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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Expensive match.....only costs about a million....

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NCWayne

07-07-2014 22:21:49
173.188.169.54



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I talked to a buddy this afternoon that is the head guy for a big, commercial farming operation (the ones I made the bale buster for). Given that they provide wheat straw for some of the big box home stores, they tend to have ALOT of it on hand at any given time. In this instance they had a HUGE barn/structure filled to the rafters with big, square bales, until a couple of local kids decided it would all look better if it was in flames. Sadly the stuff was stored in a little community around an hour from their main place, so no one was there to really see, or do anything until it was pretty much too late.

As of today they are starting salvage operations to save as much of the material as they can. I believe he said they might end up with 30,000 bales left out of the whole deal. (((Not sure how big the structure was, but I assume that"s big bales broken down into small bales. Then again I have seen a small part of their storage facilities and it consisted of two 500x100 turkey barns sitting full to the rafters, and know there were several other storage places in the area))))). Given that the last baler hooked to the bale buster was at well over 100,000 bales when it crapped out, that"s not many, especially when you figure it was either the 4th or 5th one worn out feeding it constantly at well over 400 bales an hour. (Beyond the 400 bales an hour, which I have seen with my own eyes, I can't give exact numbers here, but this is just what I can remember, all pieced together from several conversations about the bale buster

In any case he said the whole mess would wind up costing them somewhere in the range of a million dollars. He didn"t say, but given the situation I would assume their insurance would cover at least part of the loss, but beyond prosecuting the kids responsible, he said they really didn"t have much recourse against the kids or their parents. Like he said how many poor, country folks carry insurance with a payout in the million range. Basically you can"t get blood from a turnip.

In the end I guess that the kids, due to age, will probably get not much more than a slap on the wrist...and who cares that their bright idea cost someone a million dollars.

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MarkWV

07-08-2014 18:24:31
173.80.83.34



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
insurance is different by state, WV no HO policy would cover the intentional/premeditated act of an insured, minor or adult. Have heard prosecutors say (when asked if they would request/require repayment as part of any plea)thats what insurance is for, only going to try to get deductilbe back.



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Diydave

07-08-2014 16:16:28
96.244.155.177



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
other kids with bright ideers have cost the nation much more...



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Billy NY

07-08-2014 07:55:34
66.67.105.23



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
Some kids are just so darned stupid, I can't imagine what goes through their heads, "yeah" lets light it up! So dumb, they don't think about getting caught, they did, they don't think about the danger to themselves, not to mention all the risk, danger etc., to every single person involved with fighting one of the most difficult fires to put out, firefighters, support people, all the smoke, heat, and just given the weather increasing the risks involved. Then no consideration to the owner whom they could easily financially ruin with some idiotic vandalism.

One thing that stood out at that age is that any kind of fire was clearly unacceptable in or even near any kind of barn. You really want to meet the parents of these kids, apple don't fall far from the tree.

Ironically, there are good ones out there, I caught a couple on dirtbikes last weekend, 14 years old, spoke with them for awhile, was not what you would think, both had jobs, paid for these bikes themselves, smart, knew to stay out of crops, don't wreck fences or just respectful, thanked me for not going off on them, in short I was impressed and told them to compliment their parents, one was a young hunter, got his first deer already, knew how to skin and cut it up, mowed lawns for summer work, said they might be able to get out to ride 1 or 2 times a month, so I took their numbers, confirmed they were good, gave em the stern warning and rules, but said if you send me a text, letting me know when you'll want to come through, it will be fine, only have one other guy who is my age, he does the same. They live in a small and old subdivision over the hill along the power lines, so knowing they don't have much, seemed like it would be fine, though they know, they could be asked to leave and angle iron tire spikes would be put out if they cross me LOL as well as no high speeding or stupid things, still probably a liability but thats how it is. Both these kids had good attitudes, should succeed in life, sometimes you can just tell, then you get ones that do the above, guess it takes all types.

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NCWayne

07-08-2014 07:09:20
173.188.169.54



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
In response to one of the posts asking if the fire was in SC I did a search. Here's a link to an article on the whole mess.

Given the number of bales it looks like the number my buddy said was an estimate of the number of small bales they might get out of the deal when all is said and done. Reading the article and seeing the pics I wonder how they are going to get even that much from the wet mess that's left.

