Kinda OT, Family Messes, LONG!!!

Tractors will be mentioned later on, be patient. My older brother fell and hit his head last spring, he has permanent brain damage, COPD and probably won't last out the winter. He kept his trucking and farming business to himself, his wife knows little about any of this. Shortly after he was laid up, His wife said she needed to sell his farm machinery to pay Dr bills. I used 4 days of shutdown at work to get his machinery lined up to sell, Thanks Ronnie for coming to help. He and I sell grain thru the same elevator, Elevator owner told me his wife sold all the grain to pay bills with. After everything was lined up to sell, she told me she had to wait until after the first of the year to sell the machinery because of taxes. I'm trying my darndest not to get too involved because I know without a doubt if things don't go as she thinks they should I will get the blame. His son in law called me about Christmas time asking how much I thought Jeff's Oliver 1800 ( OK, here is the tractor part) and IH blade were worth. Rita needs money and he know a guy who wants to buy the 1800 and blade. I guessed and priced them high and then asked him why they were selling the tractor and blade if they were going to have a sale? He said Rita is thinking about just turning everything over to the bank for what he owes them. I told his son in law that if Jeff owes the bank money, the odds are about 99.9 to 1 that all the machinery is collateral for the loan and it would not be wise to sell anything without talking to the bank. He said he didn't know anything about that, but Rita needed money and he had already sold off a couple of old gravity wagons. My problem with this is Jeff and I use the same bank. He and I are not connected financially in any way, shape or form, BUT I think I should tell the banker what's going on. If Rita finds out I talked to the bank, I'm a azzhole ( I'm not much higher than that in her eyes now, so not a big deal)BUT, I have to deal with the banker and don't want to go thru the questions of how much did you know and why didn't you warn us? I think( don't know for sure and would be willing to bet 1 paycheck) that the grain she sold was meant to pay off a operating loan and the machinery won't cover the loan. I see some trouble on the horizon and I would like to stay far away from it. What would you do?? If you are a person who operates like Jeff did, keeping all his business secret, you need to make someone aware of where you stand in case something bad happens to you. He didn't expect this, he had a load to haul that day right after his DR. appointment. PLEASE!!!! Do your family a BIG favor and write a list of what you owe, who owes you and what and pending business deals, etc down somewhere your wife or kids can find it and have some idea what to do if something bad happens to you. I keep a daily log book for farm purposes, at the beginning of the year, I write down grain stored, any forward sales, loans due, inputs bought but not delivered so that if something happens to me, she can look in the book and see what goes where. I cross off the items that are completed. If this only helps one person prepare for the unexpected it will be worth it. Chris

I feel for you, your kind of between a rock and hard place. However you have to continue on with your life and do business with that banker. I would not have a problem at all with giving the banker a heads up, and your sister inlaw should be grateful also. If they bust her for selling mortgaged goods she will be in a world of hurt. Chances are if she has no idea what is going on, that her name is not on any of the notes. If they have no insurance to cover Dr. and hospital bills, she should concentrate on getting her ducks in a row for a bankruptcy.

Family stuff is always tough.

Are you involved in any way $$$ or grain or machinery with their operation? Does t sound like it.

So it comes down to, is the right thing to be honest with those around you, or is the right thing to mind your own business and let everyone else deal with the problems they create for themselves - wife for not taking care of things properly and bank for not overseeing their concerns properly....

Bet we see replies both ways.

Third option is to talk with the wife and explain things aren't being done right here, you. End to check into stuff. Sounds like that won't be met well, but might be the best attempt. Maybe at the end suggest you'll check with the bank yourself for her to see what should be done, that lets her know she either needs to get smarter if she just doesn't know, or needs to get her stuff lined up if she is trying to pull a fast one. You are junk either way anyhow so makes no real difference it sounds like.

Whether the bank gets shafted or the county pays the medical bills, you and I will be footing the bill either way sounds like not enough assets to go around so probably not a big difference how it plays out.

Boy, what a rambling mess of thoughts from me. Totally useless ain't i.

Good luck with it.

Paul

I am sort of in the same boat. Wife knows of any debts for the farm (only on vehicles at this point), but doesn't know anything about the animals. I take care of all breeding and selling of cattle and hogs and she occasionally helps with working the animals but has no interest in being in any farther. I think I tell my brother enough that he will be able to help out. That puts him in your situation, minus the debit. Wife would have no idea what to do to get ready for an auction. That just scares me to think about.

