People of the Phillipines, I have returned

Ultradog MN

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Today, 70 years ago, in the early morning hours, 100,000 troops from the the Army's 10th and 24th Corps wade ashore on Leyte. They are almost unopposed.
By 1 PM the area is secure enough that General MacArthur also wades ashore to take command of all forces from the ground.
One of his first orders of business is to announce to the people of the Phillipines that after the humiliating defeat 2 1/2 years earlier, as promised then, American forces have returned to liberate them from Japanese control.
The great and terrible battles of Leyte have begun.

p13.jpg
 
Well some of the history written about that event was a personal vendetta on the part of Gen. Mac. to recover his pride in getting run off in the first place. These sources say that it could have easily been bypassed on the US route to Japan.

However, to those who were liberated it was surely a blessing, especially for those who survived the Bataan death march. But to those who didn't make it and for their loved ones it was a shame.

One of the inspiring things about those areas and times were the spotters, I think most were Aussies, that were in remote locations on the islands sending valuable information back to the allies. Being caught by the enemy was out of the question especially when the enemy were constantly looking for them with ground troops and radio receivers and directional antennas.

Mark
 
"With the help of God and a few other Marines, McArthur returned to the Philippines".

Seriously, once as a young Marine, I was in the same squadron with a Master Sergeant who had survived the Bataan Death March. He had his good days and his bad days, and everyone just let him do his own thing.
 
My daddy was getting on the ship to go to to Corregidor and at the last minute was ordered to report to the Aleutian islands to defend it against air attack. For as long as I knew him every morning and every night he was at the foot of his bed on one knee giving thanks.

Mark
 
" I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." Gen Douglas Macarthur
 
Got a neighbor that started that march & escaped to join the Phillipine Scouts. He was 16 at the time & when liberated joined the US Army, retiring with over 45 years of service. He can tell some stories IF prodded enough.
 
US forces were faced with the dilemma of securing either Formosa (Tiawan) or the Philippines before moving on to attack Japan. No one even considered attacking Japan without securing at least one.

Nimitz initially supported securing Formosa and bypassing the Philippines but changed his mind once learning of the estimated manpower requirements for securing Formosa, which would not be available in the South Pacific until the war in Europe has ended.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 06:07:50 10/20/14) Well some of the history written about that event was a personal vendetta on the part of Gen. Mac. to recover his pride in getting run off in the first place. These sources say that it could have easily been bypassed on the US route to Japan.

However, to those who were liberated it was surely a blessing, especially for those who survived the Bataan death march. But to those who didn't make it and for their loved ones it was a shame.

One of the inspiring things about those areas and times were the spotters, I think most were Aussies, that were in remote locations on the islands sending valuable information back to the allies. Being caught by the enemy was out of the question especially when the enemy were constantly looking for them with ground troops and radio receivers and directional antennas.

Mark

Got run off? There was no general officer, in any army that given the overwhelming superiority of the enemy forces, supply situation and general lack of any support who could of held the Philippian Islands at the time He was ordered out of the islands. Had the Navy been able to supply him with equipment, food, ammo, replacement personnel plus secured the sea area around the islands then he could have held.

Ike and his lower commanders underestimated the Germans and that lead to the Battle of The Bulge. Mistake on their part. Mac was a victim of a small military forced by the civilian government and antiquated naval thinking. Once the navy was in shambles there was just no way to support mac or his troops. Add in factors like the P40's assigned to Mac were hopelessly outclassed by the Zero and no support other than what could be brought in by sub and the forces in the Philippians were doomed before the first shot was fired. That they held out as long as they did was spectacular! My wife's one grand father was a Death March survivor and spent a couple of years in Japan as forced labor. I'm not a big Mac fan but don't like to see him unjustly faulted for the Philippian Islands falling.

Yes by that time there was little military value in taking those islands. Some claim that it cut the Japanese oil supply but that was already done for the most parts by the subs. The only real advantage was it allow the navy to destroy most of what was left of the Japanese fleet eliminating that threat. However that does not detract from the sacrifices or courage of the soldiers, sailors and Marines who were ordered to take those islands.

Rick
 
Australian General Blamey, who worked with Mac in the early years of the war and knew him well has been quoted as saying:
"The best and the worst things you hear about Mac are both true."
Mac did have some foresight.
Then colonel Dwight Eisenhower was his chief of staff in the Phillipines prior to the war.
When Ike left for a staff position in Washington in mid 41 Mac gave high recommendation for Ike's fitness as an officer. He said Ike had all the makings of a man who was suitable for the highest levels of command - both militry and civilian.
 
In no way am I denigrating the importance and significance of this moment, but it occurred to me that this was probably the first time in the war that any member of this entourage got their feet wet. The real heroes had already gone ashore and locked the place down (no photo available.)
 
The General is also quoted as having said: "Eisenhower? The best aid I've ever had."

