OT Chinese Quality

jimg.allentown

Well-known Member
I sure don't intend to defend the Chinese, BUT........
They seem to be getting a bad rap that they may not deserve.
First, look at some of their accomplishments. Besides the Great Wall, they have managed to become a nuclear power in spite of getting no help from outside their country. They have put men in space. They have become a world power - one to be reckoned with.
What does it take to become a nuclear power? Well, first the ability to refine radioactive materials to separate the useful stuff from the useless stuff. This requires some pretty precision equipment. Things like centrifuges, cyclotrons, and the precision machinery to produce such equipment.
Due to the nature of the government, they can produce consumer goods on a tremendous scale. After all, with 1.2 BILLION people, the competition for jobs must be fierce. They have also managed to feed themselves for centuries without outside help, unlike certain other world powers - like the USSR.

So, while they get cursed and criticized, they are still a major force in OUR economy. I suspect that they can make as good of a product as any other country in the world. The "junk" that they sell here is only junk because the people ordering the goods are asking for it that way - cheap and dirty!! For all we know, they are being supplied with drawings, materials, and tooling to produce poor quality goods - as long as they are CHEAP!!!

Seems we had something similar happen with the Japanese. We occupied them for a time after WWII. We rebuilt their industries. We taught them how to make consumer goods. I remember as a teenager hearing the same sort of criticism about the Japanese that we now hear about the Chinese. So, now take a look outside. On the highway, easily 1 in 3 automobiles is a Japanese make. We are heading the same way with the Chinese.

As a side note, the tools that are coming out of China these days are way better than the junk that came out of Japan in the 1960s and into the 1970s. They continue to improve. Some of the sockets and wrenches that I have from HF are every bit as good as a Craftsman. Not up to a Snap-on or Mac, but a reasonable second. If we don't keep alert, the "land of almost right" will be the one calling that to US!!!!
 
The biggest problem the Chinese have with their industry is corruption within the government. Just about anything can be overlooked as long as the right palms are greased. But they definitely have the potential to produce goods with quality rivalling those of any country. Clean up their government and they will eat us for lunch.
 
That was once said of Japan up till Dec. 7 or 1941. Japan was doing the same thing as China has been doing and in 1941 Japan threw it all back at us. Could well happen again
 
They have also managed to feed themselves for centuries without outside help, unlike certain other world powers - like the USSR.

I am with you on all but this part, we ship a lot of corn, beans and dairy products there way! I think that is going to change very soon as I understand the Chinese are working on growing there own, and when they do, expect the US to be in big trouble, the Fonterra is already seeing the affects of it!
 
I own a LOT of chinese tools and honestly I virtually never have ANY issues with them.

Still prefer to buy American when it makes sense and is a feasible option, but I hate to say it, we're not the only people on the planet with brains...
 
I also have no issue with tools made there. I do have issues with pipe fittings, tractor components, wear arts, tires (some) and appliances. They are inexpensive because of poor tooling, labor reasons, and that QA is not practiced. Jim
 
There are, and can be, quality products made in China. The problem is that the people placing the orders are usually looking to get them as cheaply as possible. Most Americans feed that demand by buying the cheapest items they can. This why businesses like NAPA auto parts who had a good reputation now sell the same garbage as their competitors. I try to buy quality whenever possible, regardless of origin.
 
I try to avoid buying any foreign tools. But sometimes it can't be helped.

1. You can't find an equivilent tool or item made in the US.

2. The price factor cant be ignored.

But, I have the opportunity to travel most of the state. I stop in at every flea market, yard sale and junk shop I see. I buy up any US made tool, knife, etc. I think I can use.

US stuff is just better, especially the old stuff.

Gene
 
I agree. So much has to do with whomever is importing on this end. Are the specs set to a price point or a quality point? What sort of QC inspections are being done? The Chinese have the _capability_ to produce quality it's just hard to sort through the BS and find which things are good. Lot of state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities have been built there over the last 10 years.
 
I remember the tin objects, especially toys, that came from Japan. Folks refused to buy them as the toys didn't last very long (like most plastic toys of today). Can't remember all the other items, although I do remember seeing them at the neighbors.

