single Belgin draft horse, same horse that does his farm work. These are all Amish so no tractors. Different ones can use the engines tho. But they all run off a line shaft, 2 overhead and one in the floor.
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
One of my old machine shop books has several pages showing how to switch the belt to different steps to change the speed of your lathe.....with everything running of course!
Eldon (WA)
Well-known Member
I'm sure it can be done, but I would run it past OSHA and your insurance co. first. :roll:
OMG! Where's OSHA? This video is fascinating in so many ways. Also its companion video, the planing mill.
The most modern thing in the place is a digital thermostat; all the rest is 19th Century. But it works! And totally self-sustaining. Interesting concept: if your shed is too low for your truck to back under, just cut the top off of the truck and duck. The guitars in the background were a surprise--I was expecting banjos. Invest 20 minutes of your time--you won't regret it.
Even the drone ad that pops up before the video is good.
The most modern thing in the place is a digital thermostat; all the rest is 19th Century. But it works! And totally self-sustaining. Interesting concept: if your shed is too low for your truck to back under, just cut the top off of the truck and duck. The guitars in the background were a surprise--I was expecting banjos. Invest 20 minutes of your time--you won't regret it.
Even the drone ad that pops up before the video is good.
O/T but more line shaft.
The original mechanical sheep shearing gear in Oz was line shaft. The individual shearing gear used a friction drive to the handpiece. The comb and cutter grinder was also belt driven off that shaft. Power was originally steam, then internal combustion (eventually usually diesel). When SWER line electricity became available the shaft drive might have been converted to electric motor drive.
Or if the gear was well used to individual electric motor powered units, still with a friction drive to the handpiece.
The drive to the handpiece was (I think early was flexible shaft) but the ones I know via a 2-piece drive shaft in a steel downtube, with a a moveable angle drive at the back of the handpiece and a second one at the top of the "short gut", about 2 feet up from the handpiece.
The original mechanical sheep shearing gear in Oz was line shaft. The individual shearing gear used a friction drive to the handpiece. The comb and cutter grinder was also belt driven off that shaft. Power was originally steam, then internal combustion (eventually usually diesel). When SWER line electricity became available the shaft drive might have been converted to electric motor drive.
Or if the gear was well used to individual electric motor powered units, still with a friction drive to the handpiece.
The drive to the handpiece was (I think early was flexible shaft) but the ones I know via a 2-piece drive shaft in a steel downtube, with a a moveable angle drive at the back of the handpiece and a second one at the top of the "short gut", about 2 feet up from the handpiece.
gene bender
Well-known Member
Why not early in the history of manufacturing line shafts were used. Go for it. Theres one in Elnora,In built several yrs ago they run lots of machines all powered by a huge water wheel even have a stone mill grinding flour. They have a huge tank up hill with water it runs down to the water wheel and also has a pump that moves the water back up to the tank after passing over the water wheel. Their show is in early Sept neat to see.
gene bender
Well-known Member
Using flat belts doesent bother OSHA
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
I know of a machine shop that operated clear up into the 2000s, driven by overhead belts and eccentrics, powered by one big electric motor.
Shut down and owner retired when his contract with GM expired.
Shut down and owner retired when his contract with GM expired.
You should visit Hanford Mills Museum near Oneonta NY. Sawmill, Gristmill, and Woodshop all run by waterwheel, steam or gas engine. I have been a member for many years. They have an Ice Harvest February 6, 2016 on the millpond with ice fishing, horse drawn sleigh rides, blacksmith, ice sculptures ect..
Hanford Mills website
Hanford Mills website
You might sometime visit Silver Dollar City wood working shop. Overhead rotating drive shafts, big lever-operateid clutches, belts here and there driving big pulley here and there, the most extremely cool building shop you ever saw. Might not be practidal, but sure is fun to watch.
farmerwithmutt
Well-known Member
The Amish in my area use hydraulic or air to transfer power. If I had a choice hydraulic would be the way to go. Take the engine use that to drive the pump run lines in and use valves to control speed. An example would be skid loader or log splitter. One thing the Amish look for is a combine with hydrostatic drive that way they get the motor and pump together and ready to go.
gtractorfan
Well-known Member
Amish still do that.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
You would have a difficult time finding old woodworking machinery that would run off of a flat belt. An even harder time trying to figure out how to get the rpm right on each machine. This was done a long time ago. The would run a shaft across the ceiling through the shop and run a flat belt down to each machine however at the time they used a steam engine. It would probably be easier to have the PTO power a electric generator to power the shop. I bet the electric company can provide electricity cheaper.
gene bender
Well-known Member
Its easy to make pulleys for flat belts just get some wood and away you go
Richard G.
