Narrow front vs wide front

Nick167

Member
Does putting a wide front on a row crop tractor such as a farmall M or H or a Oliver 77 make them less likely to roll over? I read both ways and I am curious as to if it does or not
 
By the time you tip it far enough that you hope the wide front end will stop you, its to late. Would not be enough weight on front end to stop anything. My thinking.
 
I am not sure but many years ago I watched my grandfather work around a steep sidehill that I had quit on because it was too steep for my wide front 641 ford.He was driving a narrow front super C farmall!
 
There are many basic factors to consider. First, the center of gravity of the tractor is extremely important to know. Lower CG, more stable. If you have a loader, the CG is variable with the raised height of the loader and the load being carried. A narrow front end does little or nothing to add to a tractor's stability. A WFE does add some stability. Mostly the stability on side hills is a matter of how low the CG is.
 
Yes it helps a little bit but not all that much since if your driving on a hill side you get to a point that no matter what your driving it is going to flip. I have pictures of an 8N and a hill side and the guy got lucky he slid into a tree before the tractor flipped over
 
Farmalls have no pivot point on the narrow front. It's only pivot point is at the ground - about as low as you can get. I'm not sure how the old Deere Roll-o-Matic worked so for them I cannot say. A wide front pivots under the bolster - about two feet higher than the narrow. Like someone mentioned, once you get to the stops on a wide it is too late to do you any good.

My go-to loader tractor is on a narrow front. The maneuverability is superb. I have a loader on a bigger tractor but I like using my M more. I live on pretty flat ground, but I won't push any loader tractor to the "pucker point".

Operator education has everything to do with it. Not intelligence, education.
 

I agree with the rest, not much. The wide front did save my 630 when I had the loader up high carrying a long tree clamped down with the grapple on almost level ground. (I know!) The left rear came up slowly, slow enough that I was standing on the left loader bracket ready to bail. The front end hit the stops and there she sat with the left rear wheel off the ground. I lowered the loader and the wheel went back down. My heart rate didn't go down for awhile though! If I would have been on a side hill the tractor would have gone on over.

This tractor started out with a narrow front and when I put the wide front on the first thing I noticed while using the loader is the wide front changed a side to side rocking motion to more of a horizontal side to side motion when I was driving on uneven ground with the loader raised.
 
If its too steep for a narrow,it's too steep for a wide.Not enough difference in wide vrs narrow to make much if any difference.A wide being "more stable" is a wives tale,an optical illusion.
 
There was a university study that showed that on flat ground to hills WITHOUT a loader narrow and wide front are just as stable except going downhill with a load pushing, like with a loaded wagon. Now this is all within normal operating parameters.

I myself don't like NF but that's personal preference. Wish I had book marked that study now.

Rick
 
University studies obviously can vary. The one
I did myself as an ag engineering undergrad
(meaning nothing was published) showed a
measurable difference in favor of the wide
front. The model for both narrow and wide
front tractors had the machine setting on a
three-point base - the two back wheels and a
single point at the front. However, on the
wide front the single point was elevated to the
height of the axle oscillation point whereas on
the narrow front it was on the ground plane. A
line from this point to either rear tire
defines the "tipping axis" of the tractor. A
"stability index" of 100 was defined as when
the loads on the rear wheels were equal
(assuming the CG is located on the centerline
plane) and an index of 0 was when either rear
wheel became completely unloaded.

Having this front point elevated means that
when turning the centrifugal force acting on
the center of gravity has a shorter "lever arm"
to work with about the tipping axis which
results in less weight being transferred off of
the inner wheel. Likewise, when the tractor is
operating on an incline the CG point will cross
over this tipping axis sooner if it is along
the ground vs. being elevated. The farther
forward the CG is the more stability benefit
you get from a wide front.

Although it wasn't considered in the study the
wide front also gives you a "last chance" to
stop tipping when the axle pivot bottoms out.
I personally experienced this once with a
Kubota when backing up with the loader bucket
full of rocks. One rear tire started climbing
up a six inch high ledge and kept on heading up
until the front axle bottomed out. Dumped the
bucket and the tire came back to earth. In a
higher speed situation, however, you may have
enough momentum to flip the tractor on over
anyway which is why this wasn't factored into
the stability index equation.
 
The general consensus is yes the wide front is more stable.

I grew up with narrow front loader tractors and never tipped one over. Closest I ever got was raising a rear wheel of the ground trying to lift too heavy a load of manure in the bucket.

I think if your careless you can tip a wide front over just as fast as a narrow.

This might be a question for another thread. Growing up we heard tell of several wide front tractors such as a Ford 8n go over backwards. Never heard of a narrow front doing that. I guess they could.
 
Unless you are dealing with ridiculously steep terrain, or drive the tractor abusively neither one will tip over.
 
