Underground water pipe Trouble ! Need Help

Long story ahead ! I have had a water line out to my barn that froze 2 years in a row, and it has had a leak for a number of years before that, we used to just shut the water off when not needed. The flow was slowing down as the leak seemed to get worse. So I decided it was time to fix it, rented an excavator and dug up the wet spot that would show up. I found a rust hole in the 1 inch pipe the size of a pencil. Directly under this spot were several volleyball size rocks. The pipe in this spot was pushed up towards the surface and kinked til it was was only 3.5 feet down. This explains why it was freezing ( Minnesota ). Did the leak cause the rocks and frost to push the line up? The rest was all consistently 7 feet down. Now this line was in great shape other than the rust hole, pipe was clear inside and remarkably sound after being buried almost a hundred years. I patched it with no trouble. BUT, now I have NO water out to the barns ! I have included a sketch of how its laid out. The water starts in the house and goes out to the barns. When dug up, I blew air through the lines from the big barn and small barn, and had good flow to the spot of repair. After repair and before burying it back up I had no leaks and decent flow to the big barn, I let it run for 3 hours while I filled the hole back in. So next morning I have nothing to the barns , but excellent flow to the small outbuilding ! So what happened? I tried blowing air back through the pipes with no luck, I stuck a strong shop vac on the line and got nothing . I am scratching my head ! Any ideas ? Could it be sediment that got back in that old rust hole , and if so can that really stop ALL flow ? Why did it run for 3 hours okay then ? If it was another leak how would I get good flow to the outbuilding ? Need some new input, thanks...
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Just about got to be rust chunks packed up against a fitting. They usually grow around fittings, especially if there is dissimilar metal involved.

Any way to rod it out with something like a stick of rebar? As old as it is, it's on borrowed time anyway, might be more fun to replace it with Pex now than this winter!
 
I think you are right about the frost heave, ground gets saturated by the leak, that will heave quite a bit.

Looking at the diagram, considering what you have said, its hard to figure, with the branch lines and or whole system being buried.

This has seemed to exceeded its service life, maybe the rust hole was a material defect, or part of the conditions there, or there could be more of them, but without having it all exposed, you won't likely know and I am sure you don't want to hear about installing a new line.

Obviously static testing through low pressurization due to age( should be 1 1/2 x operating pressure of the pipe) is going to show a leak, or leaks, but where and how many, you can't isolate any of it if its buried, maybe you could at the repair that was exposed ? Not much help, these can be a real pain, I've dealt with enough of it at our stable in the past, even installed new lines, at that point at least any trouble besides freezing is at the ends where you can deal with it.
 
Believe me I am getting to the point of trenching in a whole new line, but I still want to figure this out. I agree it could be rust, but packed so tightly that I get NO water and 120 psi of air wont dislodge it ? Why the heck did it flow good yesterday ??? I cant rod it out as it makes too many bends as it leaves the house and also where it enters the barn. Frustrating , lol. I was thinking it could have collapsed somewhere, but overnight and the day after I repaired it ? Could be I suppose....
 
If it ran OK before filling & not after filling, something happened to the pipe while backfilling, like the pipe got smashed between 2 rocks.
 
(quoted from post at 13:25:22 08/31/15) Believe me I am getting to the point of trenching in a whole new line, but I still want to figure this out. I agree it could be rust, but packed so tightly that I get NO water and 120 psi of air wont dislodge it ? Why the heck did it flow good yesterday ??? I cant rod it out as it makes too many bends as it leaves the house and also where it enters the barn. Frustrating , lol. I was thinking it could have collapsed somewhere, but overnight and the day after I repaired it ? Could be I suppose....
s evidence that it does not take much to plug a line, I installed a 200 foot water line to shed, using pipe that was purchased several years before & stored in barn. Applied water & nothing came out. Applied 120PSI air to both ends & still no flow. Still not covered, was able to lift line & determine where is was full of water vs air. Cut it & found that dirt daubers had built home in it. Just a simple mud nest was that strong!
 
True, but look at my diagram and you can see the repair point was a branch off the main line to the big barn, and I have nothing at the big barn, but I did yesterday all the while I was filling in the hole and for about an hour afterwards. I only dug up the spot of repair, not the whole thing.
 
Pure speculation.....

The air going through dried out some of the rust flakes inside the pipe. Often just certain fittings go rusty, or a poorer bit of pipe section....

You flushed it with water, the flakes reverted the selves and many flowed on through.

Now, as the water sits, the flakes left fall to the bottom of the pipe, and the cycling use of the water line sloshes the flakes to wherever they catch and pack up. A corner or the bottom of a hydrant or such.