Well-known Member
Of course it can be done. My WWI Monarch lathe was driven from an overhead shaft as well as my 100+ year old drill press. Each has an electric motor pulling the shaft now.
During WWII, the local flour mill ran everything in the building with 2 M Farmalls. One of the owners told me years ago that the 2 M's sat outside under a shed and pulled an overhead shaft with flat belts.
The tractors sat there rocking a bit and the wheels would settle into the ground from the rocking as the belts stretched.
The only time the tractors were shut down was to change oil or rebuild the engines.
The mill had defense contracts to produce flour.
When one of Henry Ford's plants had a power outage, he pulled in 2 Fordson tractors to pull the plant with belts going up to the shafting.
During WWII, the local flour mill ran everything in the building with 2 M Farmalls. One of the owners told me years ago that the 2 M's sat outside under a shed and pulled an overhead shaft with flat belts.
The tractors sat there rocking a bit and the wheels would settle into the ground from the rocking as the belts stretched.
The only time the tractors were shut down was to change oil or rebuild the engines.
The mill had defense contracts to produce flour.
When one of Henry Ford's plants had a power outage, he pulled in 2 Fordson tractors to pull the plant with belts going up to the shafting.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
Yes you can make a pulley but how to you make the transition from a self contained electric motor to a flat belt on a tilting arbor table saw.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
Anything is possible. Could run the shop off a water wheel too. The better question is how much will it cost you to run shop off pto or belt? Second question is why would you want to?
My dad had a 4 ft belsaw saw mill he ran off a case tractor and flat belt. Tractor drank fuel. My dad wired up two electric motors to power mill, saved money and motors did a better job of keeping the speed of the blade constant.
Electricity is a very cheap source of energy, period. The more I use electricity, the cheaper it is per kw-hr, around $0.10. You can't generate it any cheaper than you can buy it. I ESTIMATE my generator might deliver 5 kw-hr/gallon of gas, about $0.50 worth of electricity/gallon. How much energy can your generator make per gallon?
My dad had a 4 ft belsaw saw mill he ran off a case tractor and flat belt. Tractor drank fuel. My dad wired up two electric motors to power mill, saved money and motors did a better job of keeping the speed of the blade constant.
Electricity is a very cheap source of energy, period. The more I use electricity, the cheaper it is per kw-hr, around $0.10. You can't generate it any cheaper than you can buy it. I ESTIMATE my generator might deliver 5 kw-hr/gallon of gas, about $0.50 worth of electricity/gallon. How much energy can your generator make per gallon?
Bret, don't waste your time trying to explain it to the experts. E. Yoder makes parts for my tractors in his diesel engine driven shaft drive machine shop and his son Sam can not keep up with the orders for his hand made kitchen cabinets made in his shop powered by the same set-up.
Hoenes
Member
Paul, you mentioned old timers missing body parts. When I first started the trade, I worked in a wood mill/cabinet shop with an overhead line shaft still in use. I don't know if it was all the open belts, or some of the widowmaker machines still left around, but a couple of old guys had 2 or 3 fingers left on each hand!
Yes.
I have a 10hp 3phase electric planer that will run off my Dearborn cordwood drive and Ford 8N.
Set it up 10 years ago maybe longer. Don't use it anymore. Has a 26" wide planing capacity. I wanted one my kids to convert an old flat head engine to a wood gasification engine and run the planer for their senior project. One kid left that might still be interested. They have CNC's,CAM,CAD stations at the high school and this project may be to old school.
I see belt driven equipment in barns quite a bit. Molders,planers and resaws. Purchase price would be in the $100's not $10,000's. I'd go that route if I had infinite space, need,time,etc.
I have a 10hp 3phase electric planer that will run off my Dearborn cordwood drive and Ford 8N.
Set it up 10 years ago maybe longer. Don't use it anymore. Has a 26" wide planing capacity. I wanted one my kids to convert an old flat head engine to a wood gasification engine and run the planer for their senior project. One kid left that might still be interested. They have CNC's,CAM,CAD stations at the high school and this project may be to old school.
I see belt driven equipment in barns quite a bit. Molders,planers and resaws. Purchase price would be in the $100's not $10,000's. I'd go that route if I had infinite space, need,time,etc.
Several have said it. The Amish do this all the time. Usually powered by a Honda or some other smallish engine outside the main building. I have seen one set up like this. Ran the powershaft in a trench/gutter. He has several machines set up to run off the shaft. Never had the opportunity to look at the specifics of how it works as it would involve pulling up boards covering the shaft. Just saw slots where the Vbelts come up through the floor.