Is your brother conscious? Did I miss the part where you talked to him alone lately about what's going on? Or is his brain damage so bad that he won't understand what's going on? Not trying to be cocky,just really wondering where he stands in what's going on?
Just speaking purely for myself,if it came down to giving a heads up to the banker and folks at the elevator that I still have to work with when this is over,versus a sister in law who didn't have much use for me anyway,I'd keep my standing in the community. It sound's like either way you go,you'll be a stranger to her when this is all over anyway,so why drag yourself down for nothing.
You don't have to go in to detail with the banker or even ask him about all of your brothers business,but you might want to at least tell him he might want to check in to what's going on.

Yea, mine likes to help on the farm, but no interest in business or numbers or that sort of stuff. Not that I keep it secret or hidden - she just doesn't have any interest or attention span.

I think I have her versed in what places I do business with and prepay stuff, so she could get things figured out.

My accounting system is a shoebox to go through at the end of the year, which likely isn't helpful but as good as I can get.

Paul

Myself, I would only express my concerns directly to your sister-in-law and then stay out of it unless she asks for your help. She is the decision maker now, let her make the calls. No one will think less of you for that.

He has no short term memory, he is living 30 years in the past and if you try to correct him it doesn't connect. He remembers some people and not others that he should know. When you try to correct him he just gets angry. Dad died in 1988, but Jeff tells everyone that he had breakfast with Dad yesterday.

I can guarantee you the bank don't give a chit what happens to her so long as they get theirs.
Meaning if the machinery is held as collateral, they'll sell it all for 10 cents on the dollar if she turns it over to them and they'll still come after her for the balance. If she turns it over to them, they certainly won't be taking the time and effort to sell anything for the best price they can find or a fair market value. Your better off to notify the bank that your selling said collateral, then put the money on the loan when you get it sold. Otherwise she's just giving away any equity he's worked for.

If he has an operating loan, most likely he and the banker each have asset sheets. And yes talk to the banker!

It's a sad situation for sure. I guess it's just a judgment call on what you think your relationship will be with her when this is over if you do keep your mouth shut.
I can kind of relate with the whole thing. The wife's dad's widow called just today. She's 30 years younger than the old man was,as irresponsible as the day is long. She was filing bankruptcy when he died,had to put it all on hold when he passed away and she got his life insurance. They didn't have squat,just a mobile home in a trailer park and a car,but she was in for a fortune on credit cards.
She called today to whine that her trailer was cold,only 54 degrees. The wife asked if she didn't just get a new furnace right after the old man died? Why didn't she call them,it should be under warranty? Well......she never exactly finished paying for it. Her story is that they took her to court and the judge didn't make her pay because she wasn't working. My guess is,she was ordered to pay and still didn't.

I just wonder how many of those sob stories you'll hear from the SIL if you keep your mouth shut and she hangs herself?

I would talk to Rita...explain the (il)legalities of what she is considering. If she doesn"t know about his business, she"s probably not aware of the liability of selling mortgaged property, or the foolishness of turning over property to the banker for a quick settlement. Share your concern about the banker/elevator being left in the dark. Have the son in law present at that conversation as a witness to preclude Rita coming back at you later with a different version of what went on.

This situation is is more the norm than we care to think about,,we never consider not coming back for supper.. and the wife usually never knows enough about what is going on around her. Brothers normally know enough about each others business to help sort it out, I know me and my Brothers do, and we keep the nephews in the loop to. In reality the bank can not discuss the business of another with out consent of the other party, I know this does not carry much weight in small town banks. My thoughts are to meet with the SIL and the Son in Law and share your thoughts with them. Let them make their own dissension and leave it up to them to deal with the banker. If they want your help then it's up to you to go on to the next step,,what ever that turns out to be..

Personally, I would advise the banker that "this is what I was told" by a family member. Tell that banker that you don't really know if it is true, but you just want to give them a "Heads Up".

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I'm an old man and every Rita that I ever met during my lifetime gave me trouble! I avoid anyone named Rita if at all possible.

You just condensed everything I was trying to say in two posts,in to two short paragraphs. lol
I wish I could put things that simple.

You're right about the bank not givin a chit. Had a foreclosure not far from here and a 400 Case and DC are part of it. Tried to buy them from the bank, but they didn't want to know me and would just sell to scrap yard to get their money and be rid of it.

You do business with the same bank as your brother did. Does not sound like you will have much of a relationship after he passes on.
Loan Officer will remember your name probably for longer than your brother's. I would tell him about it, bank will probably just write it off.
Do not know if he got on Medicare and SSI. Even so any equity in crop, machinery, land is probably gone by now. That is probably their logic for selling what they can a little at a the time. If I remember from your older post, there waas not all that much money involved.

Me? I'd tell. She doesn't like me and will blame me for anything that doesn't go her way? Sorry. But that's me.

Rick

The bank can't 'discuss' anything about others' business, but they will 'listen' with interest to what you have to say. Have done that several times with doctors over the years.