Dean
 
The photo posted above is a staged photo (is the Iwo Jima photo).

MacArthur and his entourage had come asore earlier.

Those who believe that MacArthur was unwilling to get his feet wet, simply do not know history.

Dean
 
Corregidor is on my wish list of places to visit.

I wonder how things would have turned out if MacArthur had crossed the Yellow river.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4EqRTWMVqMY

Watch this video of Douglas Macarthur on board the USS Missouri for the surrender of Japan.

When the USA was at it's best.
Proud to be an American watching this.
 
I wasn't impugning McArthur's courage or his credentials as a soldier/warrior. Those traits were in his genes. And, I concede that sometimes it takes great egos to achieve great things.
 
Oh yes, Palo Leyte, very nice place, not so much after last years typhoon, very nice memorial there on the very same spot of the beach to see, just up the road is the Palo Cathedral that was used as a field hospital, several other spots that are harder to find, one is the battle of "break neck ridge", there are a couple others, December 7, 1944 they invaded the west side of Leyte south of Ormoc City, the USS Ward sits on the bottom of Ormoc Bay, remnants of the war are all around if you know what to look for, between there and Corrigidor there is a lot of very interesting things to see, google fort drum manila, or Corrigidor and look at some of the pictures, nothing short of amazing, we have a house north east of Ormoc City so we spend a lot of time looking around there, I never get tired looking to find what's left, little by little this is being forgotten, I only wish I could post some pictures, I just hope this in never forgotten.
 
Wish I could find the picture of the sign they put up on the beach in Palo, "With the help of God, and a few Marines, MaCarther returned to the Philippines", believe me I have asked around for years and I don't believe the sign exists anymore, probably used for something else and rotted away, but there are pictures of that sign around, from the pictures I have seen it looks to be on the short road from the beach to Palo Cathedral, where they made the left turn across the island.
 
the defense was so tough that the Japanese were 4 months behind schedule in taking the area. This caused Gen. Homma to be fired & returned to Japan.
 
(quoted from post at 20:39:11 10/20/14) the defense was so tough that the Japanese were 4 months behind schedule in taking the area. This caused Gen. Homma to be fired & returned to Japan.

At the tail end of the defense the troops were on 1/8 rations and a "effective" (soldier who could fight) was a soldier who could carry his rifle 100 yards and still be able to fire it. That should give everyone an idea just how poor of shape they were in overall. After the attack on Pearl Harbor the Navy just couldn't escort a convoy in to provide the resupply and replacements that were needed. The troops, mostly under Mac's leadership did a magnificent job. The lagers part of the blame for what happened was the battleship admirals who were all of the senior brass up to Dec 7th refusal to understand air power at sea. Dec 7th marked the beginning of the end the battleship navy. What few assets we had at that time could not be risk to support Mac and his troops.

Rick
 
MacA had a god complex 2nd to none. He did good stuff and some lousy, ignorant things. He was a classic example of being your own worst enemy. But the had a great group of men in front of him doing the fighting.
 
(quoted from post at 04:20:43 10/21/14) MacA had a god complex 2nd to none. He did good stuff and some lousy, ignorant things. He was a classic example of being your own worst enemy. But the had a great group of men in front of him doing the fighting.

Actually he was at the front pretty often. There is ample testimony to that. Sure not every guy saw him on the lines but the records show he was up there some. Not in the same way that Chesty Puller was but then when Puller was up on the line he wasn't wearing stars. Yes, he was considered arrogant but was also considered a military genius. When the Japanese invaded the islands he pulled his men back to the Bataan Peninsula that was good defensible terrain instead of trying to fight a delaying action in terrain that favored the enemy. He could also be petty. Like every man he had faults.

I don't care how good of men you have if you are a poor leader they don't perform well. They are many examples of that in military history. A great leader can get poor performers to perform well while a poor leader can destroy a good fighting force fast, and not by getting them killed, just by destroying their will to succeed. And it doesn't take long for troops to figure out a leader.

Rick
 
If he hadn't violated his orders and moved most of his supplies out of Corregidor, those supplies would have been available to the troops when they fell back. Instead our army's supplies were captured and used by the Japanese.

MacArthur's HQ was informed of the attack on Pearl Harbor and did not notify the air bases under his command, as a result when they were attacked hours later the planes were still on the ground, the crews unaware that we were now at war.
 
(quoted from post at 13:50:52 10/20/14) Today, 70 years ago, in the early morning hours, 100,000 troops from the the Army's 10th and 24th Corps wade ashore on Leyte. They are almost unopposed.
By 1 PM the area is secure enough that General MacArthur also wades ashore to take command of all forces from the ground.
One of his first orders of business is to announce to the people of the Phillipines that after the humiliating defeat 2 1/2 years earlier, as promised then, American forces have returned to liberate them from Japanese control.
The great and terrible battles of Leyte have begun.

