Engineering question

37chief

Well-known Member
Location
California
The neighbor across from Mom's place installed a sewer main about 12 years ago. He had plans approved by the city. The neighbor had a contractor install the 8 inch sewer main. Now there is a problem with the flow to the main line, because the contractor installed the line about one foot too high which was not what the plans called for. The city said it is not their problem the line was installed a foot too high, and not as the plans called for. I know each city has different regulations, but shouldn't the inspector working for city making the city somewhat responsible? One parcel is for sale, and this could effect the sale because if there isn't good flow from the house lateral to the main, a sewer pump may be needed. Another annoying thing the original installer wants 18,000.00 to pay back Mom's share for installing the line. I already paid that for hooking up the old house on the property which was well above the line, and no flow issues. Any thoughts? Stan
 
Heck even us little guys out here doing your own septic work have to get a sewer permit and then have the inspector sign off on it before we can finish up and cover it up.
 
I've been digging for plumbers for about 16 years. I don't know why there would be a flow problem with the pipe 1 foot too high if they ran the pipe at required fall then 45' d or 90' d it down into the main they were connecting to. Normal fall for a sewer pipe around here is 1/8 inch to no more than 1/4 inch per foot. Any steeper than that and "they" say that the solids get left behind.
By no means am I an expert. Just saying what I know (right or wrong)
 
Lawyer.

So, a line got put in 1 foot too high 12 years ago.

Your mom got billed for a portion of $18,000 now?

And the line in too high has t been a problem, but it will be if some property is sold.

I think we'd need more info to really figure that out.

I don't doubt there are problems, I'm just not sure what the problem actually is.

The city should be responsible for enforcing their codes that they inspect, so they should be riding the other party's rear.

The private party that hired this is responsible, and should get after the outfit that installed it wrong.

After 12 years, a lot of things get forgotten and left for others to deal with; ain't right but how it goes.

Rereading it several times, it sounds like several neighbors including your mom got together (loosely, not always everyone on the same page...) 12 years ago and put in a shared sewer submain to the city's main, did so privately.

Things were messed up and your mom never paid and we are 12 years later, no one bothered to sort out?

Paul
 
Can only say one thing here, poop does not flow up hill.... The city was wrong, but they also do not care. Unfortunately it will be on you and or others that need to use that line... goverment is wonderful isn't it?
 
The city is not going to correct this. Neither is the contractor.

Do not expect much other than legal fees from a lawyer after 12 years.

Dean
 
As it was explained to me by a plumber--There has to be 1 inch fall per 4 feet of run for the poop to flow correctly. If there is too much fall the fluid runs away from the solids and if there is too little fall everything moves so slowly that the solids settle out and stick to the bottom. Apparently sometimes the fall can be reduced by half and everything works, key words is "sometimes". When that is seems to be unknown.

In your case the inspector screwed up or was bought off. The only way your going to get this straightened out is with a lawyer. Except the contractor wants more money---hummmm. Opportunity knocks.
You also say you paid this off 12 years ago so what is the rationale for the bill now? Is it legitimate? If so you have a negotiating lever if not then you will have to sue and make the county/city inspector's office part of the suit. And a lawyer has to take the job. Don't forget to include in the suit the lawyer's fee.
 
Who inspected the work?
Who signed off on the work before payment?
That is who I would have my lawyer go after.
 
Who signed off on the line when it was installed? If the city signed off, then the city OWNS it, period. If someone else signed off... then they're in the hotseat... lol
I think you need a lawyer more than an engineer...

Rod
 
I'm on my towns sewage council and I can tell you it depends on how it was inspected. It should have been inspected and signed before it was covered. Who ever signed that paper is the one responsible. We had a few issues but they were more people putting storm water into our sewage system and causing some problems and it came down to who signed the inspections.
 
just about every municipality has a hold harmless clause that no matter what they pass inspection on they are not responsible.It is always upon the owner/contractor to do it right or fix the problems.
I had a couple of county inspectors working for me who OK"d a whole set of bridge beams but they were not properly made and i rejected the whole set---the contractor had to make good and fabricate another set.
 
If Mom had paid the fee 12 years ago it was around 9,000.00 I paid 18,000.00 to be able to connect my daughters house a few weeks ago the extra was 9K interest for 12 years @ 12%. Now if someone wants to buy the other lot they owe another 18.000.00. Stan
 
Forget about getting the city or contractor to correct the issue; that is not going to happen. Anybody who wants to tie into that line will need a lift station if their property is too low.
 
That is a seemingly odd situation, with a result of defective or unacceptable work, (incorrect invert elevation, incorrect pipe elevation).

