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OT--gasoline engines

J

Jiles

Well-known Member
I was a certified Mechanic during the 60s and 70s. Have tried to stay somewhat up to date over the years but by no means could do the work today.
A good friend and I were talking and he asked me a question I have not give much thought to.
He said he knew that today's quality motor oil is far advanced over what we could get during that time, and he wondered if a brand new engine of that era could last as long as newer engines?
I stated that fuel injection and the electronics (computer) play a big part in the longer life of todays engines along with better oils. I could not give him an answer.
What do some of you think?
 
Well then way do things like my 1935 JD-B still run and as far as I know it has never been opened up and if it has it would have been in the 40s or 50s and it would have been my grand father who opened it up. I.E. it has been in my family since 1940
 
(quoted from post at 05:41:37 11/26/14) Well then way do things like my 1935 JD-B still run and as far as I know it has never been opened up and if it has it would have been in the 40s or 50s and it would have been my grand father who opened it up. I.E. it has been in my family since 1940
Click to expand...

You might have misunderstood my question. It is nothing to see one of todays engines with 200K miles or much more but in the early years, you was lucky to get 100K miles without an overhaul/rebuild. I have rebuild many Chevy engines with as little as 40K-50K miles to stop oil burning and replacing camshafts.
 
I don't think it is just the oil. While oil has gotten much better the entire design of modern engines has grown with it. Tolerances are tighter, materials are better, machining has advanced, and fuel injection and electronic engine control has done wonders. Back in the day a carb could not change fuel trim for temp, load, or altitude. You just found a happy spot in the middle and lived with it. Back in the day spark plugs would not go 20 K let alone the 80 to 100 they do now due to not getting fuel soaked every time they are started cold or the choke hangs up. We don't see oil dilution like we used to either due to better fuel management. Along with all that good stuff the fuels are cleaner and we don't see carbon build up near as bad. It wasn't that long ago when a vehicle hit 100 k it was time to get rid of it. The interior was falling apart, suspension was wore out, engine was starting to use oil and so on. Very few vehicles would go 150 k without an overhaul and the suspension being completely replaced and we just lived with the ratty interior falling apart. Every time I hear somebody saying "they sure don't make them like they used to" I just say Thank God.

Greg
 
By the late sixties and seventies we had good high detergent motor oil IF one chose to use it.

I don't believe the oil is the difference in our newer higher mileage vehicles. I think it's a combination of higher thermostat temps along with fuel injection and electronic ignition resulting in a cleaner burning engine. + We have enough sense now a day's to leave the air breather on!
 
I think it is a combination of things. As for motor oil itself, I think there is a big differance between now and the oils of the 40's and 50's. Maybe not so much now to the 70's. Just not quit going back far enough on oil quality there in my opinion. Another thing to factor in is the cars of the 60's and 70's were made out of some seriuos iron. Big tanks that was heavy as heck. It wore out engines just to propell them things. Newer vehicles are made out of lighter materials. Gas guzzelers were exceptable in the 70's. Not so much today. That has helped some in life expectancy. Technology, fuel injection, computerized and electrical componants, all have also played a hand in making engines last for more miles.
 
A lot of good points.Turned 129K today on a 2000 K2500 I bought 12/99.Change oil every 3000 miles and have only added oil one time between changes.Had a leaky valve cover.Took it off to clean it up and looked at the rockers.Absolutly no slug or grim.At the first oil change I put in Mobil One 5W30.I'm sold on synthetic oil.Put it in my wife's Suburban and my 2010 F150.And we do have cleaner burning gas now. For years I traded every 5 years and when I did they needed to be traded.Not no more.I wouldn't be afraid to drive my old truck coast to coast.

But that ain't to say she won't blowup tomorrow.I learned a long time ago to never say never.

Hope everyone in YT land has a safe and Happy Thanksgiving!!!
 
No, it's not just the oil. After all, it's been only recently that manufacturers started specifying synthetic oils, and many still don't require synthetics. And let's not forget that 2000 mile oil changes were the norm in the sixties, while today we regularly go 8K or more between changes.

Manufacturing methods play a big role. A friend of mine is a powertrain engineer with a major car maker. He told me they discovered that engines made at one of their overseas plants had significantly less oil consumption than those made in the US. It turns out they were using different equipment and process at the overseas plant to hone the cylinders. Even though both plants produced blocks that passed inspection, the ones produced overseas were better.

