OT - John T or others, legal to be charged 8 yrs latter

I had a propane tank that was "leased" from a local company. The lease consisted of if I used at least 700 gallons of propane a year there would be no charge to use the tank. With recent price drops it made sense to purchase my own tank, able to get the propane for approx 1/2 the price it would cost me to buy from the "lease" company, basically able to pay for the tank after a year or two. So get the new tank and tell the company to come get their tank they installed 8 years ago. Just received a bill from them for the materials they used to level the lease tank, the line to the house and a regulator along with a charge to pick up the tank. The charge to pick up the tank is spelled out on the original invoice, so I'm ok with that, but the other cost were just itemized on the original invoice with no cost. Can they really charge me for this 8 years latter, especially since a price wasn't listed on the original invoice? Attached are links to picture of a copy of the original invoice and the bill they sent me. Any advice?

This is where you need to talk to an attorney in your state.

Rick

(quoted from post at 08:38:56 08/04/15) This is where you need to talk to an attorney in your state.

Rick

Click to expand...

Would think an attorney would be more than the bill? Irritates me as I was never late with a payment to them for 8 years, was still most likely going to buy gas thru them, now that they want to nickle/dime me may just buy from someone else out of spite.

I suppose they could pick up the line and regulator, since you didn't pay for them
they still belong to the provider. Local propane companies here are cash up front
before they will do any work.

The line and the regulator are theirs. The pickup fee seems reasonable. So you are really talking about the fee for leveling. Pay and get on with your life.

But on the other hand IF you switch suppliers and don't pay the bill then they are the ones who'll incur costs to collect. I would think if you pay them what your
contract says you owe them then dispute any further billing you have switched the problem to them rather then you. Of course they'll report it to the credit
bureaus as a delinquent account and you'll have to spend time dealing with the credit people requesting it's removed from your credit report because it's in
dispute OR 8 years old.

Bottom line is propane is like so many industries where the companies are working hard so they don't have to compete for customers, they want you locked up or tied
to them by contract which of course means that service declines. Your purchase of your own tank is a move away from their preferred business model and if it's a
chain probably causing branch management some issues as they probably have a metric for % of customers with a leased tank and your desire for independence may be
affecting their ability to earn a bonus or promotion.

For the cost you really have to ask yourself is it really worth the time and frustration you'll spend?

The only time I got the upper hand with a propane supplier was when they mis-credited my check to someone else's account so of course they still insisted that I
owed them money. I gave them the check number and the date it cleared my credit union. They wanted a copy of the check, I explained my credit union charged for
such things and I'd get them the check, BUT if it was as I said so they'd be responsible for reimbursing ME for the cost of the check. I also pointed out that the
leased tank was on an Air Force installation (I lived in a trailer on the Air Base) and failure to pay for said copy of the check would be reported to the base
commander who had the authority to refuse them access to the base and their tanks. After that they got off their half moons and found the check and credited it.
The only rea son I won was that I made it apparent to them that it was going to cause them more problems to do it their way than mine.

I would think the worst case scenario (and I ain't no lawyer) is don't pay, let them take you to small claims court, and then let the judge decide. I would think then, if you lose, you pay the bill (and also the court costs).

Several years ago when I quit using propane and switched to natural gas, I called to have my tank picked up. They asked how much gas was
left in it and I would have to pay a per gallon charge to have it pumped back into an underground storage. I told them I could empty it out by
letting it go into the air. They told me, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT, and that I didn't have to pay the fee!

so let me get this right. They charged you $176 to install a good level place to set a tank on, dug a line in from the tank to you house, installed a regulator, and your complaining? Id pay it and move on with life.

I suppose the company could have been more upfront about the costs 8 years ago. They probably should have just charged you for it 8 years ago. The invoice from '07 in the pic mentions something about "terms on the reverse side of this agreement". Does it say anything there about paying for those items?

In my mind, they installed what you needed to use a tank. They either take it back, or you can buy it. I guess I don't understand why you expect them to give you the pipe, risers, and regulator without paying for it. (other than your surprise 8 years later) I'm assuming you will use them with the new tank?

I also can't see where they charged you for the labor, just the materials. I think '07 invoice lists 2.5 hours of labor@$75/hour (or is it 25 hours?). That would be another $187 dollars. So, if you aren't having to bury the line yourself and put it together, it sounds like you came out ahead.

Personally, if I was going to continue to use those parts, I would pay for them. If they are specific to the old tank, or unusable for the new tank, I would dig them up and return them, and then bury my new stuff in the hole I was going to need to dig anyway. It sucks to be surprised, but I expect to pay for things. My two "non-lawyer" cents.

I don't mind paying for what I owe, just thought it odd that on the original delivery no price for any item was stated and now 8 years latter I pay the current price? Basically a blank check for them to charge what they want? When I went away from my home land line, ATT didn't charge me for the cable to my house?

