Farm......fire.....question

NCWayne

Well-known Member
Just reading the post below about the fire that got the two machines, but thankfully didn"t get the building. Personally I know of at least two barn fires near me over the years where both resulted in total losses of both the structure as well as all of the equipment, crop, and anything else inside. Taken a step further, how many barns have gone up in smoke and also taken out prized livestock along with everything else?

That said, with the probability of fires so prevalent on a farm due to a combination of hot machinery, possibility of electrical problems causing sparks, etc, etc, along with the presence of both petroleum products and dry, flammable material (hay, etc), it begs a question. Why don"t they install any kind of fire suppression system in farm structures?

Yes, I know the cost of a system that is in a business, etc, and required to meet code requirements, would be rather high. Thing is even the cost for that kind of system would be rather small when compared to the cost of just one BIG tractor going up in smoke. That all aside, since it seems the majority of farm structures do not have any kind of fire protection, it must not be a required thing and therefore not covered under any kind of code. To that end, I can"t see it costing that much to hang a piping system, with sprinklers, and simply put it in operation by opening a hand valve tied in to the water supply. The main thing is that it would allow you to at least hold down the flames, if not extinguishing the fire, in the structure should the need ever arise. Unfortunately I see way too many posts like the one below, often showing tens, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars worth oflost equipment, crop, livestock, etc, etc, all over , maybe, a few thousand dollars worth of valves and fittings.

Can anyone explain to me why something so simple, and that makes so much sense, (to me at least) is not being done by the very folks in this country that should have the most common sense....not to mention the most to lose by not doing it????
 
Other than the cost of the system you would also need access to enough water to do some good. Most farm wells won't provide that, so storage would need to be built. That would make it a costly venture for sure. Also, even tho it's always a disaster and news worthy, and even with all you said, farm fires are pretty rare. I'll be it's a rare year where you hear of 2 and probly go several years between on average.
 
The first thing is the cost. Sprinkler systems require a large volume of water.

The other issue is freezing. You'd have to heat the buildings....that brings us back to cost.
 
Along with what jon says......a hanging system, to be time effective, would have to be charged at all times. Livestock buildings may be warm (thawed), but not other outbuildings. But the typical pitiful water supply would be the killer.
 
For starters if you are going to run water lines into all of your buildings you are going to have to have a heating system in place to keep all those pipes from freezing and bursting.
Once you factor in the cost to heat an uninsulated cold storage building the feasability of your idea fades away.
For a barn you can't bring animals into a building heated above freezing then put them out into -40 weather without causing all kinds of health problems.
 
On the other hand, if you just eliminate 20% of the the stupid things people do that lead to fires it would be a GREAT improvement.

Simple things like not throwing butts around, keeping tractors CLEAN of grass, chaff and debris, ESPECIALLY important with the newer ones with heat shields around the exhaust components, keeping electrical panels and electrical wiring in good order, and here in the north, keeping block heaters and their associated cords in good repair.
 
There is a dry pipe sprinkler system that only flows water into the pipes when a sprinkler head is activated. they use them in colder climates in outbuildings that aren"t heated. Volume of flow would be a bigger issue as sprinkler systems usually have a larger feed than domestic water systems. Non-city water supplies may not have enough flow. Bill
 
As stated below, machine sheds and barns are rarely heated, and water supply if any ussually only consists of an ordinary hydrant. A few other points, if hay gets on fire and it CAN ignite itself if in the right circumstance, water won't put it out. Maybe keep the flames down a little is all. Other materials such as oils and fuels and some chemicals if on fire would also fit into the same catagory of water not gonna do much good. Its not like an office building fire where you might have a few sheets of paper on fire and alot of smoke. Something has to set off a sprinkler system. These types of buildings are often un-attended by people. Often well ventilated if relying on smoke to be detected and set off the sprinkler. Often have really high ceilings where the system would be installed if relying on heat to set it off. By the time it was heat activated, it would likely be to late for the fire. By that time it would of likely engulfed something that would be really hard to put out with a few trickles of water. Its not just the cost of the system, in alot of cases it probly wouldn't be as affective as you think it would be. A sprinkler system is moreless designed to put a small fire out before it is out of controll. In a barn or machine shed, it would likely be out of control before the system was activated. If activated then, it would really only aid the fire department in extinguishing the fire, and not solely extinguishing it itself. My 2 cents.
 