(quoted from post at 21:46:30 01/26/15) The general consensus is yes the wide front is more stable.

I grew up with narrow front loader tractors and never tipped one over. Closest I ever got was raising a rear wheel of the ground trying to lift too heavy a load of manure in the bucket.

I think if your careless you can tip a wide front over just as fast as a narrow.

This might be a question for another thread. Growing up we heard tell of several wide front tractors such as a Ford 8n go over backwards. Never heard of a narrow front doing that. I guess they could.

Dean the problem with the small Fords flipping over backwards is the weight. They are so lite that if you was dragging a log and it catches while you are moving it goes over. Or trying to jerk out a stump. Add in that most don't have a real drawbar. Most people just put the 3 point bar on the lower 2 points. Then when trying to snatch a stump or pull a log out the raise it up as high as it will go. Not good. And conventional tractor can flip over backwards. Just most have the weight that they are harder to flip. How many times have you seen the front tires life off the ground?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 02:39:29 01/27/15) Does putting a wide front on a row crop tractor such as a farmall M or H or a Oliver 77 make them less likely to roll over? I read both ways and I am curious as to if it does or not

If tipping a tractor over is a concern invest in a good ROPS and a seat belt.
 
(quoted from post at 19:11:45 01/26/15) Farmalls have no pivot point on the narrow front. It's only pivot point is at the ground - about as low as you can get. I'm not sure how the old Deere Roll-o-Matic worked so for them I cannot say. A wide front pivots under the bolster - about two feet higher than the narrow. Like someone mentioned, once you get to the stops on a wide it is too late to do you any good.

My go-to loader tractor is on a narrow front. The maneuverability is superb. I have a loader on a bigger tractor but I like using my M more. I live on pretty flat ground, but I won't push any loader tractor to the "pucker point".

Operator education has everything to do with it. Not intelligence, education.

BINGO!!! We have a winner!!!
 
Wide front end definitely for a Backhoe or even a loader. The roll cage, not a single roll bar, on my little Terramite has saved me trips to the hospital. Last time I was lifting a pipe with concrete on one end. Some how it slipped off the loader, concrete landed on the ground, pipe went vertical then fell towards me. Wound have hit me in the head had it not been for the cage. Happened real fast. Thank God the the roll cage. When things get scarey I buckle up too.
 
(quoted from post at 06:15:01 01/27/15)
(quoted from post at 19:11:45 01/26/15) Farmalls have no pivot point on the narrow front. It's only pivot point is at the ground - about as low as you can get. I'm not sure how the old Deere Roll-o-Matic worked so for them I cannot say. A wide front pivots under the bolster - about two feet higher than the narrow. Like someone mentioned, once you get to the stops on a wide it is too late to do you any good.

My go-to loader tractor is on a narrow front. The maneuverability is superb. I have a loader on a bigger tractor but I like using my M more. I live on pretty flat ground, but I won't push any loader tractor to the "pucker point".

Operator education has everything to do with it. Not intelligence, education.

BINGO!!! We have a winner!!!


Let me say respectfully W R O N G!!!!!! In order for a solution to be workable it has to be realistic. What is our expectation that education is going to take place? How many of us when getting our first tractor enrolled in an operator safety course? How many were given a safety course when first hired to work on a farm? how many were REALLY trained by a parent or older brother before being told to jump on? FFA and 4H to a great job for what they do but that is only a drop in the bucket. There can be no expectation of a cure when the solution is one that will not be applied. We all know someone who is reckless but really how often do you get up in the morning and say I guess I will be careless today? What I see is the best prevention of tractor upset is ballasting. Weather wheel weights suitcase weights, tire loading or just a 55 gallon drum on the 3 point, even though a portion of the weight may be above the CG, most of it will be below and regardless of what you are driving or carrying in a bucket, it will often make the difference when the high side tire goes up over a rock in the grass or the low side goes into a chuck hole. ballasting is something that we can get done before taking delivery of the tractor. It can also be done on any given day when one knows that a conscious step towards safety needs to be taken. Once it is done it is not a miracle cure-all, but after that time when it is done, every time the key on that tractor Is turned the operation is a very significant increment safer.
 
We grew up with 9 tractor operators. The only tractor to ever roll was a 656 wide front - on the same terrace backside every other operator had been at one time or another with another 656 narrow front or our H narrow front.

A wide front is more stabile but the operator makes more of a difference.
 
(quoted from post at 06:48:25 01/27/15)
(quoted from post at 06:15:01 01/27/15)
(quoted from post at 19:11:45 01/26/15) Farmalls have no pivot point on the narrow front. It's only pivot point is at the ground - about as low as you can get. I'm not sure how the old Deere Roll-o-Matic worked so for them I cannot say. A wide front pivots under the bolster - about two feet higher than the narrow. Like someone mentioned, once you get to the stops on a wide it is too late to do you any good.