I wondered at the time if we were doing the right thing when we rebuilt Japan and Germany at the U.S. taxpayer's expense. I guess the days of fighting a war and making the loser pay for it are long gone. It used to be that "The spoils belong to the victor". Now we engage in police actions that cost us way too many taxpayer dollars and we never win the war. Just saying.
 
It's not so much that the consumer chooses to buy Chinese stuff, but they mostly have no choice as companies take it off shore.
 
Gee, I wonder, did they get the corrupt Government from us too, or did we out source that to them as well. WE have enough of that to supply the world.
 
They still all our secrets with computer hacking, & we gladly watch as our country gets weaker & weaker.
 
I believe in free trade... but fair trade.

The fact is they steal our ideas and formulas, ignore patents, do not pay royalties on any copywrited intellectual properties, manipulate their currency and hack our computers to steal our ideas and information.

Then they treat their people like slaves, pollute the air and oceans, and bully their neighbors.

Other than being cheats, crooks and liars they are fine fellars.
 
Do you really think China accomplished all that nuclear stuff on their own without help from Russia? North Korea too?
 
I have not found anything that has come from China to be even close to being good, any one who is liking the China tools are really not using tools much, they are made from the same stuff Licorice is made from,, the electric motors last but a few times of use...the tractors are pure crapp...and try to get parts for them...No I don't agree with China being great or even good, they have stolen ideas and technology from every one on the planet, and they can care less about exporting anything near good. They are far from a free country and there is no personal desire in their people to do better....
 
Many years ago I was flying someplace, sitting next to a guy who imported-exported, and in those says Taiwan was the place, and they were shipping us lots of cr#p. I commented on it. He said, Oh, they just ship us the cr#p becusae they know we'll buy it. They make precision highest-quality machinery, but we get lots of the cheap shipped over here just becuase we'll accept it.
 
I too remember when made in Japan meant junk. Then Japan showed the US how to make a better motorcycle and cars.

I don't like some things made in China, but I usually don't have a choice. Try buying a drill press made in the US.

Try buying anything made in the US, like a car. Assembled in US with parts from all over the world.

I purchased parts to rebuild the hyd pump on Jubilee, parts came from all over the world.

I drive through town and see many empty lots where years ago there were factories. Many factors why the good jobs moved out of town. We can't give China all the blame. We need to look in the mirror see what we are doing wrong causing factories to move or go out of business.

If you think you can make something better than what's made in China, then why don't you build it in the US, bring jobs back?
 
"The "junk" that they sell here is only junk because the people ordering the goods are asking for it that way - "

That's exactly right! The only reason Chinese products are here is because American companies have them sent here! They have them sent here only because people buy them.

So the quality products sit on the shelf, don't get bought because the cheap item next to it sells. The store selling the good stuff gets a bad rap for high prices, forced out of business. The store selling junk prospers...

Then add to the problem, our own government meddling, EPA rules, taxes, lawsuits... Why wouldn't a company want to escape to a foreign land to avoid bankruptcy?

But there is a large factor of greed involved. That company could have the same or better quality product produced overseas, but back to the original problem, the good stuff sits on the shelf, while the cheep junk sells...
 
I believe the statement they made at the beginning of this administration was In 10-15 years the USA wont be able to pay their military and we will walk in and take over. The US people are paying them to do just that.
 
(quoted from post at 05:50:35 09/29/15) "The "junk" that they sell here is only junk because the people ordering the goods are asking for it that way - "

That's exactly right! The only reason Chinese products are here is because American companies have them sent here! They have them sent here only because people buy them.

So the quality products sit on the shelf, don't get bought because the cheap item next to it sells. The store selling the good stuff gets a bad rap for high prices, forced out of business. The store selling junk prospers...

Then add to the problem, our own government meddling, EPA rules, taxes, lawsuits... Why wouldn't a company want to escape to a foreign land to avoid bankruptcy?

But there is a large factor of greed involved. That company could have the same or better quality product produced overseas, but back to the original problem, the good stuff sits on the shelf, while the cheep junk sells...

It's cheap labor. Government, EPA, taxes are minimal. Back in the 90's, the Chinese were paying folks literally pennies per hour. That has changed, and now Mexico is the cheap place. The minimum wage in Mexico is $5 per day.
 
