Heating systems

Sprint 6

Well-known Member
We will be building a country home in the next 12 months.
It will be approximately 3,000 square feet. I am currently
looking into heating. What would the forum recommend?
Would like to install geothermal, anyone have a real world
cost figure for a closed loop system? I don't want to waste
a salesman's time or mine if they are stupid expensive. I
have also thought about installing a wood burner.
Thoughts, opinions, and snide remarks welcome.
 
Geothermal is going into many Minnesota homes. I specked a constant loss pumped water source system for a friend and he is way happy. There is no shortage of water, and most of it returns to the aquifer in the area of the well. Well is 60 ft and stays at 58 to 62 degrees temp. Little Falls Area. Jim
 
It has been 6 years. There is no obvious mineralization in or on the rock and gravel drywell like out flow zone. The zone is 50 ft away from the house in the edge of a woodlot. Jim
 
My water is down 200', but soft. I do not know if that would be cheaper than directional boring. I am inclined to do direction boring because rock is down 125'.
 
I have a Water Furnace closed loop (3-75 ft wells) and it was around $9000 over 20 years ago including the wells, duct work, electrical and the geothermal unit. Other than air filters, coil cleaner and one circ pump replacement it has been trouble free. Augments our hot water via a manifold inside the water heater during the warm months. We also have a Regency H2100 wood insert in use from mid-November through February so generally in the winter the geothermal unit only runs some at night and is set at 72°. Electricity here is 14¢ kwh and propane is $1.89 plus 5¢ gallon tank rental ( 2015 contract price) plus taxes.
 
We installed a outside wood burner for the farm last year, with the new style super insulated pipe buried 18 inches deep. (Wisconsin) heats old farm house think we burned 30 "face" cord last year.... Not trying to scare ya but make sure you like to cut wood, have a place to cut wood, have all the toys to cut wood.....or wife that likes to cut wood... Don't forget it's only a second source still need a back up. And a good Neighbor to fire the dam thing when your sitting at the bar watch the Packer kick the Vikings assss.
 
We installed a outside wood burner for the farm last year, with the new style super insulated pipe buried 18 inches deep. (Wisconsin) heats old farm house think we burned 30 "face" cord last year.... Not trying to scare ya but make sure you like to cut wood, have a place to cut wood, have all the toys to cut wood.....or wife that likes to cut wood... Don't forget it's only a second source still need a back up. And a good Neighbor to fire the dam thing when your sitting at the bar watch the Packers kick the Vikings assss.
 
Unless you like a lot of work cutting wood, install a geothermal for your heat and a wood stove or fireplace for the effect.
 
keep in mind, geo-thermal banks heat in the summer and uses that in the winter, but you have the expense of running both AC and heat all year long. If you live in the north, you may not have even needed AC. And the price of electric will just continue to climb. I am skeptical that geo-thermal will be a $$$ saver due to electric. We live in SE PA, use window AC units. We did NOT even put them in this summer.
 
Its going to depend some on your climate and price of electricity. Here in temperate western Washington, where electricity is only 5 cents a KW, a conventional heat pump (open air) is hard to beat.
 
You don't say what your energy choices are. If you have natural gas available, I'd go that route. But if your choices are electric and propane, you definitely need to look into geothermal. Better add in the cost of a standby generator capable of running the geothermal system plus the rest of the house.

As for a woodburner, you may have trouble getting financing or reselling the house if wood is your sole source of heat.
 
My location is east central Indiana, so we can get some really cold days. Our basic energy choices are electricity and propane. There is natural gas piped down the main highway, but as of yet it is not run down any of the country roads. I wish I had the money to have a natural gas well drilled, supposedly our area lies over a natural gas field.
 
I would highly recommend putting your money in making a super insulated home with the best windows, doors, and brick siding.

Why Brick? Look at what the american indians build, mud huts. This summer with temps in the 80-60 my AC would rarely come on because the brick would take a long time to warm up and long time to cool off. Average temp of house remainded at 72. 20k 4# brick + sand + mortar is north of 100K# of thermal mass which is about = to 50K# of water. An inulation company told me how to make R20 walls with 2x4 construction. Highly recommend, made my first rental house this way in 1985 before I did it to my home starting in 1991.

Want to see what my well insulated house looks like go to my post on which lawn looks the best.

It took me 5 years to build this place around an old 2 bedroom ranch. I did 95% of the work. Brother and kids help some.

I heat with simple cheap electric baseboard. It will last a lifetime, have no repairs, no maintance, you can keep each room where you like it.