Every little bit helps: Cleaner fuel, better fuel management, better control of spark timing all contribute to longer engine life.
 
I was also a certified mechanic from the 70s through
the mid 90s and I seem to remember a huge jump in
engine reliability after going to unleaded gas. In
the days of lead it was normal to have to do a valve
job around 75k miles. After lead was eliminated it
seemed unheard of. Seeing the same thing on aircraft
engines these days when run on lead free. I also
agree, however, that there have been great strides
in oil quality.
 
This is just an opinion but I think the older engines would last longer now. My thinking is not just better oil but better air filtration. Back in the 50's, 60's and even into the 70's there were a lot more gravel and dirt roads. I also believe that people take better care of their cars nowdays. Back then there wasn't much incentive to spend on maintenance because they would rust away in a few years anyway.
 
The oil is not "much better." Just different.
Common automotive engine oil switched from the
excellent anti-wear additive ZDDP to other
additives to preserve the integrity of
emissions systems components.

Many newer oils have less metal-wear protection
then some oils did 50 years ago.

The plain fact is - modern machining methods
have much approved for mass produced engines.
More durable materials are used in high stress
areas like piston rings, valves, valve guides,
etc. Computer-controlled fuel injection keeps
engine combustion chambers MUCH cleaner.
Computer chips also avoid running with timing
too advanced and some even will be controlling
valve-timing.

The answer to your question - in my opinion is
- an old engine would not last any longer and
might even die sooner with "new" oil.
 
What you said AND what he said;
PLUS better roads, higher geared trannys, together with
better machining & materials make todays engines last longer.
IMHO, the most effective longevity enhancer was fuel injection,
which also improved mileage.
 
To answer the question, would using todays oil in yesterdays engines increase the life, my opinion, no.

Also depends on what year range we're talking about. Go back to the pre WW2 era, still lots of learning to do.

Move to the 50's-70's, you have the ability to make long lasting engines, but cost prohibitive.

The late 80's and up, technology and competition increased dramatically, fuel costs demanded more efficiency, add to that EPA regulations requiring an engine to continue to preform in compliance, it all adds up to a much better product.
 

I spent 35 years building engines at GM. I did programming and setup on gages, and worked as a supervisor at a dyno facility, among other things.

Matierals have changed comepletely over the years. Todays bore liner is made out of powdered metal, as are most rods, and some camshafts. Most crankshafts are now forged. The powdered metal parts are very tough, almost like a carbide, they resist wear very well, and are hard all the way thru, not just surface hardened like many steel parts.

Tolerances: Engine parts today are made to incredible tolerances. A crankshaft that might have had a diameter vtolerance of +/- .0015 (+/- .037 mm ) might have a tolerance of +/- .001 mm today, a reduction of over 90%.

In house repairs: When I started, every production area had repair loops, to fix things that had not been done right the first time. In the mid 90's, these all got torn out and scrapped. No repairs are allowed. If a engine isn't perfect, it gets thrown in the scrap bin. If things aren't right, production stops in a hurry. Nothing is made until things are 100% right. This drove warranty down to almost nothing.

Fuel injection: Big improvement, no fuel washing the lube out of the cylinder walls, contaminating the oil.

There are probably things I don't know about, or can't remember, but this what I can think of, right now.
 
[b:1a40552609]Spook[/b:1a40552609]---I have dealt with a lot of chainsaws that have a coating on the cylinder walls that some call NIKASIL. A very thin super hard coating.
I haven't done a lot of research but wonder if any auto/truck manufacturers are using a similar process on their aluminum blocks.
 
Many good points posted. If I were to pick one improvement; it would be the move away from the concept of break in. Newer machining methods/cylinder finish provides a ring seal without the wearing away of material. Consider the following: just picking numbers, assume that an engine may have 0.001" bore wear after 100,000 miles of service. If 0.0005" bore wear was required at break-in for a ring seal..the break-in process would have consumed 50,000 miles of service.

In 1992 the Corvette rolled off the production line pre-filled with Mobil 1. Today the list has grown significately with the move away from break-in.
 
My straight truck is a 58 GMC with the 270 inline six. It is the
original engine on no rebuild. Oil bath air cleaner. No oil filter. It
doesn't burn a drop (as far as I can tell) and gets used fully
loaded (225 bushels) once a week give or take. It is well cared
for but doesn't get to sit around.