Lots of things to consider in regards to this, but they certainly can manufacture goods that adhere or comply with reference standards. Many here buy tractor tire chains from tirechains.com, myself included, they are made in china, but the supplier states that the steel is hardened per an ASTM standard or designation, and the chains are not cheap by any means, and they do perform just fine. We certainly developed many of the standards, and they certainly have been making cheap knock offs for years.

An old example is the M14 rifle tooling from springfield armory, no one wants their civilian version of that rifle, its definitely a knock off.
 
Sorry, but they did NOT "show us how to build a better car or motorcycle!" WE showed THEM how to make cars and motorcycles. They took OUR inventions and mostly COPIED.

As you may recall, early Japanese imports were of extremely low quality and workmanship. It was W. Edward Deming going to Japan to "straighten out" their mess of industry and teach them about quality control and consistency that finally got them on the right path. If not for that, they might still be making the same kind of junk that they were making previously.

A side note - having been repairing cars since I was a teenager, I have made a few observations. Among those are the following:
1) Japanese engines rely on precision for their longevity. Components are smaller and more "delicate." They seem to last longer because of precision. When others specify a tolerance of a few thousandths of a millimeter, the Japanese insist on ten-thousandths on the same part. When I worked in industry, it was considered "too expensive" to maintain tolerances tighter than what was minimally required. Another thing is de-burring. While you will not find sharp edges or burrs in a Japanese engine, it is a well known fact that "Chevies have sharp edges."

We taught them. They took it to a higher level.
 
My take on Chinese tools is this:
I have been doing mechanical work since I was a teenager. I have used a LOT of tools. I have a large assortment of tools from all over. I have Craftsman, Snap-On, Mac, Matco, Cornwell, Bonney, and probably a few others. When Harbor Freight opened a store in my area, I was naturally curious about their products. I found that they had a large assortment of sockets and wrenches that seemed to fit some of my needs.
Since I do go to junkyards from time to time, I also occasionally lose a tool or two. For that reason, I bought some of the HF tools for that purpose. After all, I would rather lose a Chinese tool that cost only a little rather than a Snap-On tool that costs a LOT to replace. So far, I have not broken a Chinese socket or wrench. I have broken a few Snap-On sockets. I have also broken a few Craftsman sockets. I DID wear out a couple of HF ratchets, which they replaced immediately with no questions asked.

So, please do not say that I don't know much about tools. I made my living with them for many years.
 
ever go head to head with a bean-counter in a factory setting?
you'll lose
even if you get engineering on your side, they'll get a engineering
permit/exemption to run it anyway.
The bean-counters are running the specs, workers in any setting build it like specified.

just natural for us I suppose, but we sometimes think of labor over there as another planet, aliens or something.
nope, just people.
if I can build it right, so can they...and they will as they get better.
not to worry, history is always a circle, they will be the new power, we will go third world...then it will be cheaper to build here...and work will come back...and so on......
 
don't give them too much credit ,,. if you wanna argue with me just go live with them , it wont be much of a life , just a existence ,,veitnam ,korea , japan , my family had to fight them all,. and will not ever trust them , or UNDER Estimate what they are capable of ,2 faced double crossers , No Ethics , no value of human life . , bean counters that nnalert engineers ought to be sent there to live also ,.accountants have no soul ///// it angers me when all I can find for a grinder wheel is made in the Asian toilet rim,.pressure washers battery chargers that only last one season , you just as well run over them with a bull dozer,. not to mention the fire hazards that our wives buy from the Walmart that are tikin time bombs ready to ignite the house ,,. btw ,, remember the story of Chinese dry wall that had toxic waste chemicals throu out the gypsum that was shipped to the us ,, their plastics they ship here could easily be laced withtoxic waste . even poison baby formula,. nope, not for me ,dangerous culture , stay away America
 
Somewhere out there are a bunch of Vietnamese, Koreans and Chinese saying the EXACT same thing about the US.
 
Actually the Polytech versions of the M14 are very sought after and are generally well thought of. Especially with their price - usually around $800 now.




http://www.savvysurvivor.com/polytech_m14_rifle.htm
 
Japanese products don't "seem" to last longer because of precision parts - they do last longer. The US never built a decent motorcycle until the late 1980s and even then they were only as good as what the Japanese were selling to the US in the 1960s. Today Harley likes to brag about their quality - but they only compare it to what they used to build - the last thing they want to do is compare their Road Glide to a Gold Wing, there isn't any.

