seeking history of 3 point hitch/PTO type/incompatibilities?

neodoodlebug

New User
Hello, i'm new here, and i'll sort of make this micro introduction post. I grew up in the city, I know very little about tractors because I was never around them, and i'm having a hard time finding answers or even knowing where to look. (if there are books of 'obvious' knowledge I should look into i'm all game) I'm hoping to eventually move rural, homestead, and buy/build/modify an old tractor/implements doing real work with them on a low budget.

At the moment i'm trying to gain in my knowledge about tractor history and implements. My understanding is that from about the 1930's up until the late 60's/early 70's there were something like 7 different hitch/PTO types. From then onwards my understanding is they are standardized (so I could use any newer tractor with any newer implement) but before then things were incompatible on purpose to try and lock you into buying the implements from the same manufacturer you got the tractor from.

Could someone offer or suggest where I could find pictures, measurements, and detailed information on exactly what each attachment was like? I'm curious whether they are to any degree compatible or could be modified for compatibility for instance.

If such history goes back before even the 1930's that's okay too - i'm curious about everything back to horse drawn days, other than I get the impression there wasn't much differences prior - just a horse drawn hitch which looks like a loop that i've seen, and perhaps wide leather belt drives from the late 1800's steam era. (though i'm not sure if there were any implements which used such power while being pulled, I assumed it was more for stationary power)


If my statements are factually wrong anywhere please offer corrections. :)
 
Simplest quickest way might be to go to various flea markets or on eBay, get different owner"s manuals for various tractors, and for various implements. Lots of info.
 
type in tractor books or history of tractors in your browser
and filter through what info is important to you, lot of books
available on the subject. Try dean vinsons farm life page for
titles.
Chuck
 

Here's a brief explanation that I sniped from LH side of page in Classic view on this forum.
mvphoto10984.jpg
 
Tractor Supply Company stores generally have a good supply of antigue and modern books and mags. on their floor. You can buy specific brand histories and general history tractor books. Ford-Fergueson pretty much invented the 3 pt hitch system that is in use now. Allis Chalmers and Farmall both used systems other than the standard 3 pt hitch system we now use. Almost all of the tractor makes have accociations with magzines that are loaded with the history and technical aspects of their respective brands. About every possibly concievable idea from every concievable angle has been tried as far as approching any part of farming operations. You will find the ingenuity of those involed absolutely fascinating!

Take your time and enjoy the learning process. The amount of info to absorb would make a super computer have a mental breakdown. Follow this website. It's particpants have an incredible store of experience and knowlage on all things machinery related.
 
Pto got standardized pretty good.

Skinny 560, modern 560. There are flimsy and good adapters.

Then small and large 1000 pto - over 75hp or so, the older pto
couldn't hold enough power, so they speeded thrm up and tad
fatter, so able to transmit more power.

Many different designs for hitching up implements, the
Dearborn/Ford 3pt caught on best, but was patented so
everyone else had to try something a little different for 20
years.

Fast hitch - Farmall
Eagle hitch - Case
Allis Chalmers

Many others, you'll run into those 3 mostly.

Paul
 
The problem is not a dire as you may think. What wound up as standard was the 3 point system. For any tractor with a hydraulic system already on it you can buy 3 point hitch conversions for them. So as an example, an AC CA with a snap coupler system that implements are hard to find to fit can be converted to cat 1 3 point with ease. 3 point implements can be found used or are available new for several different manufactures. I use cat 1 implements a lot. All of mine have been picked up used and include 2 bottom plow, 6' tandem disk, 7' field cultivator, 2 row crop cultivator, 5' brush mower, 5' finish mower, 1 shank sub soiler, rear blade, 2 row corn planter (something I cut down from a 4 row and added 3 point hitch to) post hole auger and a 3 point mounted 36 gallon sprayer with 12 foot boom that I made. There are other implements available that I don't own too. You can look up available implements new on manufacturers sites like Woods or Howse. Others include multi row veggie seeders, broadcast fertilizer spreaders, rototillers, scoops and such.

The availability of cat 1 3 point implements is one of the reasons the Ferguson and Ford tractors are so popular as they are cat1 3 point for the smaller ones. Often you add in the price of a hitch to the cost of the tractor and it's not cost effective. Now on the other side, if a guy wanted a particular tractor, well it's his money.