<img src="http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/leyte/p13.jpg">
My Dad was there on an LST when we dropped the "Big One". If things had gone differently I, and quite a few others might not be here. One of my Father in law's shipmates (Both of them D-day survivors) was there at the same time.
 
(quoted from post at 14:03:29 10/21/14) If he hadn't violated his orders and moved most of his supplies out of Corregidor, those supplies would have been available to the troops when they fell back. Instead our army's supplies were captured and used by the Japanese.

MacArthur's HQ was informed of the attack on Pearl Harbor and did not notify the air bases under his command, as a result when they were attacked hours later the planes were still on the ground, the crews unaware that we were now at war.

Do you really believe that the Chief of Staff of the army was ordering Mac or any other senior commander where to store their supplies? And with the Japanese having complete air supremacy just how were those supplies supposed to get to the troops? (read about air power below before responding to that) They darn sure were not going to get them across the water with air attacks and Japanese patrol boats out and about. Plus when they really needed those supplies there were very few boats left and none of any size left to transport them. With the troop numbers those supplies would be counted in tons per day needed. Plus Mac did inform his subordinate commanders that Pearl had been attacked. That's a matter of record. All his air commanders could do was keep a combat air patrol up for what little go that would have done. Want to know more about the Zero? Joe Foss, Marine fighter pilot, when ask how to fight a ZERO with an F4F after he was a double ace replied something to the effect if it's one on one, run, you are outnumbered. Foss was later awarded the MOH.

Marshal was occupied with approving updated war plans and trying to fight for money for the Army. Now, think about the time. Most military commanders had little idea of air power. That includes Mac, Marshal and even the senior naval officers. Plus most of the aircraft lost were obsolete. The P40 War hawk and the Navy's new F4F were obsolete. Heck, the first attack launched against the Japanese fleet at Midway included Marine Brewster Buffalo bi wing fighters. Macs air could have done little if anything so he really didn't loose much. Besides where were they supposed to be? You can't keep them in the air 24/7. To have them airborne Mac would have had to know that an attack was inbound. Kinda hard when the Japanese could launch far out to sea. The Zero had a lot more range than the P40. It's easy knowing what we know today to set back and sharp shoot Mac or any other commander in WWII. It wasn't too long beforehand that Billy Mitchel was forced out of the US Army Air Corp because he was saying things about aircraft capabilities that the senior brass didn't believe. Even after he proved that aircraft could sink a battleship the brass told him "that one was at anchor, no way you could hit a ship maneuvering". Basically Mac and other commanders thought the airplane was more of a recon device than anything really important. In fact on Dec 6 1941 almost every senior commander in the entire US military knew aircraft couldn't sink a battleship! Sure Mac was told that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor but I bet he had few details except that battleship row was virtually gone.

Now, please explain to me why or how you store enough supplies on the rock to supply 40,00 plus men or distribute them from there fighting a defensive action? Supplies back then were stored near troop concentrations. Moving those supplies, by the ton mind you was a much bigger job back then when they had to be loaded and unloaded by hand. Had they been stored on the rock prior to the attack they would have had to had a daily supply ship/barges loaded and unloaded to be reloaded onto trucks to be distributed at their final destination. That makes about as much sense as a screen hatch on a sub. Don't take that as a criticism. There has been a great deal written about Mac, some trying to be objective, some praising him like he could do no wrong and some that try to paint him a pure evil. I try to be objective. Most US military commanders in WWII did a fine job overall but all had short comings.

There is a lot of info on IKE that make him sound pretty bad but he did what he was supposed to do, make the alliance work! But he's been accused of having an affair with a British woman who at the time was a SGT that he allegedly had commissioned into the US Army as an officer to be his driver. I don't know if that's true but I've read about that from several different sources.

I do know that when Mac was the military governor of Japan after the war he was accused of being extremely arrogant to the point that enlisted men were making jokes about it. He was blamed for the state of the US army troops sent to Korea to stem the tide when war broke out there. That darn sure wasn't his fault. There simply was no money. When there is no money there is no training. Plus the defense budget had been cut so bad by then that most Army units were about 3/4ths authorized strength. Heck when the Marines were ordered to Korea they had to strip the 2nd Div to fill out the 1st to war time strength. Then they had to call up the entire Marine reserve to fill out the 2nd division. There were a lot of people to blame for the state of the military right before WWII and Korea. They are called politicians. They are the ones who refused to keep up on national defense. Heck right now they want to bring the US Army down to 400,000 active duty. The same levels we were at before 9/11. Back when they (elder Bush and Clinton both) claimed we could fight a 2 fronted war at those levels. Over 60% of that number are support troops. Only about 85,000 are actually in combat jobs.