If it were me, they could either come get the tank, or just leave it right where it is. When they realize you are no longer buying propane from them, they will probably come and get the tank.

8 years is long enough for them to recover the cost of the regulator. I think 10 years is the life expectancy of a regulator, and it should be replaced at that point.

A few years ago I was purchasing from a small propane company and was quite happy with them, then they sold to a large company (Amerigas), and immediately began (what I consider) gouging the customers. The
first I noticed was that their yard began filling up with tanks due to customers going elsewhere. I purchased my own (used) tank, "snuggled" it up close to theirs, and had a independent supplier fill my
tank. Once their tank was almost empty, I called them to come get their tank. They threatened to charge me to pump out the propane (there was none left to pump), and charge me to pick up THEIR tank (key word
is it is their tank much like your situation). I wished them luck at collecting. I took my tractor and front loader and placed the tank out by the road, and advised where they could get it, and advised them
I wanted it off my property or I would deliver it in their driveway. The picked it up, and the last statement indicated a zero balance. My opinion - they would have a difficult time collecting, and I doubt
they will try very hard to collect.

Agreed.

Over the last couple of years there have been a lot of "dealings" of people with propane suppliers. When the price was high almost all of the suppliers in my area filled anyone's tank they could over what you order and then have you pay for it. When it happens continually it isn't just and oversight or mistake. I had an argument with mine over just that.

I spent 14 years in the fuel business part of that was propane. I saw so much of this back then. We sold tanks to people and used good service and competive price to keep them. Other companies in our area used the free tank thing to get peoples business and hold on to it that way. I received a lot of calls asking me to fill tanks owned by other companys. I did refuse to do that. I would never let a company set any type of tank on my property that had not been purchased by me. In answer to your question-the copper line cannot be removed and reused. Did they take the regulators or leave them? If they left them and you are using them with the new tank-pay for them and go on with life.

life is to short to get all worked up and in a big hassle over $231.00. I would just pay the bill and do something constructive with the time and effort and grief it would take to fight.

Good afternoon Yak, you ask "but the other cost were just itemized on the original invoice with no cost. Can they really charge me for this 8 years latter, especially since a price wasn't listed on the original invoice?"

ANSWER probably YES.

In the event there's any firm price written contract, the writing generally prevails (whats called four corners doctrine). Its ONLY if there's an ambiguity or uncertainty the Court may fill in the blanks. However, even if litigated, I'm sure the propane company can provide credible admissible evidence (like business records) as to their reasonable charges and fees and if you cant furnish evidence to rebut that (but where you gonna get that???) they will likely prevail. As an attorney I never take such cases telling the people no way I'm taking their hard earned money when I doubt I will get them a dime in return.

Sorryyyyyyyyyyyy But that don't mean its still not negotiable!!!!!!!!! Make them an Offer or tell them they can take you to Court. They may accept far less to avoid the hassle or be given a bad reputation.

John T

Her's what I seen work in a case just like yours. They told the customer what it would cost to have them pick up their tank. Customer told them okay and here's how much you will owe me to enter my property. It was picked up with no charge. Good Luck

If I was your propane company I would have came and got the tank an cut the lines at the ground and took the pieces plus the regulator back. This was that company's equipment You where just renting. So it was all theirs none of it was yours. You are wanting to KEEP their equipment for no charge. They agreed to let you use it all for FREE if your bought at least 700 gallons of propane. They lived up to that. Now you have broke the lease and they want paid for their equipment/supplies. Nothing wrong with getting paid for things YOU provided.

Truthfully tank installations are running $300-400 around here now so your $230 is really reasonable.

I would tell them to pound sand.

If they are just tacking on charges like you say, I wouldnt even pay the $55, I figure they already collected that money from some other rube that just blindly paid the bill.

If you look at CCAP, you will see in 2015 and 2014 Garrow Propane Corp only filed in court on amounts above $500. Filing fee for court is $96.50. Do you think they are going to pay the book keeper their wages to fight this in court after they have to plunk down half the amount they could win? Thats not very likely. Whats more likely is they will send you bills till the end of time, hoping some day you just pay it. Say for example, you get sick and somebody has to take over paying bills for you, they might just pay it without knowing the back story.

Bottom line, I think they are trying to shaft you and I would tell them to pound sand. There is no way they are going to do anything over $200 if it costs them $94.50 to sue you.

Most states the Statue of Limitations on collecting a verbal debt is 3 years and a written contract debt is 5 years or similar.I'd remind them of the fact and I guarantee they already know it but hope you don't.

10 years on a regulator???????? I am using them from the 50's with no problems.