Some of the implements for the IH "Fast Hitch" or AC "Snap Coupler" and Case "Eagle Hitch" are getting to be pretty expensive because they are in demand by collectors and haven't been made in decades.

Rick
 
Even all Cat 1 3pts are not exactly interchanganble especially with the newer compacts,think I have around 15 different Cat 1 toplinks I use on various implements and tractors
 
There were a lot of cultivator setups too. Many people think the early case hydraulic lifts were some form of early 3pt. It was a hydraulic lift for cultivators and plows. SC and DC Cases had these. The early ones were mechanical lifts, not hydraulic. Many older tractors without 3 pt. can be converted to 3 pt. with an aftermarket attachment. Some small older tractors had a small PTO, like Farmall As and Bs. The early Hs had the small PTO but can be converted to the standard size with a sleeve. For a new operator, remember that the old tractors were not independent PTO, they were driven through the transmission and should always have an overrunning clutch added to the shaft so the implement does not push the tractor, especially on hills and in tight spots....James
 
Google: harry ferguson and ferguson hitch
system

Harry Ferguson was an Irish Engineer that
invented the Ferguson hitch system which was
the beginning of the present day 3pt hitch
standards of today.

There are some youtube videos about Harry
Ferguson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRZfkegcu50

JimB
 
(quoted from post at 11:13:51 09/13/14) Google: harry ferguson and ferguson hitch
system

Harry Ferguson was an Irish Engineer that
invented the Ferguson hitch system which was
the beginning of the present day 3pt hitch
standards of today.

There are some youtube videos about Harry
Ferguson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRZfkegcu50

JimB

Too add to this, David brown built the first tractors to use the system, with Harry.... DB found him to be insufferable, and they parted ways(while still building tractors with a slightly modified version). Harry moved on to Henry Ford.... Henry came to the same conclusion as DB, (continued building tractors with same system, big lawsuit...) Harry starts his own company.
 
(quoted from post at 07:34:05 09/13/14) Even all Cat 1 3pts are not exactly interchanganble especially with the newer compacts,think I have around 15 different Cat 1 toplinks I use on various implements and tractors

Really? I have all those implements I listed and my adjustable top link works on them all.


Rick
 
Neodoodlebug, read your post and I thought I would offer my 2 cents worth.
I believe you want to learn about farm tractors and equipment from books and the like. However I must advise you that there is little likelihood of you having much success with this approach. Most of the users of this site learned about using and repairing farm tools the hard way through the school of hard knocks. You should decide what you need a tractor for and then what implements you will need. Right now it looks to me that you re not even sure if you will have a farm or land to work.
Next, you used the term, "homestead", which is one I have seen in some magazines that appeal to those with farmer hearts who dream of moving to the country and living off the land.
Sorry, it isn't going to happen unless you have deep pockets full of money Even then it is very unlikely that you will be successful.

I have lived on my farm for over 42 years and I have seen several 'homesteaders" come and go. They are usually gone in less than 5 years and not always because they are broke and farming is hard work for little pay but because they miss the city life they wanted to get away from. Many who came to live in the country were well educated and had read extensively about living and farming and the great country life but were soon to learn that books may help reinforce your basic knowledge of living off the land they are no substitute for actual experience.

Before you make the big move to the farm life I suggest that you spend some time working on a real farm and there you can get your hands in the dirt and the grease and, oh yes, the crap that is found around most farms. Good luck!
 
Well into the '50's, there were several different
types of hitches, and the were probably
standardized somewhere around 1960. Even today,
some are a bit different because of the top link
hookup, but the pins and basic sizes are all the
same. As for pto hookups, there are several sizes
and about three speeds that are used, but one of
them is a weird speed that only a few foreign
types use. There are again a few different sizes
of the pto systems- a small 540 shaft on a few older tractors,
and the standard 540 that is pretty much universal
today, and 2 different 1000 shafts where the very
large HP tractors have a bigger shaft than the mid
HP units. There are also a few oddities like the
Massey Harris hookup, where the pto shaft was
actually higher than the toplink on the tractor,
so three point attachments with pto drives were
useless. But most everything after about 1960 is
built to fit anything....
 