I use my old gas furnace as air handler for AC.

If you plan to use wood, why invest about $25-30K in a geo. Keep in mind the issues associated with 410a.
George
 
In floor radiant is by far the least expensive to operate with any good quality boiler like a Slant Fin. Ask this question on the "wall" at heatinghelp.com. Many experts there will give you an unbiased answer. Radiant often offers a 50% cost savings on energy over hot air. It also happens to be by far the most comfortable kind of heat.
 
If I could do it all over again I would put a Charmaster wood furnace in the basement and have a regular forced air furnace with AC as my backup. I bought a wood pellet burner a couple years ago. You say you will have propane, which is too expensive to run in the winter unless you are a millionaire and have money to burn.

As far as a Charmaster furnace goes a buddy of mine has one and he loves it. You can get logs delivered by the truck load, you cut and split, if you like the exercise.

Geothermal and outside wood boilers have too many working parts to go wrong and cost upwards of $10,000.

Go to www.charmaster.com Made in Grand Rapids Minnesota.
 
If you live in a very cold climate,
putting lots of choices in when building so you are flexible is good.
I have an oil furnace (existing setup used very sparingly because of oil cost),
small wood stove, permanent setup propane heaters, some hi-amp 110 circuits for space heaters, and a couple runs of 220 for some heavy electric heaters.

That way if the bottom drops out of some supply
(like propane last year)
I have other options to try and stay warm.

Edit, like to add, since it is new construction.
Design doors in...everywhere...all rooms, hallways, closets.
Pocket doors if you need openness.
With winters getting colder and heating $ getting higher, closing off rooms when not in use will save a bundle.
(seems we are regressing up here in the North. Soon we will back to living in 1 room houses)
 
If I was building new,here's what I'd be using.
a167370.jpg

Nibe heating and cooling systems
 
Easy,
I can get hi density R15 fiberglass that fits in 2x4 walls from an insulation company in TH. Then before you put up the drywall install 3/4 inch celetex tuff R, R 4.7 some say R5. It's extruded urathane with aluminum on both sides to block heat losses due to radiation. It works. The hi density fiberglass + tuff R is cheaper than using 2x6 construction and R19 insulation.

The insulation company in TH recommended I unsulate this way in 1985. It works, no issues. The people who rent the first house I did love their cheap electric bills using simple, cheap, reliable electric baseboard heat.

I find it cheaper for me to call the insulators and have my attics blown with fiberglass, minimum of 15 inches vs doing it myself. Yes ground up newspaper is considered to have a better R value, but I'm old school. I've seen the fire retarted newspaper actually cause fires and I've seen it soak up moisture, no thank you, period.

Brick is still the best thing you can do to save energy.

I've said before, my electric company made me an offer based on last years record cold winter, a Fixed bill of $135/mo for 12 months. I jumped on the offer, considering the latest supreme court decisions giving the EPA what they wanted, no coal. It's a matter of time before natural gas and electric rates will rise.

George
 
I would agree with George, regardless of the heat insulate the snot out of it. I would foam all the walls if I was doing it again and really watch the window installer.
 
Have used ground source geothermal for the past 13 years in central Minnesota and highly recommend it. My house is well insulated and I had a 4.5 year pay back on the geothermal system when compared to propane which is my only other viable option. My total energy annual costs for heating and AC has averaged about $450 (~$40 a month on a 4800sq foot home) until last year when I hit the $500 mark, but it was an unusual year.

I have my geothermal system metered and billed separately to keep track of costs. The system has been very reliable and maintenance free. I do recommend that you get a good HVAC contractor that will correctly size the system based on your home heat loss. My local power company did a heat loss calculation for free and it matched the numbers provided by my HVAC contractor.

Costs have gone up since I installed my system and payback may not be as quick, but I would have your power company work with you on projected payback. In my case, if electrical rates were to double I would still be more cost effective then gas. Good Luck
 
I go along with George that insulation is the most important part of heating or cooling a house.I upgraded the insulation in attic of our house two years ago from the 12" that they recomended in 1978 to over 20" and it made a big differance. I have a wood stove in basement and LP gas furance for heat since house was built but at the time I up graded insulation I put in baseboard electric heater( which I like better than LP gas). Last winter was the coldest winters we have had in a long time and our total heating bill ( wood, LP gas and electric) for winter was around $2,000.00. I live in NW In. and we keep house (2,700 sq,ft.) in lower to mid 70's. Iam getting old and can't cut the 68 degree houses any more.
 