Rick
 
Anyone looking at the run up to WW2 can clearly see the signals in the Pacific were simply ignored. Everyone was focused on Hitler, Mussolini was a national hero- IN THE USA!, and Churchill was accused of trying to drag us into a war that was none of our business. There were very few military leaders that saw the threat either, or at least that went public about it. The Japanese were all near sighted little buck toothed men about 5 foot tall that had 1880's era equipment, or so the US was told at the time. There was no way they would ever dare move on the US, they were too far away, didn't have the tech, didn't want to move on us. It's the same thing we were told about the nnalert radicals and the communists before that.

Arrogance, hubris and a lack of appreciation for the enemy. Always a fatal combination.
 
(quoted from post at 15:53:49 10/21/14)
(quoted from post at 04:20:43 10/21/14) MacA had a god complex 2nd to none. He did good stuff and some lousy, ignorant things. He was a classic example of being your own worst enemy. But the had a great group of men in front of him doing the fighting.

Actually he was at the front pretty often. There is ample testimony to that. Sure not every guy saw him on the lines but the records show he was up there some. Not in the same way that Chesty Puller was but then when Puller was up on the line he wasn't wearing stars. Yes, he was considered arrogant but was also considered a military genius. When the Japanese invaded the islands he pulled his men back to the Bataan Peninsula that was good defensible terrain instead of trying to fight a delaying action in terrain that favored the enemy. He could also be petty. Like every man he had faults.

I don't care how good of men you have if you are a poor leader they don't perform well. They are many examples of that in military history. A great leader can get poor performers to perform well while a poor leader can destroy a good fighting force fast, and not by getting them killed, just by destroying their will to succeed. And it doesn't take long for troops to figure out a leader.

Rick

I have yet to read anything that McA did that moves him into the genius class. Rommel was a genius, Yamamoto, Guderian, Halsey maybe. OTOH, I have read a lot of what MacA said about himself that promoted him as a genius. Sorry, I just don't see it. He made some good decisions and some poor ones. Above all else he had the pedigree and personality to present himself as a genius. He was brave in his youth but he belonged to an earlier era where the blue bloods sent the cannon fodder into the fight while they directed the drama. I know he made good moves in addition to bad, but I don't see him so much as a great general as a self promoting emperor in waiting.
 
Wasn't part of that decision based upon availability of land based bombers that close to mainland China which the enemy controlled somewhat. I think the British learned that lesson at Singapore.

Mark
 
I just finished reading a book about Rommel and Montgomery, parallel men (of a sort). Was interesting reading.

In the book the British arthur indicated that Eisenhower was not selected for his battle knowledge as he apparently had little to none. He was selected because he was an organizer, politician if you will, (later made the President's office didn't he) and an organizer was needed to get all the variables of the Allied Forces combined into a homogenous fighting outfit.......and control Monte. Ha!

Ikes domain was "The European Theater of Operations" so I don't know where he and Mac crossed paths anyway. Don't know much of Mac other than the Pacific Theater of Operations. Course I didn't read his Biography.

Mark
 
That's what I got from the book I just read about Rommel and Montgomery. Both had such and did with such. But for Ike he had to control Monty. Rommel was Hitler's problem.

Mark
 
The "Unconditional" surrender was scoffed at due to the fact that the Emperor remained in power. I think Mac, as the caretaker of Japan made a wise move in leaving him in power. From what I know of it it was Mac's choice, not a condition of the surrender. Surely there would have been mass pandemonium in the country and a lot of GI's live could have been lost in trying to control the mobs had we executed or imprisoned the country's Emperor, especially with the country being steeped in tradition as it was.

Mark
 
(quoted from post at 04:37:28 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 15:53:49 10/21/14)
(quoted from post at 04:20:43 10/21/14) MacA had a god complex 2nd to none. He did good stuff and some lousy, ignorant things. He was a classic example of being your own worst enemy. But the had a great group of men in front of him doing the fighting.

Actually he was at the front pretty often. There is ample testimony to that. Sure not every guy saw him on the lines but the records show he was up there some. Not in the same way that Chesty Puller was but then when Puller was up on the line he wasn't wearing stars. Yes, he was considered arrogant but was also considered a military genius. When the Japanese invaded the islands he pulled his men back to the Bataan Peninsula that was good defensible terrain instead of trying to fight a delaying action in terrain that favored the enemy. He could also be petty. Like every man he had faults.

I don't care how good of men you have if you are a poor leader they don't perform well. They are many examples of that in military history. A great leader can get poor performers to perform well while a poor leader can destroy a good fighting force fast, and not by getting them killed, just by destroying their will to succeed. And it doesn't take long for troops to figure out a leader.

Rick

I have yet to read anything that McA did that moves him into the genius class. Rommel was a genius, Yamamoto, Guderian, Halsey maybe. OTOH, I have read a lot of what MacA said about himself that promoted him as a genius. Sorry, I just don't see it. He made some good decisions and some poor ones. Above all else he had the pedigree and personality to present himself as a genius. He was brave in his youth but he belonged to an earlier era where the blue bloods sent the cannon fodder into the fight while they directed the drama. I know he made good moves in addition to bad, but I don't see him so much as a great general as a self promoting emperor in waiting.