Sounds like your brother should have been a bum all his life, Then the goberment will pay for everything.
Led

Likely the grain sales are a two party check yours and the bank.I have a land loan that is the way with me.

As a former bank loan officer I am saddened by all of the hostile anti-bank comments I read so frequently. Particularly against "country banks." I always tried everything possible to help borrowers out of bad situations--not always with the blessing of my superiors, but I enjoy a good reputation throughout our community. I quit the banking industry in 1987 after 32 years.

The banker and elevator manager should be confidential people you can talk to. They should not blab this business to anyone after you talk to them. However, if the bank or the elevator take action after you talk to them will SIL figure it out? I don't know the answer. I'd still talk to the banker and elevator manager.

Marilyn's sister went through a similar situation after her husband died suddenly. She didn't know what was borrowed at the bank nor did she know her husband owed his mother money. Both the bank and the mother in law came after her. The bank was good to deal with but the mother in law and one SIL were nasty. What a mess and heartache. After that I vowed to keep Marilyn in touch with every part of the finances and farming operation. Now that she is retired she pays the bills and the two of us go together to the bank to do business. I show her where all of the business documents are on the computer and we do the income tax together. Losing a spouse or having a spouse disabled is enough of a stress without having to handle financial surprises too. I wish you the best. Jim

In my opinion the right thing to do is to talk with Rita and her son-in-law and (daughter??!) and try to persuade them to go and talk with the banker, offer to go with them, explain the whole situation, and have them understand what their position is under the law. It won't get any better by trying to circumvent the bank.

Chris Check you email. I just sent you one about this deal.

I'd be old Schultz on Hogan's Heros to everyone involved "I know NOTHING!"
You can bet everything you tell to anyone will come back to bite you.
The banker is a Big Boy or should be let him handle his business.

The bank knows what happened with your brother. Tell them they should go visit Rita.

If I thought my banker would hold someone elses actions or liabilities against me I would be looking for another place to do business. It does not sound like you actually have anything concrete to report on to start with, seems like everything is hearsay and rumours, she may have weaved her Son in law a tall tale to get his help or she might be a little nuts. If your brother intentionally kept her in the dark for all these years he may have had a real good reason.

Been thinking about this situation, best I can say is do what your conscience tells you and let everyone else go. You only have to sleep with you, not anybody else. But if I was in the same shape I wouldn't have a clue about my brothers business dealings. I'd be no help at all. I haven't talked to my sister-in-law in 2-3 years so I guess she's on her own.

I suspect the bank, auctioneer and sometimes the co-op discretely handle dozens of similar situations every year with other farms, businesses and home owners. Many times these situations never become known to the public and have successful results. The bank manager will certainly listen to your concerns if you go to him, but he is probably already in contact with you sister-in-law and is already working with her in liquidating assets.

If the situation was reversed, how would you want your sister-in-law to act?

Here's why most of us don't think much of banks.

30 + years ago a country bank knew me and I could borrow money over the phone. NOW they're corporate and every decision has to go through the process that takes too long. My bank now turns over bankers so often I don't even try to know any of them. My experience for the last 20 years or so is that if I really needed the money bank would say no. When I was flush, they seem to know, they're offering me money.

Why would I go through the banks application process to buy a car when my dealer can get me approved in 30 minutes or less.

It's far easier for me to use a credit card now than going through the banks process.

Not a bank fan.

We don't keep any financial information on our computer; that makes it too easy for someone to steal all the mooney out of your accounts.

My wife is fully informed of all assets; we go to the bank together. She writes the checks, checks the balances weekly and knows where everything is.

I would talk to Rita, try and help her understand the situation she is in. I would NOT say anything to the bank unless you have explicit permission to discuss your brother's/Rita's business with them. If you do, you're in danger of getting sucked into something that you have no authority or power to resolve. Would you want someone else discussing your business with the bank without your permission?

1987 was a long time ago and the banking industry is a lot different than it was back then. Caring for your customers and trying to help them out in bad times makes you a notable exception to the rule, Sir.



Only ever knew one local banker with your attitude. As soon as her bank was bought out, she was shown the door and basically told not to let the door hit her on the way out.

My small town bank treats me very well and I don't think there are very many people they can't get along with. I have no complaints. BUT, I've seen it done to people by the big boys in the big town nearest. me. Once they loose interest in you it's every man for himself. Big banks can afford to loose customers whereas a small town bank can'tafford a bad name.

I for one am glad I'll never be in such a situation, i can't believe people are so irresponsible.
Me and my Wife are partners and although she is not involved in the day to day business of the ranch i don't keep secrets and let her know everything that is going on so she knows what to do if something would happen to me. Everything we have we own outright so that part is easy.
All bank accounts are in both names and each of us can access it independent of one other.
The only bills coming in are power gas and tel,... everything else is payed for on the spot.