Two books I would recommend are text books and
well written for a student of farming practices.
"Farm Machinery and Equipment" Harris Smith
"Farm Gas Engines and Tractors" Fred Jones
You can find copies pretty readily at any of the
online booksellers or Ebay and they are
inexpensive. Read those and then you will have
more questions.
 
Wow, huge volume of posts for so quick! But i'll just respond to THIS ONE at the moment because it perhaps will help focus why i'm asking these questions. :)

(quoted from post at 10:41:08 09/13/14) Neodoodlebug, read your post and I thought I would offer my 2 cents worth.
I believe you want to learn about farm tractors and equipment from books and the like. However I must advise you that there is little likelihood of you having much success with this approach.

Well the specific information i'm seeking is not 4 years of study but something I should be able to learn in an afternoon buying coffee for someone and talking to them. :) I just don't have anyone where I am (in a million plus metropolis) to ask... But if I explain a little better what i'm doing maybe it will make more sense.

Years ago I was originally involved as a contributor to the LifeTrac project. http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/LifeTrac Which in ultrabrief was a homebuilt/DIY tractor design (which ended up looking far more like a skid steer) intended to be inexpensive to build and inexpensive to maintain (no single part costing over $250 to replace outside the engine due to hydraulic drive with no transmission to break for instance) for use in any impoverished region believing the main manufacturers were overcomplicating or overcharging for something that should work simpler. However the project sort of took... it's own turn due to internal conflicts not really worth getting into. In the same way that an open source software project 'forks' when there's a disagreement with both groups going their own way, I went my own way.

Now the point of a tractor is not to have a tractor but rather the implements you will drive with it. One of the things I strongly suggested (but was ignored over) was that the LifeTrac have the option to be compatible with EXISTING implements, since if someone already has some farm implements they could then use it, or if they found used implements for sale they could buy it based on price alone not worried about "will this work with my X tractor?" because for some things buying used is cheaper than building from scratch. (and obviously alot less work)

Because my area of experimentation is more shadetree mechanical engineering related than farming, I don't know things like what each different hitch looks like. But i'm pretty sure I could figure out how feasible it would be to build a form of reconfigurable hitch system. If it's little differences like "A 28 spline shaft instead of a 32 spline shaftr" that's different than something more major like the PTO being 12 inches away and spinning the opposite way. And the earlier I sketch in "something to work with everything" (of a given weight class) the easier it will be.

Now whether I PERSONALLY will end up buying an old 1930's thru 1960's farm tractor, build a LifeTrac, or work on engineering up my own modified design is not yet decided. My own "homesteading" project is the reason I want to buy/ build/ modify a tractor but not the reason i'm asking the question or trying to understand tractor design. Because even if I just buy some old Ford and want to use Minneapolis Moline implements with it that I found for cheap at an auction someone ELSE may want a completely different combination and i'm trying to come up with as close to a universal solution "everything hooks to everything" as possible. Instead of buying Tractor A and wondering if I can use implements of Tractor B, i'm seeking a more general understanding for a project that could end up being used by people in africa, south america, or rural asia who may have totally different needs than me. Whether that solution is a modification to the LifeTrac, open sourced as a set of adapters for other old tractor owners to DIY, or part of a clean sheet tractor design of my own. (my original inspiration obviously being the great depression era doodlebugs people were making)


So even if I went to the country and five years later was back in the city is irrelevant - whatever I learn in my own explorations will be shared back hoping it will be useful to someone else. In the same way someone writing linux software might try and put in code hooks so that it's easy for others to understand and modify their source code for their own needs, i'm trying to engineer up a solution that can easily adapt "Tractor Q to Implement M" if that's what they want to do even if I never plan to do that myself.


Next, you used the term, "homestead", which is one I have seen in some magazines that appeal to those with farmer hearts who dream of moving to the country and living off the land.