At least HD can boast that 85% of the bikes they have made are still on the road.

But the other 15% made it home.
 
maybe , but they are liars and swindlers, and YOU would not want to live with them ,..if they are still alive ..
 

We're only cutting our own throats when we buy anything made anywhere other than the U.S.A. People are always complaining that there are no good jobs left here. That's because the American consumer is willing to buy cheap no matter what it is. Now our markets are flooded with cheap foreign products, and the people buying it are complaining that they cant find a good paying job.
 
I'm on my 8th year living in China (Guangzhou), I've done almost 5 years of qc here as well as other projects.
So, if anyone has any specific questions I'd be more than happy to reply.
 
True a lot of them where killed by the communist when the Americans that said they had their back turned tail and ran. Now the US wonders why no one wants to fight on their side.
 
I use alot of foreign tools because I can not justify paying snapon price for tools to use on the farm I would like to be able to have some but I can't see how to make a 50 dollar 9/16 wrench do what my 200$ set of John Deere will do .
 
Our govt isn't nearly as corrupt as you seem to think. Go to just about anyplace other than USA, Canada or Europe and our govt comes out smelling like a rose.
 
(quoted from post at 11:17:29 09/29/15)
We're only cutting our own throats when we buy anything made anywhere other than the U.S.A. People are always complaining that there are no good jobs left here. That's because the American consumer is willing to buy cheap no matter what it is. Now our markets are flooded with cheap foreign products, and the people buying it are complaining that they cant find a good paying job.

BS on your first sentence. Americans could not manufacture a tin can without foreign help.

My son in law and daughter are both 'skilled' workers who help make 737 fuselages here in Wichita at Spirit Aero, but no way could they compete with the Chinese. They crank out 52 737 fuselages per month and ship them to Seattle on train cars. However, all the precision large equipment that does the drilling, riveting, and twisting/tweaking for alignment is made in Germany. There is a staff of German engineers onsite who do not even bother to learn English as they have no need to converse with any Americans there. because to them the Americans are irrelevant. The 'skilled' Americans, including my family, are pretty much button pushers and caulking gun operators.
 
(quoted from post at 18:46:40 09/29/15)
(quoted from post at 11:17:29 09/29/15)
We're only cutting our own throats when we buy anything made anywhere other than the U.S.A. People are always complaining that there are no good jobs left here. That's because the American consumer is willing to buy cheap no matter what it is. Now our markets are flooded with cheap foreign products, and the people buying it are complaining that they cant find a good paying job.

BS on your first sentence. Americans could not manufacture a tin can without foreign help.

My son in law and daughter are both 'skilled' workers who help make 737 fuselages here in Wichita at Spirit Aero, but no way could they compete with the Chinese. They crank out 52 737 fuselages per month and ship them to Seattle on train cars. However, all the precision large equipment that does the drilling, riveting, and twisting/tweaking for alignment is made in Germany. There is a staff of German engineers onsite who do not even bother to learn English as they have no need to converse with any Americans there. because to them the Americans are irrelevant. The 'skilled' Americans, including my family, are pretty much button pushers and caulking gun operators.

I can't believe an American can say that about United States manufacturing. All you need to do is look at the machines that were built in the past, and not that long ago either. This country had a skilled work force until the government signed NAFTA and the fair trade agreement. As soon as that happened corporations pulled the jobs out from under their feet and left them high and dry. Then the same corporations sold, what Americans used to make, back to the very people who used to make those products.

Okay, lets say that it's cheaper to by our food from foreign countries, because we all know it's cheaper. How long do you think agriculture will last in this country?
 
(reply to post at 14:50:37 09/29/15)

Oh I am with you all the way that we used to be the king - but it is now gone and USA is just another third world country with a third world "leader." "We" (not you and I - maybe should say "they") gave it all up in the name of environmentalism and liberalism. And they didn't even have to fire a shot. I feel bad for my children as they have to live this socialist nightmare knowing from their childhood that this used to be a great county with freedom and opportunity. I do not worry about my grandchildren as they will be raised to think this weirdness is normal so they wont miss what they never had.
 
AS far a government corruption goes our politicians could learn a great deal from China and a lot of other nations. WE have absolutely noting on them. There, like with Mexico corruption has gone on for centuries. Anyone remember the heck that was raised about Wal Mart paying bribes to build a store in Mexico? That's the only way anyone gets anything done there. Thing is in China you can be executed for it. Yet they still do it.