I am very familiar with and have at times specialized in dealing with similar situations. Obviously, the design documents do not match what was actually installed, for whatever reason, and or under what circumstances? It's extremely odd that a municipality would acknowledge a defect such as this, and no action was taken initially. To me, it makes absolutely no sense. Said municipality has a gravity type sanitary system for example, which would likely have been professionally designed, and installed to meet the design shown on their documents, by a contractor through the competitive bidding process, resulting in a contract award to perform/install the specified work, all per contract documents that should clearly provide all details and provisions. ( yes there may be unforseen conditions and its likely that the municipality has an indemnity clause in the contract, as well as insurance, bonding and similar requirements - its usually "boiler plate")
In this scenario, typically the contractor would be liable and would not receive payment for defective work that is discovered through the inspection process.

Say that above sanitary system was initially installed at one point, prior to this 8" line you speak I'll call it an extension to the main system, and it sounds as if it was to provide service to a small section of the municipality. A private entity is involved and manages the process, at some point the contractor submits a design, or has their engineer provide it, to submit it to the municipality for approval, which was likely done by the plan examiner and compared to the existing infrastructure for compatibility, coordination, and all other important aspects that must be reviewed prior to granting approval. Said contractor receives the approved plans and commences work.

Who was inspecting the work as it proceeded ????

Who checked invert elevations in the field ????

Was the entire job completed, then the city inspector discovered the defective work ?

The municipality would more than likely never accept any defective work, especially with a gravity type sanitary system. So the owner would have to have been notified, (the one who hired the contractor)

What was the owners arrangement with the contractor ?????

It would be common sense for any owner to hold the contractors money until the work was substantially completed, meaning when the defective work was discovered and typically by virtue of contract documents, the contractor should or would have been liable to either correct the work, make it acceptable, and then receive payment or their contract is terminated, the money, bond, insurance etc. provides the means to complete the contract successfully, correcting the defective work. Often times the contract will call for a bond, and if used, the bonding company will bring in their contractor to complete the work, something I have been directly involved in on a $200M courthouse in Queens NY. I know the process well enough and it can be a real mess depending on the situation.

Rereading your post, the contractor is still in existence, and 12 years later wants additional money or wants to get paid for work defective and unacceptable work done 12 years ago ???? This makes no sense to me at all. I'd pay nothing at all, how can you pay for defective work, then consider the cost of correcting the problem at the house with the flow problem, requiring a pump or similar means to avoid excavation and correcting the real problem. The contractor needs to correct all defective work, prior to even considering payment being released or is how I would see it ?

The engineering aspect of this is long since over, and the only relevant detail, per what you told us, is the defective work, ie; incorrect invert and or pipe elevations. Its all legal now, claims and lawsuits, but with the city indemnified, and the alleged contractor off site for 12 years, it may be difficult or impossible to obtain any compensation to correct the defective work. I used to be pretty good at preparing documents and doing the initial leg work to provide documentation for claims to substantiate or discredit samw, but that was always done while the job site was still active or before the substantial completion, 12 years later..... that is a real quandary !

One of the first outfits I worked for as an operator and or laborer at times, always during pipe work, we had a subcontract to install 1000' of 8" sanitary pipe with manholes, to connect to an existing town sewer system. It was laid out per the plans, the elevations established with an optical level, (transit level) and pipe laser aligning pipe with a target insuring each section of pipe was at the correct elevation, including 1/8" per foot slope. The owner of the company was relatively young, we were both in our mid 20's, but he had a lot of experience as his family was part of a large heavy/highway construction company, before some odd falling out occurred. They went in business on their own. Reason I mention it, was we had some very serious problems on that job, soil was all fine sand, the owner prior to, had done many miles of similar pipe work.

The 1000' with manholes was installed, camera inspection noted a problem, there was a significant sag in the new line, and we were held accountable to excavate that section and correct the problem. There is a lot more to this, but it was a difficult job with the sand and high water table, somehow it sagged, but it was corrected soon after. It's well known too, I went to a job interview with a contractor in that area a few yeas back, and he remembered that job specifically, and what happened there being in the same town. That line is still in service today.
 
Agreed. 12 years after the fact no one is going to pay for this. If it had been found within a year of installation you would have a case against the contractor.

If you raise to much fuss instead of helping you the city might issue code violation citation for the line being installed wrong.
 
Chief,I have workd for a psd {public service distric}for 24 years now in the state of WV.In our state once the PSD accepts sewer or revenue through that line it becomes the responsibility of the municipality or PSD to maintain the line.If sewer spills occurs it becomes a Health Dept issue

jimmy
 

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