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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE!

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Dr. Walt

06-11-2014 10:20:25
12.2.223.79



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I understand basic 120/240 electrical wiring - ie: Red & Black (HOT); White Neutral (Hot Return); Green Insulated (Ground - and Equipment ground); Bare Copper (Ground - and/or stray or fault current ground).

Now, here"s my question(s) - Knowing that the Insulated Green & the Bare Copper are BOTH Grounds, are they two SEPARATE animals having the SAME FUNCTION , or are they entirely different. Can they be BONDED TOGETHER and used as both Equipment Ground AND Stray/Fault Ground - or must Equipment Ground and Stray/Fault Ground be isolated from each other (even though they are both Grounds) ? ? ? !

Doc

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Dr. Walt

06-12-2014 01:01:06
12.2.223.79



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
A very profound THANK YOU to everyone that responded.

Still a little hazy, but it's a lot clearer now to my line of thinking.

Thanks Again!

Doc



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Traditional Farmer

06-11-2014 18:09:11
67.237.187.86



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
You might want to consider that almost all the good knowledgable electricians I know are almost all Bubbas and most Dr's I know can't hardly change a light bulb.



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Dr. Walt

06-12-2014 01:34:20
12.2.223.79



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Traditional Farmer, 06-11-2014 18:09:11  
Traditional Farmer:

This Dr. can do FAR MORE than just change a light bulb. When I was 15 years old (I'm 67 now), I built my own Black & White TV from scratch. I'm also a Ham Radio operator; and when I worked in the Mining Industry (Union certified Top Millwright / Senior Underground Mine Maintenance Mechanic), I worked around very high voltage electricity - ie: 4160 VAC @ 1000 Amps and I've seen first hand just how powerful that stuff is. I was 20 feet away when the bucket of a Scoop-Tram accidently severed the 4160 cable to the Continuous Miner (Roadheader). It was like ten Fourth-of-July fireworks displays going off at the same instant. The explosion picked me up and threw me back about 30 feet and the flash temporarily flash-blinded me. So, if anything, I'm OVERLY CAREFUL with Electricity.

Doc

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Traditional Farmer

06-12-2014 08:35:33
67.237.187.86



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-12-2014 01:34:20  
Not saying you're not careful but what what you describe as your experience with getting knocked down etc I believe I'd take Bubba the electrician's advice first(LOL)



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WGWKy2

06-11-2014 17:50:28
98.23.54.117



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
Can't offer anything, never touch the stuff, but I did notice the pros keep the green, bare and white separate until they get to the "magic" main box then screw them all to the same bar inside. I always wondered but not in my paygrade I guess.



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buickanddeere

06-11-2014 20:40:03
209.240.122.60



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to WGWKy2, 06-11-2014 17:50:28  
Not supposed to put them on the same bus bar .
Supposed to be a bond to hold the neutral to earth potential at the service panel, that's it. Panels downstream keep the ground and neutral separate. Otherwise neutral current will flow on the ground system and raise the grounded parts above true earth potential.



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old-9

06-11-2014 16:50:53
67.236.99.77



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
Dr. Walt , What kind of curcit, ie what are you feeding? Many computer curcits are "isolated grounds". I wired a lot of stores like in a mall that required an isolated grounded recepticale. That "insulated/ isolated " ground wire had to be bonded only to a special ground in main panel... We also had to ground all metal boxes seperately from the isolated ground. Grounding in Hospitals and operating rooms,Explosive areas, swimming pools, require a lot special grounding. Darn I haven't thought this hard for along time. Joe

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John T

06-11-2014 16:05:45
216.249.72.121



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
Good questions Dr. shows some people actually think about all this stuff and actually it can save your life or prevent a fire ya know!! You asked for EE's, well that's me HOWEVER I been long retired and rusty as an old nail and NOT familiar with the latest codes so NO WARRANTY.

Besides, Billy Bob and Bubba who wired their garage over a case of beer can NOT be kept away lol as all are entitled to their opinions be they right or wrong, lay or professional, and they love electrical and legal questions best ya know. The more the merrier, bless all here who try to help, but just consider the source if youre making an important or life critical decision!!

"Now, here"s my question(s) - Knowing that the Insulated Green & the Bare Copper are BOTH Grounds, are they two SEPARATE animals having the SAME FUNCTION , or are they entirely different."

In say a 3 wire 120 volt branch circuit you have the UngrounDED Conductor (Hot),,,,,The Grounded Conductor (Neutral),,,,,,,,and an Equipment GroundING Safety Conductor......Okay the EGC can be EITHER insulated Green (like used inside conduit) orrrrrrrrrrrr it can be bare copper (like in Romex) BOTH SERVE THE SAME PURPOSE AND EITHER WORKS. Its purpose is to provide a dedicated current return ONLY for fault current. Its NEVER to carry normal return current, that's the job of the Neutral Grounded Conductor which is insulated. I bet you wouldn't remove the insulation and touch it standing barefooted on concrete would ya??? cuz if so you risk placing your body in a parallel current path with a live conductor YIKES....... However, the Equipment GroundING Conductor is often tied to the outer metallic conductive cases of tools or appliances and you do touch them. Another reason to NOT switch or mix n match Neutrals and Grounds!!!