As far as quality goes put 2 like items on a store shelf side by side. One cheaply made and priced accordingly and the other high quality with a price reflecting that and the average consumer will grab the cheap item every time. If everyone demanded quality goods the companies would provide quality goods. As long as we, the consumer, buy by price point we are going to get exactly what we want, an item that's inexpensive and most likely poorly made.

Rick
 
I can't believe an American can say that about United States manufacturing. All you need to do is look at the machines that were built in the past, and not that long ago either. This country had a skilled work force until the government signed NAFTA and the fair trade agreement. As soon as that happened corporations pulled the jobs out from under their feet and left them high and dry. Then the same corporations sold, what Americans used to make, back to the very people who used to make those products.

Okay, lets say that it's cheaper to by our food from foreign countries, because we all know it's cheaper. How long do you think agriculture will last in this country?

Very true. We are a big enough country we COULD make anything we put our minds too. By moving our jobs out, the skills and equipment have been lost. Rather than bringing up skilled people, we've encouraged everyone to become paper-filers and meeting attendees. I'm a white-collar worker by day myself, but I won't stay employed if we don't have skilled employees.

The company I work for moved about a third of our production to China. Technically it's cheaper. What's biting us now is when China ships us product that's wrong. Even though they will replenish, we miss ship dates which means we get charge-backs. Or when they decide to shut down a port to inspect ships for whatever reason. Or the mislabel hundreds of thousands of items. The problem now is we are between a rock and a hard place. What should have been spent on our own machinery has been spent on fines to our customers for being late and/or incorrect. Not sure what's going to happen in the long run, but we aren't the only one's in this position.
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:07 09/29/15) Our govt isn't nearly as corrupt as you seem to think. Go to just about anyplace other than USA, Canada or Europe and our govt comes out smelling like a rose.

I just finished reading the National Geographic article on the Congo. Incredible how the country has regressed. Corruption is king there, nothing happens honestly.
 
(quoted from post at 21:03:34 09/29/15)
(reply to post at 14:50:37 09/29/15)

Oh I am with you all the way that we used to be the king - but it is now gone and USA is just another third world country with a third world "leader." "We" (not you and I - maybe should say "they") gave it all up in the name of environmentalism and liberalism. And they didn't even have to fire a shot. I feel bad for my children as they have to live this socialist nightmare knowing from their childhood that this used to be a great county with freedom and opportunity. I do not worry about my grandchildren as they will be raised to think this weirdness is normal so they wont miss what they never had.

It's not entirely fair to blame the liberals for our jobs being sent over seas. The bill was drafted by George H. Bush, and then signed into law by Clinton. How Clinton was talked into signing that pos legislation is beyond me. Ross Perot warned us about a loud sucking sound Americans would hear after NAFTA was signed. He said it would be all our money pouring out of the country. You know, he was right.
 
(quoted from post at 07:52:31 09/29/15)
At least HD can boast that 85% of the bikes they have made are still on the road..

They like that percentage but dont like to tell you what percentage of the components used to make thos bikes is imported.

I love my Hondas and expect my BSA to need an occasional ride home.
 
There's top quality and then there's the rest. I could buy a $10 toaster, a $50 toaster or a $100 toaster. I would expect the $100 toaster to last as long as I wanted and the $50 toaster to be no better than the $10 toaster as they 'justify' the price by putting some cheap frills on it. So I buy the $10 toaster because I hope that two or three of them will last as long as I need and that's what I can afford or am willing to spend on it. Why spend $50 for a piece of junk when I can get one for $10?
 
(quoted from post at 13:56:29 09/30/15) There's top quality and then there's the rest. I could buy a $10 toaster, a $50 toaster or a $100 toaster. I would expect the $100 toaster to last as long as I wanted and the $50 toaster to be no better than the $10 toaster as they 'justify' the price by putting some cheap frills on it. So I buy the $10 toaster because I hope that two or three of them will last as long as I need and that's what I can afford or am willing to spend on it. Why spend $50 for a piece of junk when I can get one for $10?

That's fine, as long as it's American junk. I'd rather buy American junk than from another country. At least the $10.00's will be kept in this country supporting American families.
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top