I said that he was considered a military genius by some. I don't feel that way about him. In the "old days" the "blue bloods" lead from the front when they were small unit commanders clear up to and including brigade level. Division commanders were often WIA/KIA right up to WWI. At some point they decided that leaders would lead from behind. But if you look at effective battle field commanders the best either were on the front a lot or actually lead from the front. 2 excellent examples were Chesty Puller and Rommel. Both lead from the front. Makes a big difference if the commander actually knows what's going. Leading from the rear they are relying on reports to paint the picture. I don't know. The plan for defending the Bataan Peninsula was his and was good enough that the Japanese commander during the US invasion fell back and defended the same area. I too think that he was a self important egotist. And Guderian was the genius of the German armor tactics. Rommel was a very adept pupil and a fantastic battlefield commander.

I just don't like it when people outright attack anyone without hard evidence to back up their claims. So often I wind up defending Mac even though I don't think he was all that much.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 05:55:49 10/22/14) I just finished reading a book about Rommel and Montgomery, parallel men (of a sort). Was interesting reading.

In the book the British arthur indicated that Eisenhower was not selected for his battle knowledge as he apparently had little to none. He was selected because he was an organizer, politician if you will, (later made the President's office didn't he) and an organizer was needed to get all the variables of the Allied Forces combined into a homogenous fighting outfit.......and control Monte. Ha!

Ikes domain was "The European Theater of Operations" so I don't know where he and Mac crossed paths anyway. Don't know much of Mac other than the Pacific Theater of Operations. Course I didn't read his Biography.

Mark

Mark at one time Ike was on Mac's staff. Mac did like a staff that almost worshiped him. Ike apparently didn't so he wasn't Mac's favorite.

And very true. It's likely that had WWII been avoided Ike would never have been promoted to general. Same is true with Patton. He was too flamboyant for a peace time Army.

As far a Monty was concerned he was a brilliant planner but wasn't a particularly good battlefield commander. Most of his problem was the Brits relieved senior commanders right and left before he took over in Egypt. Most unjustly because they lost major battles where the supply and replacement problems had them so weak that all they could do is pull back. Because of that Monty was more concerned with not loosing than he was with winning. If you look at the desert war there were several times he halted an attack when he had Rommel on the ropes. Mostly because he was worried about supply lines. While he was waiting to bring more supplies up Rommel was able to pull back, get resupplied and go back on the offensive.

One thing a good battlefield commander has the ability to do in adapt to a changing situation. A good example was commanders in Desert Storm were stopping at their first days objectives and reporting in that they had secured said objective. As early as 9:30 AM. Storming Norman and Franks had to order them to keep moving. Some units made their 4th or 5th day objectives on day one. But only because they were pushed. Rommel and Patton would both do that. Achieve an objective and instead of giving the enemy time to regroup and dig in they kept pushing keeping the enemy off balance. Monty on the other hand would have his troops stop to take on replacements and supplies. They train that when reaching an objective stop to reorganize and resupply before moving on. But there are clearly times when that should be tossed aside and the attack continued.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 05:45:59 10/22/14) Wasn't part of that decision based upon availability of land based bombers that close to mainland China which the enemy controlled somewhat. I think the British learned that lesson at Singapore.

Mark

The whole campaign against the Japanese was aimed at getting into decent bomber range of the Japanese home islands and establishing a staging area for an invasion. At one time the plan was to take the Philippians then Formosa with the idea that staging for an invasion would be in Formosa. By the time Mac went back to the Philippians that idea had been put aside for the more direct route that we followed. So basically letting Mac (the army and navy were against that plan as being unnecessary) take the Philippians was a political decision made by the president and yes Roosevelt directly intervened to make it happen. The only strategic advantage gained by retaking the Philippians was that it cause the Japanese to expend assets that they really couldn't afford by that time. By then a bypassed island chain was pretty much contained. The Japanese had no means of supporting those trapped on those islands so any men and equipment was lost just as effectively as if they were crushed in combat.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 10:01:37 10/22/14) That's what I got from the book I just read about Rommel and Montgomery. Both had such and did with such. But for Ike he had to control Monty. Rommel was Hitler's problem.

Mark

Ike couldn't control Degaul or Patton either. If he'd been able to control Degaul a lot of GI's probably would have lived longer. Patton was a loose cannon no matters what. Not so much brilliant as driven IMO. He was also pretty lucky, but "luck favors the bold", eh?
 
(quoted from post at 11:28:17 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 05:55:49 10/22/14) I just finished reading a book about Rommel and Montgomery, parallel men (of a sort). Was interesting reading.

In the book the British arthur indicated that Eisenhower was not selected for his battle knowledge as he apparently had little to none. He was selected because he was an organizer, politician if you will, (later made the President's office didn't he) and an organizer was needed to get all the variables of the Allied Forces combined into a homogenous fighting outfit.......and control Monte. Ha!