My go-to loader tractor is on a narrow front. The maneuverability is superb. I have a loader on a bigger tractor but I like using my M more. I live on pretty flat ground, but I won't push any loader tractor to the "pucker point".

Operator education has everything to do with it. Not intelligence, education.

BINGO!!! We have a winner!!!


Let me say respectfully W R O N G!!!!!! In order for a solution to be workable it has to be realistic. What is our expectation that education is going to take place? How many of us when getting our first tractor enrolled in an operator safety course? How many were given a safety course when first hired to work on a farm? how many were REALLY trained by a parent or older brother before being told to jump on? FFA and 4H to a great job for what they do but that is only a drop in the bucket. There can be no expectation of a cure when the solution is one that will not be applied. We all know someone who is reckless but really how often do you get up in the morning and say I guess I will be careless today? What I see is the best prevention of tractor upset is ballasting. Weather wheel weights suitcase weights, tire loading or just a 55 gallon drum on the 3 point, even though a portion of the weight may be above the CG, most of it will be below and regardless of what you are driving or carrying in a bucket, it will often make the difference when the high side tire goes up over a rock in the grass or the low side goes into a chuck hole. ballasting is something that we can get done before taking delivery of the tractor. It can also be done on any given day when one knows that a conscious step towards safety needs to be taken. Once it is done it is not a miracle cure-all, but after that time when it is done, every time the key on that tractor Is turned the operation is a very significant increment safer.

What you just stated DOES come under the heading of "operator education", and yes, education only works when it is applied.

In most states, succesful completion of a drivers education course is required before a drivers license will be given. In spite of all that, there are still folks who own and drive a car, and really do not know how to drive.
 
I'll add my 2 cents..... I'm sure mathematically it does help, but I don't think it makes much difference in the real world. That being said ,if it will make you feel better or you just like the looks put one on and try it.
 
Taking all posts into consideration , human nature and lack of education or lack of believing what one is taught , is going to cause a lot of young and old operators to have a false security with wide front end that will and has caused many accidents where-as they wouldn't have even been doing that or going thet fast with a narrow front. The overstated belief of "more stability" causes the accidents , not the actual facts.
 
(quoted from post at 01:49:10 01/27/15)
(quoted from post at 21:46:30 01/26/15) The general consensus is yes the wide front is more stable.

I grew up with narrow front loader tractors and never tipped one over. Closest I ever got was raising a rear wheel of the ground trying to lift too heavy a load of manure in the bucket.

I think if your careless you can tip a wide front over just as fast as a narrow.

This might be a question for another thread. Growing up we heard tell of several wide front tractors such as a Ford 8n go over backwards. Never heard of a narrow front doing that. I guess they could.

Dean the problem with the small Fords flipping over backwards is the weight. They are so lite that if you was dragging a log and it catches while you are moving it goes over. Or trying to jerk out a stump. Add in that most don't have a real drawbar. Most people just put the 3 point bar on the lower 2 points. Then when trying to snatch a stump or pull a log out the raise it up as high as it will go. Not good. And conventional tractor can flip over backwards. Just most have the weight that they are harder to flip. How many times have you seen the front tires life off the ground?

Rick

What fords are you talking about. The bottom links pull from below the axle. Its pulling from the axle, or the top link bracket that flips em over. Can not flip if pulling from the bottom links as the point of mounting of the bottom links is under the rear axle and after a certain height, the pull will actually limit the tilt.. Too many put a chain around the rear axle or on the top link bracket. And if the tractor had the swinging drawbar, it also was attached under the rear end. The pull from below the rear end was the furguson patent that allowed a small tractor to pull more than its bigger predecessors. Anything from the 2n (1932)on was designed this way.
 
Yes.
How many NEW NF tractors have you seen made in the last 30 years? How many ATV's have had 3 wheels in the last 25?

Mike
 
Thanks for everyone that weighed in! I don't think I'll worry about putting any wide fronts on a any NF I have or receive.
 
(quoted from post at 19:16:58 01/27/15) Yes.
How many NEW NF tractors have you seen made in the last 30 years? How many ATV's have had 3 wheels in the last 25?

Mike

When power steering came along as standard, front loaders became the norm and row crop cultivation pretty much ended, so did the narrow front. It wasn't tip overs that killed the tricycle tractor. It was however tip overs and accidents that killed off trike ATVs, but then, when people give their kids any ATV it's a sure bet they'll go too fast, turn too quick and pop wheelies. Consequently, they'll eventually get hurt or killed. That's what killed the trike ATV. I've hauled a lot of dead and injured people out from under 4 wheel ATVs. They would have been just as hurt or dead with a 3 wheeler.
 