The biggest thing is the cost. Initially, for the piping and pump, and later for maintenance. Money is tight on most farms, and I know you guys mostly don't farm, but the bigger machinery and bigger operation only bring bigger bills. And that is our profit.....
 
Excellent topic. I know a very little about sprinkler systems, like to hear from an expert. However, there is an orange PVC piping material, you just glue it together, designed specially for sprinler systems. There are also dry types, pressurized with air, waiting for the head to melt and release. . There are also systems filled with anti-freeze mixture; look at the sprinkler heads in the car canopies at motels, they"re part of an anti-freeze part of the system.
Why does nobody do it?? We just don"t.
 
As mentioned you need a large volume of water for a dry system. We built an 8400' square foot building and it needed 685(it was over 600 but this is the number from memory) gpm for dry system. Large tanks and a 50 hp pump, the pump was 60k alone. System in building was 100k and 8" or 10" supply line needed from tanks to building.
 
Dry pipe sprinkler is cheap, 2-4$ per square foot. The water supply is the problem. Bigger buildings like agricultural you are getting into 1000 USgpm+ pumps, heated pumphouses and a reservoir.

For many farms a water supply already exists as a pond somewhere on the place. You can use a used pump for the system, can't do that in regular commercial buildings.
 

A few years ago our town had a sprinkler system installed in a 100 year old meeting building. It is partly wet and partly dry. It cost a LOT of money. If the insurance companies could effectively save money by giving discounts that would pay it back in ten years, everyone would be doing it. The problem is that the structures just don't economically warrant the expense. Wayne, would you put a $75,000 sprinkler system in your building with an $80,000 replacement cost?
 
Well a lot of older barns went up in flames here in Ohio a few years back. They were all arson and IIRC they finally caught the guy and also IIRC he was a fireman or retired from some part related to fireman.
 
(quoted from post at 23:56:39 04/30/14) The first thing is the cost. Sprinkler systems require a large volume of water.

The other issue is freezing. You'd have to heat the buildings....that brings us back to cost.

What large volume of water? When a sprinkler operates. It's only over the fire. It's not every head on the system. If the well and pump will flow two sprinkler heads, that is lots. The sprinkler system detects and extinguishes or holds the fire in check.
Ever heard tell of a dry sprinkler system? The pipe work is filled with compressed air until a head opens.
 
First things first. Most barn fires are from lightning and as soon as the strike hits it is all gone. I have seen that happen, 20 seconds after the strike started the barn was fully engulfed in flames. No sprinkler system could start fast enough to do any good. What the others are from is most likely somebody burning something that gets away from them that is unatended so no way would anybody be there to start the sprinkler and sprinklers would be inside, not outside where those fires get started. Next is arson that takes the buildings and an arsnist would know enough to disable any sprinkler system before they started the fire. Electrical problems would have the fire going before you would know it to be able to turn on a dry sprinkler system. And think about what it would take to install something in a large 100 year old bank barm with main floor and then a mow above. cost way more than the barn is worth.
 
Need at least a 2 inch water supply.

Most wells are 3/4 or 1 inch, and output might be slower than that after the first 80 gallons...

Piping to all buildings scattered in a farm yard.

Set up to handle the deep freeze we have up here need the dry pipe setups.

Fires aren't actually that common.

Man you are talking some mega dollars. Don't think $50,000 would catch it per farm? 900 farmers in my county, that is $45,000,000 just for one county.

Then, EPA will say no way to water on fuel or chemical or herbicide storage buildings, and they are into a zero tolerance mode any more so then you get to retrofit 2-3 buildings with a far more costly powder system.

No thanks!

Paul
 
For one, water doesn't control all types of fires (ABC) so one size doesn't fit all- especially in all the diverse things in a machine shed or livestock barn. Expense and the maintenance required are a couple other things to consider. To me it would be like someone installing a halon system on their backhoe. I guess if you have the will and the money it can be done.

Another consideration, to be automatic, there has to be a way to activate the system - either through smoke detectors or heat detectors wired up to a processor via flow switches to activate the whole operation. A jockey pump is used to maintain the water pressure in the system when the main fire pump isn't running. That brings the 55 to 60 psi city water up to the required 105 psi plus water pressure. So having a good supply of water at the required static pressure is another consideration. Then there are tamper switches to alert and ensure the system hasn't been turned off and is functional. The "dry systems" I'm familiar with use an on-demand air compressor that maintains about 25-35 psi in the system. I do a monthly churn test and every 6 months a licensed plumber trained in fire systems (and a JD-50 owner) checks the flow and tamper switches.
 