I get a catalog (Andy Weaver I think) that has a ad for Georgetown Hydraulics and they sell clutches for just this purpose.
jt
I get a catalog (Andy Weaver I think) that has a ad for Georgetown Hydraulics and they sell clutches for just this purpose.
jt
wilson ind
Well-known Member
Are you close to Elnora? Maybe we all could meet up at one of the fine Amish restaurants.restaurants. What about it southern Ind folks? George in Terre Haute could demo the latest in weird science!!!!!!!
Dave H (MI)
Well-known Member
That's a really interesting question ed! Of course it can be done and you have already been told that. What surprises me is the number of people here, on an antique tractor forum, who have asked you "why"! I run as many things as I can using out of date and old fashioned methods...just because I can. It interests me. When asked why he wanted to climb Everest, Mallory simply said "because it is there."
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
That was my initial point that the machinery would be hard to find. Then the 19th century saws the arbor remained stationary and the top of the saw tilted. I wonder how many folks would like to miter a board with the top of the saw on a 45 degree angle.
caterpillar guy
Well-known Member
Yes It can be done. There is a sawmill near me that has the main saw, and some other pieces that run off the engine. It is an old Caterpillar engine with the flat belt on it. He has the whole main mill run from there, and the controls for the head blocks, and such are hydraulically operated.
There used to be a machine shop in town that ran on an overhead shaft with belts down to the machines. I think he had 2 main shafts with 2 rows of equipment. It went away with his retirement.
You will not be as happy with the small engines running things like a sawmill blades as they take power to run. The guy I spoke of earlier here used to have an old IHC pickup engine to run the mill. He later got the Big Caterpillar engine. It is like a D-7 equivalent. I do know he can saw faster with the bigger engine.The pickup engine would pull down some when he was trying to push it a bit. The Cat just cracks the governor open some.
If you're wanting to do this seriously I would use an electric set up run on a generator. You would then be only limited by the capacity of the generator. It would allow you to use much newer equipment with more parts availability.
There used to be a machine shop in town that ran on an overhead shaft with belts down to the machines. I think he had 2 main shafts with 2 rows of equipment. It went away with his retirement.
You will not be as happy with the small engines running things like a sawmill blades as they take power to run. The guy I spoke of earlier here used to have an old IHC pickup engine to run the mill. He later got the Big Caterpillar engine. It is like a D-7 equivalent. I do know he can saw faster with the bigger engine.The pickup engine would pull down some when he was trying to push it a bit. The Cat just cracks the governor open some.
If you're wanting to do this seriously I would use an electric set up run on a generator. You would then be only limited by the capacity of the generator. It would allow you to use much newer equipment with more parts availability.
Thanks guys for the comments. Yes I believe it's possible to do something like this. Is it practical well that's another discussion. Just looking through YouTube and found this video of a shop with a Novo hit a miss running it. The idea is what I envisioned someone would be doing.
Been meaning to get out to Hanford Mill for some time now. Maybe this is the year. Fly creek cider mill in Fly creek NY runs their equipment with a Waterloo boy stationary engine. Looks like someone just put a Waterloo tractor in there without the frame on it. Cool to see run. New Hope mill in NY ran their mill for many years with a water wheel. It ran the grinding equipment and as well as the packing equipment. They have since move to a more modern facility to keep up with production. I remember as a kid being way down in the bottom of the mill there was a stationary engine they used when the mill pond was low. Can't tell you what it was but it was big. I wondered how they ever got it down there.
So it clearly is doable but practical it may not be. Thanks guys for the input.
Metal shop run with hit and miss engine
Been meaning to get out to Hanford Mill for some time now. Maybe this is the year. Fly creek cider mill in Fly creek NY runs their equipment with a Waterloo boy stationary engine. Looks like someone just put a Waterloo tractor in there without the frame on it. Cool to see run. New Hope mill in NY ran their mill for many years with a water wheel. It ran the grinding equipment and as well as the packing equipment. They have since move to a more modern facility to keep up with production. I remember as a kid being way down in the bottom of the mill there was a stationary engine they used when the mill pond was low. Can't tell you what it was but it was big. I wondered how they ever got it down there.
So it clearly is doable but practical it may not be. Thanks guys for the input.
Metal shop run with hit and miss engine
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Notice the dog had no tail.
You think the scrappers decimated the old tractor market, wait'll you see what they did with the machine remnants of the industrial revolution.
Virtually every mill, machine shop, and factory were run with flat belts. Some of that got motorized, but most of it just died in place, the shops left to rot, the stuff was too heavy to make it worth the effort to move it - until finally scrappers came in and melted it all down.