I guess the really bad thing in the deal is that insurance wise about all they might be able to expect would be a payout for the cost per big bale, which the article puts around $152,000. Given the clean up cost to salvage what's left, the fact that the bales are worth several times the price when broken down into smaller bales, and all other factors involved, it's just a losing proposition for them any way they go, and I can easily see it being a million dollar mess....

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mkirsch

07-08-2014 05:49:15
65.199.189.6



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
What makes you think that you could actually get these kids to WORK, if you made them go to work for the farm as punishment? They have no respect for anyone, not even their parents. Heck, their parents are probably in complete denial, "My little angel would NEVER do such a thing!"

Good luck getting anything useful out of them. You can't intimidate or yell at them. You can't lay hands on them in any way. They know this, and will just push your buttons and dare you to try.

If you're lucky, they will just slack off. At worst, they will be vindictive little ba$tards and cause even more damage.

"Hmm, what happens if I throw this pitchfork/rock/cinderblock/chunk-of-iron into the bale buster?"

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John T

07-08-2014 05:16:21
216.249.72.121



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
Sadly you're probably right, the kids will likely not be severely punished (as far as civil or criminal law is concerned) now what their parents may do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OPINION: The barn owners insurance company could seek civil damages against the persons who committed arson and to what extent (if any) the law holds their parents liable. I doubt (but cant possibly know NOT having read their insurance contract) the parents have insurance to cover the civil torts of their children such as arson and to replace the structure their kids torched. If the child burned the parents home down their own home loss may be covered (absent perhaps any exceptions if a family member committed arson) but if their children burn down another persons barn, the parents homeowners insurance on their house may NOT cover another structure (own home is insured but likely NOT other property), especially if the other structure is intentionally burned down.

NOTE AND DISCLAIMER Insurance law is a matter of strict contract interpretation and NOT by what myself an attorney or any other person thinks is right or fair (makes no difference) ITS "PRIMARILY" WHAT THE CONTRACT SAYS THAT MATTERS AND IS ENFORCEABLE. I have NOT read the insurance contract nor researched the laws of the state where the damage occurred, so whether or not the parents may be held liable for the torts of their children or whether the parents have any kind of insurance that covers a structure their kids burn down I DO NOT KNOW NOR CAN ANYONE KNOW NOT HAVING READ THE INSURANCE CONTRACT (or what they think is fair or their own contract says)

SO NO WARRANTY GET IT LOL

John T Country Lawyer

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ericlb

07-08-2014 04:52:59
67.142.161.22



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
i wouldnt hold too much hope on punishing the kids, 3 years ago here 2, 15 year old kids were playing with bottle rockets [ fireworks are illeagle year around here and have been for decades due to the souronding forest] they were local kids, the fire they started burned over 100,ooo acres, thats one hundred thousand acres, cost 8 homes and numurous outbuildings and vehicles, kids got probation



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AlanA

07-08-2014 05:03:23
108.71.120.243



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to ericlb, 07-08-2014 04:52:59  
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Kind of makes you wish they would bring back statutory corporal punishment. Tie 'em to a pole and give 'em 20 or so good stripes with a heavy leather belt. Small kids pull that crap, you stripe the parents instead...



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JWalker

07-08-2014 03:29:03
72.52.96.18



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
This was not in South Carolina was it?



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NCWayne

07-08-2014 06:22:11
173.188.169.54



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to JWalker, 07-08-2014 03:29:03  
Yes. I don"t know the exact location, but it was down around Lamar.



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MarkB_MI

07-08-2014 02:52:29
70.194.10.216



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
If either of the kids' parents are homeowners, the farm's insurance carrier can and will go after the parents' homeowner insurance.



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John T

07-08-2014 06:19:30
216.249.72.121



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to MarkB_MI, 07-08-2014 02:52:29  
"the farm's insurance carrier can and will go after the parents' homeowner insurance"

Of course, I haven't read your or any other persons home insurance contract, but does the insurance you have which protects YOUR HOME against fire and tornado etc., also cover a house down the street if your kids torch it??

Its been a while since I read my homeowners insurance contract, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say they will replace A DIFFERENT HOME if my kids burn it down?? It only protects MY HOME... (and may not even that if a family member intentionally torches it???)