(quoted from post at 16:14:42 01/27/15) Thanks for everyone that weighed in! I don't think I'll worry about putting any wide fronts on a any NF I have or receive.

Good to hear!
 
(quoted from post at 14:29:59 01/27/15)
(quoted from post at 01:49:10 01/27/15)
(quoted from post at 21:46:30 01/26/15) The general consensus is yes the wide front is more stable.

I grew up with narrow front loader tractors and never tipped one over. Closest I ever got was raising a rear wheel of the ground trying to lift too heavy a load of manure in the bucket.

I think if your careless you can tip a wide front over just as fast as a narrow.

This might be a question for another thread. Growing up we heard tell of several wide front tractors such as a Ford 8n go over backwards. Never heard of a narrow front doing that. I guess they could.

Dean the problem with the small Fords flipping over backwards is the weight. They are so lite that if you was dragging a log and it catches while you are moving it goes over. Or trying to jerk out a stump. Add in that most don't have a real drawbar. Most people just put the 3 point bar on the lower 2 points. Then when trying to snatch a stump or pull a log out the raise it up as high as it will go. Not good. And conventional tractor can flip over backwards. Just most have the weight that they are harder to flip. How many times have you seen the front tires life off the ground?

Rick

What fords are you talking about. The bottom links pull from below the axle. Its pulling from the axle, or the top link bracket that flips em over. Can not flip if pulling from the bottom links as the point of mounting of the bottom links is under the rear axle and after a certain height, the pull will actually limit the tilt.. Too many put a chain around the rear axle or on the top link bracket. And if the tractor had the swinging drawbar, it also was attached under the rear end. The pull from below the rear end was the furguson patent that allowed a small tractor to pull more than its bigger predecessors. Anything from the 2n (1932)on was designed this way.

What a lot of folks do is hook with the three point raised or they lift the end of a look. With the 2 point raised and a jerking motion or whats being pulled snagging the geometry of how it's being used is what causes it to flip. Add in that with something like a log it's already taken weight off of the front end. Keep the lift arms low, no problem except the light weight of the tractor itself. Go read about the flip over accidents. A surprising number are attempting to jerk out stumps or rocks or dragging logs out of the woods.



Rick
 
(quoted from post at 22:39:29 01/26/15) Does putting a wide front on a row crop tractor such as a farmall M or H or a Oliver 77 make them less likely to roll over? I read both ways and I am curious as to if it does or not

kinda a wash...
putting a wide front on a factory narrow front row crop,
usually raises the front end.
The tiny bit of stability gained with the wide front gets cancelled by the raise of the center of gravity....

IMO, it's not really the tri-cycle fronts balance that gets people in trouble.
It's the NF's far faster/shorter turning radius.

and when it comes to loaders, all bets are off.
too much weight, unbalanced, and too high.....yer going over...no matter how many tires ya got.
 
(quoted from post at 16:14:42 01/27/15) Thanks for everyone that weighed in! I don't think I'll worry about putting any wide fronts on a any NF I have or receive.


LOL, I'm the exact opposite! If someone gave me a NF tractor I'd switch it or scrap it! Course I work everything I own. With everything I own sometimes a little tighter turning would be nice but there is nothing that I'm doing that it would be a significant advantage. I just plain don't like the way they look :shock: .

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 15:54:24 01/28/15)
(quoted from post at 22:39:29 01/26/15) Does putting a wide front on a row crop tractor such as a farmall M or H or a Oliver 77 make them less likely to roll over? I read both ways and I am curious as to if it does or not

kinda a wash...
putting a wide front on a factory narrow front row crop,
usually raises the front end.
The tiny bit of stability gained with the wide front gets cancelled by the raise of the center of gravity....

IMO, it's not really the tri-cycle fronts balance that gets people in trouble.
It's the NF's far faster/shorter turning radius.

and when it comes to loaders, all bets are off.
too much weight, unbalanced, and too high.....yer going over...no matter how many tires ya got.

Growing up, we had a Dexta and an 8n. Later a MF 3165 industrial, but no FE loaders. 90%+ of the work was hay field or brush-hogging. We mowed some pastures that had gone wild for over a decade. Bailing off into a briar patch that grew up over a blow-down, and was higher than your head was not the smartest thing in the world. We hit numerous logs and stumps with the front wheels that would have missed a NF, and then you would have had a rear wheel trying to climb over it, and possibly flipping the tractor.

My baby brother's best friend got chewed up by a mower when the NF dropped into a hole he didn't see and jarred his grip on the steering wheel loose.

Older and wiser now, I own 4 NF tractors, and 2 WF. And I don't drive them where I can't see.
 

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