I'm aware of the problems and the failure rate. But i'd rather let me worry about the feasibility and mostly talk about the tractor end on here. :) Also since it's not "just for me" I was hoping it would be irrelevant. All I need right now are rules of thumb for 'back of the diner napkin' level of engineering, nothing i'd be entering into a CAD program until I learn more about the topic. I'm not seeking engineering drawings at this point (just leads for eventual ones which are likely in some of those books already suggested), more like just the rules of thumb. An example of the kind of info i'm seeking would be:

[i:740a50aed3]"There's not seven types of hitch but nine! This is a pic of a ford light hitch, this is a ford heavy hitch over 80hp, the ford light is compatible with massey ferguson implements with an adapter but not the other way around... the ford heavy is very difficult to modify but can work it's just not usually worth it. This is an allis chambers hitch, there are adapters to use ford and farmall implements but nothing else. This is an international harvester hitch, nothing else works with it of the 30's to 50's but it can easily use modern implements 1980's and up."
[/i:740a50aed3]
I'm sure 100% of every statement of the above is wrong but if the answer is similar to that it gets me in the ballpark to explore this further. A few sentences explaining critical differences of each type (similar to the person who showed the type 0/1/2/3 hitch, but for the early proprietary hitches, with the "bullet points" of critical information I should know like roughly whats different and why), maybe rough years it was used vs some company merging or splitting up if that happened going their own ways, 85% of what I need to know right now should be containable in a single paragraph per hitch and a picture ideally. The bulk of my understanding so far was summarized already "from 30's to 60's there's a bunch of incompatible hitch designs, then later by 80's it's all compatible". I want to map out and understand the 'family trees' of those hitches.


And i'm not trying to make everyone else do my work for me, just get me a little closer to that ballpark so that it's more filling in generalities than specific information which books on just one system should have since getting all the recommended books and such could take me a few months of interlibrary loans and such in the meanwhile.
 
(quoted from post at 08:27:35 09/13/14) Hello, i'm new here, and i'll sort of make this micro introduction post. I grew up in the city, I know very little about tractors because I was never around them, and i'm having a hard time finding answers or even knowing where to look. (if there are books of 'obvious' knowledge I should look into i'm all game) I'm hoping to eventually move rural, homestead, and buy/build/modify an old tractor/implements doing real work with them on a low budget.

At the moment i'm trying to gain in my knowledge about tractor history and implements. My understanding is that from about the 1930's up until the late 60's/early 70's there were something like 7 different hitch/PTO types. From then onwards my understanding is they are standardized (so I could use any newer tractor with any newer implement) but before then things were incompatible on purpose to try and lock you into buying the implements from the same manufacturer you got the tractor from.

Could someone offer or suggest where I could find pictures, measurements, and detailed information on exactly what each attachment was like? I'm curious whether they are to any degree compatible or could be modified for compatibility for instance.

If such history goes back before even the 1930's that's okay too - i'm curious about everything back to horse drawn days, other than I get the impression there wasn't much differences prior - just a horse drawn hitch which looks like a loop that i've seen, and perhaps wide leather belt drives from the late 1800's steam era. (though i'm not sure if there were any implements which used such power while being pulled, I assumed it was more for stationary power)


If my statements are factually wrong anywhere please offer corrections. :)

Rather than re-invent the wheel. One could look at the various tractors built since 1957 with live pto, live hydraulics, three point hitch, a real drawbar, scv's, power steering, 12V alternator and wet brakes.
Find the most popular model(s) and manufacture them again. The parts are already on the shelf and in the distribution system.
Why re-invent the wheel?
As a wild guess the Massey 35/135/235 would be a contender. Some of the little Internationals are still manufactured in India under another name.
3rd world countries would get a tier 1 or tier 2 diesel. "Western" countries would be saddled with the initial and long term expense of Tier IV emissions.
 