Just asking as I'm always curious to learn something new... There's all sorts of different policies and different insurance products out there, maybe a homeowners policy covers a DIFFERENT HOME if your kids burn it, but it could be harder to get underwritten and more expensive JUST ASKING is all.

John T

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MarkB_MI

07-08-2014 06:53:00
198.208.251.23



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to John T, 07-08-2014 06:19:30  
Hey John,

As you know, all homeowners policies include personal liability coverage, say $300K. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought parents can be held liable for the actions of their minor children.

I did a bit of googling, and came up with the paper at the link below. According to its author, the case law is mixed when it comes to arson by children of policy holders. It seems to matter what the intention was of the arsonists. For example, if they started a fire not intending it to destroy a building, then the damage might be covered. On the other hand, if they set out to burn down the structure, that would be a non-covered "intentional" act.

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John T

07-08-2014 08:31:10
216.249.72.121



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to MarkB_MI, 07-08-2014 06:53:00  
Yes, in certain cases a parent can be held liable for their children's torts. Indeed the particular states laws plus WHAT THE CONTRACT ACTUALLY SAYS determines if indeed the parents homeowners covers their kid torching another house/barn. From experience with insurance companies, I just don't envision them rushing in there eager (drag them in kicking and screaming lol) to pay for what that those kids did...... BUT THE POLICY RULES no ones opinion as to what's fair or "should be" covered. As far as personal liability coverage in a typical homeowners policy, I view that more about you're liable if someone is injured on your property (or even if you drive and injure someone) and you're found negligent VERSUS you're liable if your kids go elsewhere and torch a barn. BUT AGAIN ITS NOT WHAT I OR YOU THINK ITS WHAT THE POLICY AND STATE LAW SAYS. I nor anyone cant say NOT having read the homeowners policy, but a homeowners policy that pays for damages if your child torches someone else barn Id have to read and research it prior to rendering a more professional legal opinion... As you well noted INTENTIONAL might be most relevant !!!

As always, fun chatting

John T Country Lawyer

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ShadetreeRet

07-07-2014 22:32:15
184.4.13.135



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to NCWayne, 07-07-2014 22:21:49  
You can't get blood from a turnip, but can sure make the turnip wish you could! How old are these kids? It's true, there is not much chance that they will ever be able or even required to pay for the damage, but they could be made to work for this company for a specified number of hours, (and I don't mean just a week or two). Put them to work busting and re-baling the straw, and they just may get an idea of what it means to have to work your backside off for something and then lose it.

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rrlund

07-08-2014 06:07:56
162.250.26.144



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to ShadetreeRet, 07-07-2014 22:32:15  
They'd stand around skrewing off,trying to break things until you got so frustrated you'd tell them to hit the road,guaranteed.



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ShadetreeRet

07-08-2014 23:18:51
184.4.13.135



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to rrlund, 07-08-2014 06:07:56  
Randy, I understand what you are saying. What I meant in my original statement was if a judge had the bells to order them to work under strict supervision. Otherwise, I would be in trouble, because if they started messing up I would beat the crap out of every one of them!



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jennifer408

07-07-2014 23:21:24
67.142.162.26



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to ShadetreeRet, 07-07-2014 22:32:15  
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yea, but that would be cruel an unusual punishment. just like the poor folks on death roe. never mind the fact that they beat,raped and killed someones dottir in a very violent way.
to let the poor sap get beat,raped and killed so at least they might have an understanding of why that was not a very good way to go about life doesn't seem cruel to me. just saying

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John in La

07-08-2014 17:37:59
96.33.136.54



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to jennifer408, 07-07-2014 23:21:24  
Heck no A/C is cruel and unusual punishment for death row inmates according to this federal judge.



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gwstang

07-08-2014 18:30:28
71.42.172.242



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to John in La, 07-08-2014 17:37:59  
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Say What? Guess it's ok for inmates but not too hard on our brave men/women serving in desert climates? They live in hard conditions...so should the inmates. Didn't sheriff Joe start making them live in tents and tougher conditions?



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kickinbull

07-08-2014 04:37:02
64.250.68.12



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 Re: Expensive match.....only costs about a million.... in reply to jennifer408, 07-07-2014 23:21:24  
And eye for an eye...... take everything, every last thing those kids call theirs, and burn it!.Then make them work as suggested.



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