"Can they be BONDED TOGETHER and used as both Equipment Ground AND Stray/Fault Ground - or must Equipment Ground and Stray/Fault Ground be isolated from each other (even though they are both Grounds) ? ? ? !

1) At the main service entrance somewhere,,, YES the Neutral (Whites) anddddddddd Equipment Ground Buss (Greens and bares) anddddddddddd GroundING Electrodes (via No 4 bare copper Grounding Electrode Conductor) are indeed effectively all tied together !!!!!!!!!!!

Dr., sounds like you may be confusing Earth GroundING of the incoming Utility Neutral with Equipment GroundING Conductors??????? The Utility Neutral(s) are earth grounded out on the aerial HV Primary (maybe 9600 volts) as well as the LV Secondary (120/240 volts) as well as at the homes service entrance often at one of three places: Weatherhead riser,,,,,Inside Meter Base,,,,,,Inside service entrance panel. THAT EARTH GROUND OF THE NEUTRAL IS FOR SURGE AND STRAY CURRENTS AND LIGHTNING PROTECTION
AND TO TIE THE SYSTEM AT A COMMON LOW VOLTAGE POTENTIAL IE MOTHER EARTH.

That's NOT the same as the Equipment Safety GroudING Conductors in the home be they green or bare etc.

Often the Neutral is attached to a bare No 4 copper wire knows as the GroundING Electrode Conductor which is attached to a proper GroundING Electrode such as metal water pipes or building structural or foundation steel or "made" electrodes such as copper rods driven into mother earth.

So you have GroundING Electrode Conductors (to earth ground Neutral, often No 4 bare copper wire) and Equipment GroundING Conductors (bare or green insulated which run with 3 wire or more branch circuits for carrying fault current ONLY.

Sooooooo That help,,,,,,,,Can others add to this (EE's and Electricians and Bubbas all welcome)

Nuff said

John T

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LAA

06-11-2014 20:24:20
86.51.147.113



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to John T, 06-11-2014 16:05:45  
It really kills all of you so called ''professionals'' to think that someone else could possibly know something that did not take 4 or 8 years to learn. As far as your exhalted legal advice, all I ever noticed you do is tell people to go to a local lawyer, I'm sure that is sound advice in the majority of cases, but hardly profound.



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Mike (WA)

06-11-2014 12:55:40
69.10.199.61



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
Now that's just not fair! The Bubbas get to go into Full Bloviate mode whenever there's a legal question. Why should electrical be any different?

By the way, the simple answer to your issue is to paint the bare copper wire green- then you won't be able to tell the difference, and the problem will simply disappear. Now, that wasn't so hard, was it???

Signed, Another Doc.



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John T

06-11-2014 16:10:51
216.249.72.121



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Mike (WA), 06-11-2014 12:55:40  
RIGHT ON CO COUNSEL!!!!!!! Yep Billy Bob and Bubba are all over legal questions, so why not electrical also lol lol those are their two favorite topics !!!! All are entitled to their own opinions, just NOT their own facts......Regardless, God Bless all here who try to help.......

John T



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buickanddeere

06-11-2014 12:08:06
184.151.36.254



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
Ain't no difference in the function of a bare ground and a green insulated ground. It's just cost saving to use bare where code doesn't spec a layer of insulation.



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ShadetreeRet

06-11-2014 10:56:33
184.4.13.135



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
The green equipment ground is just that. It will ground your equipment should there be an internal short or leak which prevents you from getting a "tingle". The white ground is an integral component of the power source. I fear should one combine the two there would be major problems. I know someone else will be able to explain it in more detail, but I sure would not combine the two. (As understood by semi-Bubba).

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Dr. Walt

06-11-2014 11:11:13
12.2.223.79



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to ShadetreeRet, 06-11-2014 10:56:33  
ShadetreeRet:

PLEASE re-read the post!

WHITE is NOT A GROUND & should never be used as such, it is a Current RETURN.

I was asking about the GREEN GROUND and the BARE COPPER GROUND.

Doc



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ShadetreeRet

06-11-2014 11:32:03
184.4.13.135



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 11:11:13  
Most humble apologies! I did mis-read that, so I'll shut up and let someone who knows what they are talking about explain. BUBBA



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kajun

06-11-2014 12:58:49
206.251.164.114



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to ShadetreeRet, 06-11-2014 11:32:03  
Well done , sir . Loved the repartee <:)



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greg k

06-11-2014 10:53:27
70.197.227.223



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 Re: EE's - NO Bubba's PLEASE! in reply to Dr. Walt, 06-11-2014 10:20:25  
Typically the bare ground is found in Romex© and the green insulated ground is in MC cable, single strand (then), or commercial assemblies. When there is an isolated ground, such as in hospitals, they are usually identified with a yellow tracer or stripe. In the case of an iisolated ground the both terminate to the ground bay in the panel, but one grounds the box and yoke of the outlet and the other grounds the equipment only. Most of the time just one ground wire does both.

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