Indeed the flakes and a bit of sediment can pack up a line pretty quickly.

But, I'm just guessing?

Can you shut the pump, open a line I guess at the outbuilding, and pump water or air backwards to see if it breaks loose backwards?

In the end you still have all the junk in the line, but maybe it would help get it flushed out, or at least provide an answer as to what is going on.

I wonder if the gunk built up just past the Tee to the outbuilding?

Paul
 
Thank you, it makes sense doesn't it.... I am going to try reversing the water flow and see if it pushes it loose. So far I have only tried reverse air pressure and the shop vac,thanks.
 
I have had just sediment build up to the point stopping flow. I am sure rust would do the same.
Richard in NW SC
 
If it's a plug it's probably in the ELL coming up out of the ground if you can get to that ell that may be where the plug is Since the ground is not packed now I would shovel down to the repair, open up the pipe and run a wire pulling snake both directions to find the plug. Or get the back hoe back, to dig down again to the pipe. Your decision to install a new pipe might be decided after that test. You may be able to rent the wire pulling snake. Stan
 
I'd start at the Big Barn end, remove the valve there and look for blockage- it COULD be the tee to the small barn, or both the big and small barn "end of run" valves. At least those can be unscrewed and flushed without digging.
 
Are you absolutely certain that your diagram is correct? Maybe the take-off for the big barn comes after the leak point, otherwise it doesn't make sense to me. If it's been underground for 100 yrs how do you know the exact layout? Just if it was 'someone told me' usually doesn't carry much weight. Have you tried removing what ever fittings (hose bib or whatever) you have at the barn to see if the fitting is clogged up?
 
The air you blew through more than likely created your problem. You mentioned it was a really old pipe. Personally i would go get me a roll of pipe and renew the line. I have dug around really old water lines before just trying to locate them and dig the dirt away and they would start leaking. Cut a section out of 3/4 old water line before and there wasn't enough room to stick a pencil in. It just would be to your advantage to replace it and relieve you from alot of headache in the future. Because it will stop up again being it has been disturbed.
 
Water lines buried seven feet? I can't help with your problem, but seven feet? Mine are just deep enough that I don't hit them with the lawn mower. That's what I like about the South. TDF
 
Yeah 7 feet, and erosion probably took some of that. Around here 8-10 feet deep is common especially if it goes under a driveway or area that gets plowed and wont have snow cover to insulate.
 
Yes I am considering just putting in all new, which will be a mess and big job for me. Look at the pic of the pipe. I know it likely isn't all that nice and spots could be very bad.I am sure of my sketch, its based on my Grandfathers notes, he is the one who built my farm , there was nothing here before him but fields and woods. Thank you for the input, I appreciate all thoughts !

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Oops , I responded to you after the wrong post. My diagram is from my Grandfathers notes of when they laid the pipes,
plus I blew air through at the repair point and verified it too. I am puzzled and thanks for your reply !
 
That piece of pipe sure looks good. Seen similar installed in house in 1937 that looked 10X worse!
 
I presume this is a pressurized line.

I have a cistern gravity feeding a barn, and it ends up maybe 5# of pressure is all.

When the cistern empties, it vapor locks the line somehow, and it end up with the water not pushing through the line. I need to back feed water or a fair anmount of air, to get the line running downhill. Somewhere there must be a dip or bump in the line and it airlocks so ehow at the low pressures these gravity lines run.

Paul
 
not sure it it is possible, can you rent a line inspection camera and start at the barn with no water and go back up the line? if you turn off the water pump does your water pressure decrease slow or fast? I purchased a usb camera for my laptop that will go about 65 feet, might be an idea.
 

Interesting problem. I push white bread without the crust in copper line to soak up any water when I am making a repair or adding a fitting. I plugged a faucet once - amazing - with bread. Might remove the faucets in the barns. Most faucets are a choke point, the exceptions would be ball valves and gate valves.

Perhaps you have checked or I didn't see it in the post. If you pressurize the line and close all the valves: if it holds pressure it is plugged, if the pressure leaks down there is a leak.
 
If you screw on a reducer inverted so that it swells the hole in the ground a bit you can pull new line in pulling the old line out this will save digging in areas like driveway where you don't want to have to mess up the drive. You will need some one to unroll the new line as you pull it through. I have pulled about 75 feet at a time. AN excavator will pull it easier than a backhoe.
 
Two Dogs , Where did you come up with that name. Is it from that indian joke about how the boy got his name???. Reason i ask is i had a superintendent that called me that all the time back in the 70s.
It didnt bother me any we give everybody some kind of crazy name on the crew.
 
I would bet frost got under that place and started heaving the rocks up which carried the pipe with them.
 

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