I meant to add - one of the main reasons I left them and told them to come get the tank was their bill was full of added charges. "fuel recovery fees", etc. in addition to a significant rate increase. I asked what a fuel recovery fee was, and they said it was to pay for fuel in the truck it took to deliver to customers. I had no choice except to pay that bill, but I advised her that was the one and only time they would get it, and then they basically started with that they could not do anything about it. I advised her I could - have them pick up their tank to which the response was that there was a charge to pump the tank out, and pick up THEIR tank. Keep in mind that I had never signed a tank lease, and they basically inherited me as a customer when they purchased the previous owners business. I now own my own tank, and the gas in my tank, and purchase and pay in full on delivery from another smaller propane company which is locally owned, and is basically in business to sell propane, and not try to gouge the customer for every dime they can. Apparently I was one of hundreds in the area that left, and another local propane dealer told me that that buyout was the best thing that happened to them as they gained a very large percentage of the local customers. One customer was so upset that he hauled the tank on a trailer and chained it to their fence and drove away leaving the tank sitting blocking the driveway. Funny how word gets around, and before long their reputation of good customer relations is shot over trying to charge a long time customer for picking up a tank that THEY in fact own to begin with. Guess I got on a bit of a rant, but why would a propane company even begin to think they can charge a customer to haul a tank they claim to own? If this is the case, you can charge storage for it sitting on your property. Works for the tow companies (but that is another story and another pet peeve of mine).

It may not seem fair since you most likely paid to much for your propane but materials were included in your lease agreement so you probably owe it to end the contract. It does look like todays prices but I didn't see labor witch would have been almost that much again if they had included it. I would say just pay it and be more careful to know what your signing better next time.

Those statements work because most people working for propane companies don't want trouble but most tank leases would say that you guarantee access to the tank.

I recently switched trash pick up services. The old company charged me for picking up
their 2 dumpsters. I wish I could mention who they are, a nation wide company, but I
better not. I paid what they charged and ll I have to say is good riddens, glad to be
done with them.

Are you going to use their regulator and lines on your new tank? IF not sell them.

(quoted from post at 06:43:26 08/05/15) I recently switched trash pick up services. The old company charged me for picking up
their 2 dumpsters. I wish I could mention who they are, a nation wide company, but I
better not. I paid what they charged and ll I have to say is good riddens, glad to be
done with them.

Click to expand...

When I dropped their service I was told they would charge $35 to pick up the dumpster. I told them i would drop it off some day when I was driving past their depot. I was told I couldn't do that. I said good luck trying to collect as I never would sign a contract with them and they bought out a local service that I was using previously. They picked it up a couple months later. I never did hear from them again.

Yak they do own the regulator and maybe the line. So when you quit buying from them they want their stuff back. And yes they will charge you for pumping the tank dry. What is also interesting is that you do own the gas in their tank so when they pump it out they will then BUY it back at wholesale.
When I built a new house I thought I would use a propane furnace and would need a bigger tank. My provider was willing to sell a used tank for new tank prices which decided me to shop around.
I first used the gas in the existing tank until it was empty THEN bought a new tank for a much better price. And the company is smarter than to charge for pick up.
If you live on a farm you do have the ability to load these tanks.
Don't be unreasonable, be calm and be smart.

I went through this here, America gas bought out the company I had been with for 25 plus years,, they more than doubled the lease and gas prices when they took over told them pick up your tank,,, But DO NOT drive on my grass as it was very wet and to let me know when they are coming as I have drain lines that they could damage,,, they said Sure No problem they Will call,,, Nope caught them making 6" tracks in my yard,,, even had offered the jerk in the office I would pick it up with my loader and carry it the 2' to solid ground as my unit was much lighter than their truck,, Do Not touch our tank, they can reach that far with the boom,, ok cool I thought,,,, anyway after I brought up the ruts they just made, the guys hooked on to it with the winch and slid it to the truck,,, then I get the final bill,,,, they tried to charge me 150 to pick it up, 50 for hazard material disposal to remove the left over LP,, (funny as I had let it go dry) called them up and asked about the bill, Oh you have to pay that in your "contract" I said Not in any one I signed with you But I will send you a check,,, But I will be sending you a 500 dollar bill for driving across my lawn that you did not need to do and was agreed that they would not do,,,,,, I also said you owe me for the tank rents I just paid 105 for a year,, (it was 32.00 from the old company),,, they said fine they would drop the charges and return my tank rent,,, 2 weeks go by no return pmt,,, I call back,,, oh we decided we are not doing that,,, I say I am less than 1/4 mile from the office and I am stopping by for a check have it ready,,,, I hear the manager say tot he gal on the phone,, PAY him Do Not let him come by say we are Closed right Now,,,, the next day I had a check Put in my mailbox I hate liars and cheats,,, by the way the lines from the tank regulator all of it I had paid for when it was installed they are mine
cnt
cnt

And who was your trash provider?