My free advice: I was a carpenter, builder, realtor, developer in my previous life. I am very good at the building sciences.

Probably the most bang for the buck you can get is use low density foam for the above grade walls. high density below grade and hi or low in the attic covered by cellulose or glass.

your heat loss will be so low that It wont matter much how you heat it.

Where are you building? south, north, east, west ?

Most of these decisions are made for bragging wrights. Vanity.

Use foam and insulating sheathing like built rite or foam. You will be more comfortable and use less money to build and heat or air condition.

Fiberglass insulation sucks. Think of a down jacket with no shell.
 

It goes without saying that you will super insulate. I looked into geothermal awhile back if I were building I would probably go that route but it would depend on the water table. If your water table is not deep you can just dig trenches and lay coiled poly pipe in. Deeper water means much more expensive ground work.
 
We did the same in 1992, Water Furnace with a three loop system in deep trenches. It was about $10,000, including the duct work in the house and hot water tank. Great system, only trouble was the bearing on a circulation pump went out, under warranty. Lived there 10 yrs. with it, we figured a 6 year or so payback on the cost. At the time it was that or propane/oil or electric baseboard. Right before we moved they ran gas up the road... oops too late, too deep into the Water Furnace.
 
OK, George. You've established that you can phart in your house and keep it warm for a week. That explains why your resistance heat hasn't driven you to the poor house.
 
Mark
I leave my heat set at one temp all winter, thermostat set at one temp all summer. I don't have and don't like smart theremostats. I never turn the heat off in any room, because cold walls can get wet, condensation, and form mold. The beauity of cheap resistance heat is there is no fans, no trunk line losses, rooms at desired temps, no chill factor like I've experienced in my boy's heat pump home.

I like my bedroom warmer, I keep my attached garage at 50 to melt snow. I even crack open casement windows in garage to vent. The electrical in workshop is attached to house along with 3 security lights.

My centeral takes care of every room. No room is shut off. Each room has at least two registers. One is return air. Most houses only have one or two air returns, I have at least one, sometimes two air returns in larger rooms.

My house is heated and cooled 24/7/365. I rarely open windows to let in humidity, pollen, air pollution.

I have a basement under the old half of house. I don't have to heat it in winter, pipes never freeze. In summer, there are air vents in trunk lines that cool basement to help dehumidifier keep humidity down. I shoot for 50%.

Mark, I don't get it, you never seem to believe anything I post. If you want proof of my electric bill, email me, I'll give you my address and Duke energy's phone #. Tell duke you plan to rent my house. They will give you my average electric bill for the past 12 months. As a landlord, I do this all the time to give new tenants an average from previous tenants. If you go to vigo county home page, they have a place where if you put in a name, they will give you all the tax info, pics of place, footprint of all buildings, aireal pic.
Put in my name and take a look see.
George
 
George, George, George! No need to take offense. I didn't intend to get you so agitated, and I apologize for picking at you from time to time.

Now if resistance heat works for you, fine. But for the vast majority of folks in northern climates it is a terrible choice. And I'm no fan of heat pumps, either. Both systems have their place, and that place isn't north of the Mason-Dixon line. The original poster is talking about building a new 3000 square foot house in Indiana. That's a big house in a cold place, even with proper insulation it's not going to be easy to heat. I doubt he could even get financing to build it with resistance heat. And if he did, the resale value would take a big hit because nobody wants to buy a 3000 sq ft house with resistance heat unless it's a bargain. Yes, geothermal is expensive, but the incremental cost between it and other alternatives isn't quite so big. That incremental cost can be financed over the life of the mortgage. The big unknown is the repair costs, which of course are likely to be higher with geothermal than any other system.
 
My youngest sister has a 7000 ft home in N Indiana. They built the home overlooking a river bank. So the lower floor walks out to the river, the south and west side is like a basement. They run a family HVAC business. The gas and electric rates are contrilled by same company, NIPSO.

SO TELL ME, WHY DON'T THEY INSTALL A GEO when they can do it at wholesale cost and free labor?
 
>SO TELL ME, WHY DON'T THEY INSTALL A GEO when they can do it at wholesale cost and free labor?

I dunno, George. You didn't give me enough information. But let me take a wild stab in the dark: Is it possible it's because they're on natural gas, and gas is cheaper than geothermal?

If you tell me your sister and BIL chose electric resistance heat for their newly constructed 7000 square foot home, I will be flabbergasted. Go ahead, flabbergast me.
 
Mark,
There is no way to please you, so tell me why should I even try in the future? Answer: I won't!
George
 

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