Ikes domain was "The European Theater of Operations" so I don't know where he and Mac crossed paths anyway. Don't know much of Mac other than the Pacific Theater of Operations. Course I didn't read his Biography.

Mark

Mark at one time Ike was on Mac's staff. Mac did like a staff that almost worshiped him. Ike apparently didn't so he wasn't Mac's favorite.

And very true. It's likely that had WWII been avoided Ike would never have been promoted to general. Same is true with Patton. He was too flamboyant for a peace time Army.

As far a Monty was concerned he was a brilliant planner but wasn't a particularly good battlefield commander. Most of his problem was the Brits relieved senior commanders right and left before he took over in Egypt. Most unjustly because they lost major battles where the supply and replacement problems had them so weak that all they could do is pull back. Because of that Monty was more concerned with not loosing than he was with winning. If you look at the desert war there were several times he halted an attack when he had Rommel on the ropes. Mostly because he was worried about supply lines. While he was waiting to bring more supplies up Rommel was able to pull back, get resupplied and go back on the offensive.

One thing a good battlefield commander has the ability to do in adapt to a changing situation. A good example was commanders in Desert Storm were stopping at their first days objectives and reporting in that they had secured said objective. As early as 9:30 AM. Storming Norman and Franks had to order them to keep moving. Some units made their 4th or 5th day objectives on day one. But only because they were pushed. Rommel and Patton would both do that. Achieve an objective and instead of giving the enemy time to regroup and dig in they kept pushing keeping the enemy off balance. Monty on the other hand would have his troops stop to take on replacements and supplies. They train that when reaching an objective stop to reorganize and resupply before moving on. But there are clearly times when that should be tossed aside and the attack continued.

Rick

Good observations, but here's the "Yeah, but..." you had to know was coming. Hitler drove his guys hard and fast. Blitzkrieg worked, but he also outran his supply and fuel lines numerous times. IIRC, that was part of what cost him the Russian campaign too, along with winter. There are limits to everything and they didn't have air supply like we have now.
 
(quoted from post at 11:57:18 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 05:45:59 10/22/14) Wasn't part of that decision based upon availability of land based bombers that close to mainland China which the enemy controlled somewhat. I think the British learned that lesson at Singapore.

Mark

The whole campaign against the Japanese was aimed at getting into decent bomber range of the Japanese home islands and establishing a staging area for an invasion. At one time the plan was to take the Philippians then Formosa with the idea that staging for an invasion would be in Formosa. By the time Mac went back to the Philippians that idea had been put aside for the more direct route that we followed. So basically letting Mac (the army and navy were against that plan as being unnecessary) take the Philippians was a political decision made by the president and yes Roosevelt directly intervened to make it happen. The only strategic advantage gained by retaking the Philippians was that it cause the Japanese to expend assets that they really couldn't afford by that time. By then a bypassed island chain was pretty much contained. The Japanese had no means of supporting those trapped on those islands so any men and equipment was lost just as effectively as if they were crushed in combat.

Rick

IIRC, the main reason we re-took the Philippines when we did was because MacA threw a giant sized hissy fit when he found out everyone else wanted to by pass it. That was his Kingdom, his country, he was Emperor there and he wasn't going to have it any other way. I have the books on it some place, but that's the gist of it.
 
(quoted from post at 16:08:47 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 11:57:18 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 05:45:59 10/22/14) Wasn't part of that decision based upon availability of land based bombers that close to mainland China which the enemy controlled somewhat. I think the British learned that lesson at Singapore.

Mark

The whole campaign against the Japanese was aimed at getting into decent bomber range of the Japanese home islands and establishing a staging area for an invasion. At one time the plan was to take the Philippians then Formosa with the idea that staging for an invasion would be in Formosa. By the time Mac went back to the Philippians that idea had been put aside for the more direct route that we followed. So basically letting Mac (the army and navy were against that plan as being unnecessary) take the Philippians was a political decision made by the president and yes Roosevelt directly intervened to make it happen. The only strategic advantage gained by retaking the Philippians was that it cause the Japanese to expend assets that they really couldn't afford by that time. By then a bypassed island chain was pretty much contained. The Japanese had no means of supporting those trapped on those islands so any men and equipment was lost just as effectively as if they were crushed in combat.

Rick

IIRC, the main reason we re-took the Philippines when we did was because MacA threw a giant sized hissy fit when he found out everyone else wanted to by pass it. That was his Kingdom, his country, he was Emperor there and he wasn't going to have it any other way. I have the books on it some place, but that's the gist of it.

At the time Mac landed the Formosa plan was dead. Originally there were going to take the Philippians as a step off to take Formosa. Witt the causalities they took taking the smaller islands they decided that the northern route would be cheaper by far. So to my understanding Mac did throw a fit at a meeting with Roosevelt and Nimitz. Roosevelt saw the political gain to be had if they did take the Philippians so he's the one who approved the attack. At that point in time the Philippians had no strategic value. The sea lane between the Dutch East Indies (their oil supply) was pretty much closed due to US subs. So having airfields in range of the sea lane wasn't needed.