You seem to be hard on Harry Ferguson, Harry was very successful before he ever got involved with David Brown, Harry made attachments for a Ford Model T to hook a plow up as a three point hitch so the front end will not raise up and cause tractors to tip over as they could do with a pull type plow hit a rock or just hard ground, He made many other mechanical tillage tools. He built his first tractor as a demonstration of his three point hitch called the Ferguson Black. He did not want to become a tractor manufacturer so he then had an agreement with David Brown to build the tractor called the Ferguson Brown, David brown made changes to the tractor that Harry did not like. Sherman brothers were builders of gears and transmissions they introduced Harry to Henry Ford, and the and shake agreement Henry's son decided to make the tractors himself to cut Harry out of the deal. Harry sued Ford and won the lawsuit. Harry had the Ferguson built to compete with the Ford, When he was dealing with the Massey-Harris company to buy his company they were 1 million dollars apart on the price so Harry said to flip a coin, which they did and Harry lost a million dollars. He went on to build race cars and airplanes after he sold his tractor company
 
I know many on here are MUCH more experienced than me, but in short; there are 4 variants of the 3 point hitch. They are all basically the same (two movable lower arms at some length and spacing, a single upper link with an adjustable length). The size of the holes and locations of the 3-points changes with the power of the tractor. The most common size is cat 1; and with adapter bushings most cat 2-3 tractors can accept cat 1 attachments. cat 0 is for lawn tractor size tractors.

IMO, I would buy an "inexpensive" modern cat 1 3-point hitch (Ford 600/800, and equivalent); use it and learn what works, what you like, and what could be improved - than look into the market and see what improvements have already been done and see if you have anything that is better than what is out there.

Also IMO, it is clear that all of this is new to you and; I would suggest having some experience with using with what you are trying to design if you are going to make a viable product.
 
If I was building a "lifetrac" I would take either a MF 35 or IH B-414 as a template, whoops, TAFE and Mahindra already do this in India. Cheap simple tractor for 3rd world usage, and perfect for "small" farms anywhere.

Solid, simple tractor that will use Category 1 3pt hitch equipment and 540 PTO. Drawbar for trailer use. Diesel power and mechanical everything.

Gear transmission less problematic than hydro.

I would wager the bulk of equipment world wide would fit such a tractor and new is being made everyday.
 
OK, there are, as stated before, adapters to add a 3 point or modify other hitch systems to 3 point readily available from several different manufactures. Also a lot of guys like most of us on here could fab something to modify one if needed from scrap and maybe a couple of parts from a tractor salvage yard or new from a farm supply store. A good place to educate yourself as to what's already available would be to look through the parts available from this sight.

Most people are going to find that implements designed to fit a particular system like the AC Snap Coupler or IH Fast Hitch are rather expensive on the used market because they are in demand by collectors. The same goes for some older ground/mechanical lift implements like plows. They are both popular with collectors and as yard art. As far as modifying say Snap Coupler plow all that is needed are a cutting tool, a little scrap and a arc welder. Pins are available at any farm supply store. Heck, I used a sawsall and a welder to make a 4 row, trailer, hydraulic lift corn planter into a 2 row cat 1 3 point planter. The only reason I used the sawsall was I wanted clean cuts instead of ruff torch cuts.

In the last year I've seen, at auction, what started life as a JD ground lift 2 bottom plow, modified to cat 1 3 point sell for over 600 dollars. A collector won the bid. I talked to him. The mow board, shares, lands and coulters were in great shape and he needed them to restore a plow he had. A Dearborn 2 bottom sold about 2 minutes later, good overall condition, 250. I seen others like a Snap Coupler plow in so so condition bring over 500.

So you may be kicking a dead dog if you have dreams of finding "cheap" brand specific implements to modify. If you would have look into this 15 years ago it might have been a great idea at the time.

Another factor, if you are thinking about marketing a "how to" guide or plans is that the "hobby crowd" with newer compact tractors want things like rototillers that don't work well on some of the older tractors. Used 3 point tillers go pretty good at auction. For reference, I live in the "Heart of the Lakes" arear of MN. We have a lot of "summer" people from the twin cities and other larger metro areas. Some have lake homes and others have purchased 5-10 acres and built summer homes. Those people love the old Fergusons and Fords. They buy a finish mower and rear blade and are loving life. So for being a rural farm area we have our big city influences. Here, because of implement availability something like a nice Farmall H or old AC is a 1000 buck tractor while a beat to near junk 8N Ford or TO series Ferguson starts at 1000 and goes up from there. Right now a local old guy is trying to sell a nice Farmall M, aftermarket WFE, loader, chains, aftermarket power steering and 3 point. He's got it listed for 2400. It's been on the market for over 6 months.

Hope this helps.

Rick
 

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