I've had the head off for a gasket and I can tell you the casting
was a little crude. It has a rather strange defect in the block
between two cylinders that causes it to eat a head gasket
every 10 years or so. Not a crack, but a casting issue. That's
said, it runs like a watch. I think better oils and additives help
that. It probably also helps that it only has the one barrel carb,
so it isn't getting tons of fuel and washing itself to death. I
wouldn't be afraid to drive it across the country, but it would be
a slow trip and take lots of oil. Those rope seals leak like a
mother.
 
I can't speak to the wear on gasoline engines, but given what I have seen with the engine oil used by several of my customers in their diesels, the quality of the oil matters, regardless of the age of the engine.

In one of the cases I've got in mine, we opened up an engine due to a pinhole in a liner. The everything in that engine measured out to standard (ie no wear) after 12 years of hard running. Having worked in specialization at CAT for a number of years, building engines, Dad was amazed as he said no wear in that amount of hours 'did not happen'. In a second case my customer was going through turbos every 9 months to a year due to the engine going immediately to 1300 RPM on startup, and shutting down from the same speed. This caused the turbo to spool up before getting full oil pressure on startup, and left it turning after oil pressure was gone on shutdown. I got him using the same oil as the other guy mentioned, and the average turbo life went to well over 2 years. The company uses proprietary ingredients in their oils and greases, and will tell you do not put it in a brand new, rebuild engine, as it will not seat the rings. In other words run something else to break it in, and then switch to their stuff at the first oil change.

In other parts of the machine, the guy with the engine also uses the same companies oil in the other systems on his machines. I just has a main hydraulic pump rebuilt on his 345B CAT excavator a couple of years back. The guys at the pump shop were shocked to find out he had nearly 10,000 hours on the pump. They said most of those pumps averaged around half of that before neeing to be rebuilt.

In the end, regardless of what your running, a good quality oil (and grease) will do wonders when it comes to extending the life expectancy of a piece of equipment. The problem is most folks never get a a chance experience this because they sell the machine and buy another before it ever becomes an issue.
 

195F stats with a coolant temp often around 210-220. Unleaded fuel . Fuel injection. Low sulphur fuel. materials and tolerances.
The gassers are now out living the diesels in light highway applications.
 
They did away with the accelerator pump going to injection. No more gobs of gas getting pumped into and engine washing the cylinder walls clean at start up and contaminating the oil. Tractors didn't have pumps like that so not as much of a problem. Add in hardened valve seats, better metals and better oil and IMO you now have a 200 plus K engine.

Rick
 
In my earlier, poorer days when I had to drive junk, I think I had a heater or radiator hose go bad, water pump go out, fan belt break, spontaneous radiator leak, or something else to create over-heating every time I turned around. That being said, my "02" F 150 has 265,000 miles on it and aside from tires, brakes, wiper blades and a battery, has never needed anything else replaced. I think the overall improved quality of materials made in recent decades contribute to more longevity.
 
Accelerator pump was a minor issue in gas
engine carb design. Also - several farm
tractors DO indeed have them. Some Deere (3010,
3020, 4010, 4020, 500) tractors had them. My IH
farm and industrial tractors them (B275 and
3414).

A properly working accelerator pump prevents
lag when you hit the gas pedal by making up for
what would otherwise be a lean situation. That
happens because there is a time-lag in the
venturi system when the throttle is open. It
does not "wash cylinders off" as you describe.
Not when working as designed.

Most cars that I had any experience with - when
they changed from carbs to throttle-body fuel
injection - went down in MPGs, not UP. So if
anything, more fuel went unburned with the
first TBI systems.
 
GM tried that with the Vega engine in the 70's. Anodizing the
cylinder wall didn't 'work too well. New liners are cast in
powdered metal. The honing process is tightly controlled.
 
(quoted from post at 19:53:29 11/26/14) GM tried that with the Vega engine in the 70's. Anodizing the
cylinder wall didn't 'work too well. New liners are cast in
powdered metal. The honing process is tightly controlled.
Click to expand...
I don't think "anodizing" is the same as usnicom™, nicom™, nicosil, nikasil™--can you expand?
 