I've read a bunch of books on Mac and most either paint him as a hero or a smuck. Very few books try to be objective on Mac.

Now jump forward. The US Army Chief of Staff was totally against the Inchon landing. That was Mac's plan and they didn't like it. The tides in that area are terrible and when the tide is out everything sits in a giant mud flat. The brass was concerned that the troops and supply ships would be sitting, easy targets for land base artillery and air attack. The plan was brilliant because if you look at any place you could land troops that's the last one you would ever pick. I think it's called the Flying Fish Channel that's 20 plus miles long through the mud flats. So the area was lightly defended because the NK's though no one would be dumb enough to attack there. He also had an armor unit break out of the Pusan Perimeter as a distraction and to pin the front line forces. After all while under attack it really hard to break contact and move to another location to defend. Excellent plan and it worked.

Mac's downfall in Korea was his reliance in his intel officer who had been with him all they way through WWII. This guy got handed intel about the Chinese and refused to believe it because it didn't come from his people. He also told Mac just a week or two before the north attacked that nothing was going to happen in Korea. In almost every case of an Army level intel officer making that kind of blunder saw them relieved of duties. Mac never did that to him.

It's also in print that when Mac was in West Point his mother live in a motel right outside the gate and he was allowed to visit her everyday. Is it true? Was he coddled through West point?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 16:08:47 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 11:57:18 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 05:45:59 10/22/14) Wasn't part of that decision based upon availability of land based bombers that close to mainland China which the enemy controlled somewhat. I think the British learned that lesson at Singapore.

Mark

The whole campaign against the Japanese was aimed at getting into decent bomber range of the Japanese home islands and establishing a staging area for an invasion. At one time the plan was to take the Philippians then Formosa with the idea that staging for an invasion would be in Formosa. By the time Mac went back to the Philippians that idea had been put aside for the more direct route that we followed. So basically letting Mac (the army and navy were against that plan as being unnecessary) take the Philippians was a political decision made by the president and yes Roosevelt directly intervened to make it happen. The only strategic advantage gained by retaking the Philippians was that it cause the Japanese to expend assets that they really couldn't afford by that time. By then a bypassed island chain was pretty much contained. The Japanese had no means of supporting those trapped on those islands so any men and equipment was lost just as effectively as if they were crushed in combat.

Rick

IIRC, the main reason we re-took the Philippines when we did was because MacA threw a giant sized hissy fit when he found out everyone else wanted to by pass it. That was his Kingdom, his country, he was Emperor there and he wasn't going to have it any other way. I have the books on it some place, but that's the gist of it.

At the time Mac landed the Formosa plan was dead. Originally there were going to take the Philippians as a step off to take Formosa. Witt the causalities they took taking the smaller islands they decided that the northern route would be cheaper by far. So to my understanding Mac did throw a fit at a meeting with Roosevelt and Nimitz. Roosevelt saw the political gain to be had if they did take the Philippians so he's the one who approved the attack. At that point in time the Philippians had no strategic value. The sea lane between the Dutch East Indies (their oil supply) was pretty much closed due to US subs. So having airfields in range of the sea lane wasn't needed.

I've read a bunch of books on Mac and most either paint him as a hero or a smuck. Very few books try to be objective on Mac.

Now jump forward. The US Army Chief of Staff was totally against the Inchon landing. That was Mac's plan and they didn't like it. The tides in that area are terrible and when the tide is out everything sits in a giant mud flat. The brass was concerned that the troops and supply ships would be sitting, easy targets for land base artillery and air attack. The plan was brilliant because if you look at any place you could land troops that's the last one you would ever pick. I think it's called the Flying Fish Channel that's 20 plus miles long through the mud flats. So the area was lightly defended because the NK's though no one would be dumb enough to attack there. He also had an armor unit break out of the Pusan Perimeter as a distraction and to pin the front line forces. After all while under attack it really hard to break contact and move to another location to defend. Excellent plan and it worked.

Mac's downfall in Korea was his reliance in his intel officer who had been with him all they way through WWII. This guy got handed intel about the Chinese and refused to believe it because it didn't come from his people. He also told Mac just a week or two before the north attacked that nothing was going to happen in Korea. In almost every case of an Army level intel officer making that kind of blunder saw them relieved of duties. Mac never did that to him.

It's also in print that when Mac was in West Point his mother live in a motel right outside the gate and he was allowed to visit her everyday. Is it true? Was he coddled through West point?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 21:25:14 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 16:08:47 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 11:57:18 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 05:45:59 10/22/14) Wasn't part of that decision based upon availability of land based bombers that close to mainland China which the enemy controlled somewhat. I think the British learned that lesson at Singapore.