You can still make some lucky finds out there, but it'll make you sick to think of the mountains of machinery you could've had for free if you just willing to move it for somebody, even just 20 years ago.
I had a friend who used to clean out old factory buildings. Sometimes they'd just open up a wall and push the stuff out with a fork lift, fourth or fifth floor, didn't matter. Milling machines, lathes, you name it. Stuff you'd give your right arm for. Didn't matter. Old machines don't make money - apartments in old factories make money.
But, another guy I know found an old abandoned machine shop. The stuff is still out there if you look long enough and have some luck. He bought the whole shop - and is now doing exactly what you want to do. He moved all the equipment to his own place, and set up a whole pulley system. He runs it with something a little more modern, but no reason an old tractor wouldn't work.
I'm jealous of him of course. But, keep in mind there is some danger involved with that old equipment. It's not all sunshine and roses. Not a bad idea to always have somebody with you when you're working - just in case. Back when it was in use, broken employees were very easy to replace, you may not be.
Virtually every mill, machine shop, and factory were run with flat belts. Some of that got motorized, but most of it just died in place, the shops left to rot, the stuff was too heavy to make it worth the effort to move it - until finally scrappers came in and melted it all down.
You can still make some lucky finds out there, but it'll make you sick to think of the mountains of machinery you could've had for free if you just willing to move it for somebody, even just 20 years ago.
I had a friend who used to clean out old factory buildings. Sometimes they'd just open up a wall and push the stuff out with a fork lift, fourth or fifth floor, didn't matter. Milling machines, lathes, you name it. Stuff you'd give your right arm for. Didn't matter. Old machines don't make money - apartments in old factories make money.
But, another guy I know found an old abandoned machine shop. The stuff is still out there if you look long enough and have some luck. He bought the whole shop - and is now doing exactly what you want to do. He moved all the equipment to his own place, and set up a whole pulley system. He runs it with something a little more modern, but no reason an old tractor wouldn't work.
I'm jealous of him of course. But, keep in mind there is some danger involved with that old equipment. It's not all sunshine and roses. Not a bad idea to always have somebody with you when you're working - just in case. Back when it was in use, broken employees were very easy to replace, you may not be.
My dads mill had a UD 18 power unit that ran the headsaw, sawdust blower, edger, cutoff saw, and firewood conveyor. V-belts to the mandrel and blower the rest flatbelts. I have a mill powered with a Minneapolis Moline THD-800 power unit, that is what got me started collecting old tractors, mostly MM.
Exactly. My air compressor wears a 5hp motor off a Brand new Grizzly 12" table saw. The Amish buy new equipment, take off the electric motor and add a pulley tot he line shaft using Vee belts. Then they sell the motor to the local electric shop. $50.00 for a brand new 5hp motor? Can't beat it with a stick!
Using a tilting table saw takes little getting used to, but with a decent fence the learning curve is about 4.7 seconds. Really, it's not a big deal.
Problem with that is on the new tools like that they are direct drive meaning the blade is mounted directly to motor shaft. To do that they have to make up a shaft for pully and blade and make a mount to mount a pair of pillow block bearings in there so you do have a place to hook up the belt. I don't know if there is any company still building belt drive power tools but there is still a market for them. I have paid more for older used belt drive tools for the Amish than a brand new direct drive would cost.
There are certainly companies building belt driven equipment. Here's a link to a 10" belt driven Grizzly table saw, in one pic you can clearly see the motor is mounted well underneath the saw mandrel. http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691
I helped an Amish friend set up a Grizzly band saw, a big planer that was either Powermatic or Jet and a couple other large woodworking machines, all brand new. Shaper and a real big jointer IIRC. Everything was run to the line shaft running under the floor. Every tool had a clutch of some sort, I never actually saw them. He cut 8" thick white oak with the band saw for me and you'da thunk it was soft pine!
It's not a matter of efficiency George. It's a matter of not going past a certain point where they've, well......."gone over to the dark side of the force" is pretty close in the modern parlance. The Bishops decide what and how far they can go in their church, which is to say, their district or group. Up here they can only use 2 cell flashlights for instance and can only use compressed air for spraying finishes. Can't run air motors or use hydraulics. Other churches in other areas can and some can use other things besides those. It's part of trying to stay at a level of modernity that doesn't let them get so "big" that they don't have jobs for the kids or neighbors, so that they don't need the farm and neighbors and community to survive. It's not about doing it hard way because they want to, but because it keeps them humble, more or less.
I don't agree with everything they do, or how they do it, but I can admire that they stick to their guns when it would be sooooooooo much easier to just give in and go "English".
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