There are plenty of spark-ignition engines being adopted for use in big-rigs. All compressed-natural-gas that I know of. By nature a gas engine makes more power then a diesel when bore, stroke, and aspiration are equal. Main thing is price. When a big-rig can be driven for less bucks per mile then a diesel - we will see more of them using spark ignition and maybe even gasoline again. The 7.3 diesel that Ford first used in pickup trucks started life as an International Harvester gas engine for big trucks and school busses.
a175090.jpg

a175091.jpg

a175092.jpg

a175093.jpg
 
It"s not only oils that have improved. Manufacturing capability, machining processes, materials , controls and sensors, etc have a lot to do with the durability of the modern spark ignition engines. ironically a lot of todays applied technology was formulated in the early 1920"s but materials, processes, and machining plus economics did not make it feasible.

We have 1991 Toyota pickup with ~260,000 miles on it they we use daily that has never had the head off. It would be unheard of to get that type durability 50 years ago from a production automobile engine.
 
Todays engines are built to much better tolerances. When designed correctly todays gas engines will last as long or longer than previous desiel engines.

Eletronic fuel injection prevents fuel from being washed down the cylinder walls and OD everything keeps the RPMs lower.


Back when engines were carbed OD didn't help much because at lower RPMs carbs got very inefficent.
 
I always thought that these tighter tolerances used in todays engines, were made possible, in part, by the improved modern day oils.
 

The Vega engine was before my time, so I really don't know too much other than it had some sort of coating on a aluminmum bore. I really don't know much about the smaller engines or coatings. I had a Vega, it was great until I had 40K on it, then it simply pumped oil, I saw the oil turn jet black, and it was always black after that. I ended up using 1 qt of oil per day or 100 miles, whichever came first.
 
Computerized fuel injection absolutely contributes to longer life on oil and engine. It significantly cuts the excess carbon which is abrasive.
 
They ARE basically gasoline engines. Just happen to be using CNG because of price, incentives, or whatever. With today's tech - I assume a gas engine could compete with a diesel with big rigs IF the price of diesel stayed 20% higher then gasoline.
 
(quoted from post at 11:53:29 11/26/14) GM tried that with the Vega engine in the 70's. Anodizing the
cylinder wall didn't 'work too well. New liners are cast in
powdered metal. The honing process is tightly controlled.
Click to expand...

The Vega did not use an anodized cylinder coating. The block was cast of high silcon aluminmum. After the bore was finished to size, the aluminum was etched away leaving the silcon to provide a hard wear resistance surface for the piston/ring pack to run on. The early Vegas had other issues resulting in oil burning. The later models could run up some high mileage - I worked with a guy that commuted to work in Vega with some 200,000 miles on the clock. It had never been apart.
 


I have serious doubts about any vega making it to 200K miles.Even with 2,3 or even more engine rebuilds,here in NYS the body would have rotted off long before 200K miles!
 
I think getting the lead out of gasoline was one of the most
significant things. I remember what the oil looked like in the drain
pan back then and now on a shorter drain cycle too. Just a lot
cleaner dirty oil.

Mark
 

IMO, as others have said, it's not just the oils. I think if you took a high quality engine from the 40's, 50's or 60's and built it to todays tolerances, with modern materials, using a modern hot ignition and modern filtration you'd have one that would last like todays engines. I know that my ancient old 2 strokes from the 50's and 60's (chainsaws and tillers) respond very well to our improved oils. I think my 1940's Gravelys would respond as well if I could renew the engines to tighter tolerances.

That is the one place where todays cars excel I think, longevity. That is due, IMO, to competition from the likes of Honda and Toyota. Anyone driving a mid 70's to late 80's domestic vehicle can recall when quality was pretty iffy and lemons were common.
 
The change over to low-tension piston rings have made a big difference as well. It reduced the largest area of friction in the engine and kept the cylinder walls from wearing beyond the ability of the rings to seal. When I started rebuilding engines years ago, you had to use a ridge reamer just to be able to get the piston out of the bore. Now, there is no ridge and you can still see the factory crosshatch on the walls after 100k miles.
 
I'm sure the fact the electronic fuel management system prevents flooding/overchoking the engines when they are cold helps a lot to reduce bore wear, as well.
 
Remember the old GM Quadrajet fiasco's on a cold morning. If it didn't belch black explosive vapor out the tail pipe for the first few minutes, something must have been wrong with it.

Then there was that infamous "manifold heat riser" spring loaded valve that always stuck shut and caused you to burn the center exhaust valves on both banks of the engine.

Yeah they just don't build them like they used to. Pitty; such a pity.

Mark
 
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