Mark

The whole campaign against the Japanese was aimed at getting into decent bomber range of the Japanese home islands and establishing a staging area for an invasion. At one time the plan was to take the Philippians then Formosa with the idea that staging for an invasion would be in Formosa. By the time Mac went back to the Philippians that idea had been put aside for the more direct route that we followed. So basically letting Mac (the army and navy were against that plan as being unnecessary) take the Philippians was a political decision made by the president and yes Roosevelt directly intervened to make it happen. The only strategic advantage gained by retaking the Philippians was that it cause the Japanese to expend assets that they really couldn't afford by that time. By then a bypassed island chain was pretty much contained. The Japanese had no means of supporting those trapped on those islands so any men and equipment was lost just as effectively as if they were crushed in combat.

Rick

IIRC, the main reason we re-took the Philippines when we did was because MacA threw a giant sized hissy fit when he found out everyone else wanted to by pass it. That was his Kingdom, his country, he was Emperor there and he wasn't going to have it any other way. I have the books on it some place, but that's the gist of it.

At the time Mac landed the Formosa plan was dead. Originally there were going to take the Philippians as a step off to take Formosa. Witt the causalities they took taking the smaller islands they decided that the northern route would be cheaper by far. So to my understanding Mac did throw a fit at a meeting with Roosevelt and Nimitz. Roosevelt saw the political gain to be had if they did take the Philippians so he's the one who approved the attack. At that point in time the Philippians had no strategic value. The sea lane between the Dutch East Indies (their oil supply) was pretty much closed due to US subs. So having airfields in range of the sea lane wasn't needed.

I've read a bunch of books on Mac and most either paint him as a hero or a smuck. Very few books try to be objective on Mac.

Now jump forward. The US Army Chief of Staff was totally against the Inchon landing. That was Mac's plan and they didn't like it. The tides in that area are terrible and when the tide is out everything sits in a giant mud flat. The brass was concerned that the troops and supply ships would be sitting, easy targets for land base artillery and air attack. The plan was brilliant because if you look at any place you could land troops that's the last one you would ever pick. I think it's called the Flying Fish Channel that's 20 plus miles long through the mud flats. So the area was lightly defended because the NK's though no one would be dumb enough to attack there. He also had an armor unit break out of the Pusan Perimeter as a distraction and to pin the front line forces. After all while under attack it really hard to break contact and move to another location to defend. Excellent plan and it worked.

Mac's downfall in Korea was his reliance in his intel officer who had been with him all they way through WWII. This guy got handed intel about the Chinese and refused to believe it because it didn't come from his people. He also told Mac just a week or two before the north attacked that nothing was going to happen in Korea. In almost every case of an Army level intel officer making that kind of blunder saw them relieved of duties. Mac never did that to him.

It's also in print that when Mac was in West Point his mother live in a motel right outside the gate and he was allowed to visit her everyday. Is it true? Was he coddled through West point?

Rick

I don't believe he was coddled at all at WP, but who knows. His Mommy did live in a local hotel near WP, but so did a lot of other high ranking officers wives with boys at WP. He was smart, no doubt. He also disobeyed orders often but always came out in the pink. He and his father both got the MoH, but at that time the MoH didn't carry the status it does now. Don't forget Lincoln gave out bunches of them as re-enlistment bonuses! And lets not be fooled about his medals. Any one whos served in the military knows that officers get medals where enlisted get a slap on the back. Officers put each other in for medals in time of war. Heck, sometimes they put themselves in! An officer might take 5 men to do a recon and 2 of the enlisted might actually be way out front, but it's the officer that gets the credit.

Anyways, he got a lot of medals and he was smart. Inchon worked, but he blew it in a lot of other places. And he dissed the Prez. Truman might not have been worthy of respect, but the office is. MacA should have known that Truman was a nasty little guy no matter what. That was his last mistake.
 

LOL if you think Truman was nasty he learned from Roosevelt. There are many examples of Roosevelt having it out for someone. Basically if he thought you embarrassed him or had the guts to publicly disagree he's be out for revenge. But it's also said that Roosevelt could charm you out of your socks, you would have to remember to ask for you shoes thought, before you left. Thing is Mac didn't respect Truman. I think he thought that Truman was soft on communism and by Truman being willing to accept just pushing the NK's back across the border he was showing that. Mac believed in total victory.

All men, except me that is, have faults. When you are rich or famous people start looking for those faults. Everyone who you have pi$$ed off will be trying to discredit you.

Interesting note on the medals. I think Vietnam was the worst example. Lot of senior officers who stayed in camp in or near a bunker would write each other up for decorations. But my dad complained bitterly about senior officers in the Pacific flying into safe areas on islands for an "inspection" before the island was declared secure so the could claim the campaign ribbon for that island. The Army had to stop Pentagon brass from flying into Grenada for much the same reason.

Rick
 

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