(quoted from post at 05:22:54 05/01/14)
(quoted from post at 23:56:39 04/30/14) The first thing is the cost. Sprinkler systems require a large volume of water.

The other issue is freezing. You'd have to heat the buildings....that brings us back to cost.

What large volume of water? When a sprinkler operates. It's only over the fire. It's not every head on the system. If the well and pump will flow two sprinkler heads, that is lots. The sprinkler system detects and extinguishes or holds the fire in check.
Ever heard tell of a dry sprinkler system? The pipe work is filled with compressed air until a head opens.

That's one type of sprinkler system. The more expensive type.

What's more common and affordable are the kind that have water in the pipes all the time, and set off all the heads at once when a fire is detected.

To set off the head only where the fire is you'd need a complex and expensive set of heat and smoke sensors. You see that in data centers where it makes financial sense to limit the damage to priceless data, but everyone gets wet in the general office spaces.
 
What large volume of water? When a sprinkler operates. It's only over the fire. It's not every head on the system. If the well and pump will flow two sprinkler heads, that is lots. The sprinkler system detects and extinguishes or holds the fire in check.
Ever heard tell of a dry sprinkler system? The pipe work is filled with compressed air until a head opens.

For a sprinkler system to be effective it needs to be the proper type for what the building is used for.
Most ag buildings would need a deluge system which require a large volume of water. A deluge system doesn't use the sprinklers that have a fuseable link like you mentioned. They use sprinklers that are always open, and a control valve that is triggered by heat detectors.

Even though the dry systems use the sprinklers with the fuseable links, they still require a large volume of water to be effective. Reference SMS's and Ken Macfarlane's posts.
 
Try putting out a barn fire with a hose supplied by a typical farm well. That"s the supply you have to deal with.
 
Water supply would be the biggest concern when you're not hooked to a municipal water system... There's ways to make it work but everything costs money. Probably need some large head tanks to flood the system, etc. as a 15 gpm well pump isn't going to cut it in an effective time frame. At the end of the day, in the cost/benefit analysis I suspect most times it doesn't pencil. Insurance companies don't always favor sprinkler systems as much as one might think either.... as malfunctions and such can at times cause a lot of water damage... so sometimes bearing the risk of fire is the lesser evil.

Rod
 
None of my outbuildings would be appropriate for sprinkler systems, for the simple reason the system would be frozen three months of the year, and down for another for repairs. As well, my water system couldn"t accommodate that load, which would require a water tower.
 
I've already had that discussion with my fire chief,told him that they were to take an outside defensive position, NO ONE goes in those barns for ANYTHING. There's nothing in those barns, and the barns themselves that is worth a fireman getting injured or killed.

Had a insurance company inspector that chided me about cluttered conditions in my buildings, said that it would be difficult for fire personnel. Told him I'd fight the first fireman who tried to go in there!
 
I think you're mistaken about what is required in terms of systems... Most I have seen are dry systems, in frozen buildings... with individually fused heads. Depending on local codes, it's quite acceptable.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 05:39:44 05/01/14) First things first. Most barn fires are from lightning and as soon as the strike hits it is all gone. I have seen that happen, 20 seconds after the strike started the barn was fully engulfed in flames. No sprinkler system could start fast enough to do any good. What the others are from is most likely somebody burning something that gets away from them that is unatended so no way would anybody be there to start the sprinkler and sprinklers would be inside, not outside where those fires get started. Next is arson that takes the buildings and an arsnist would know enough to disable any sprinkler system before they started the fire. Electrical problems would have the fire going before you would know it to be able to turn on a dry sprinkler system. And think about what it would take to install something in a large 100 year old bank barm with main floor and then a mow above. cost way more than the barn is worth.[/qu

Leroy, I don't believe that there is any sprinkler system that has to be turned on manually
 
(quoted from post at 08:49:26 05/01/14) I've already had that discussion with my fire chief,told him that they were to take an outside defensive position, NO ONE goes in those barns for ANYTHING. There's nothing in those barns, and the barns themselves that is worth a fireman getting injured or killed.

Had a insurance company inspector that chided me about cluttered conditions in my buildings, said that it would be difficult for fire personnel. Told him I'd fight the first fireman who tried to go in there!

Where's the fun in that? How is the poor firefighter supposed to get his adrenaline fix if he can't go inside.
 
(quoted from post at 16:19:39 05/01/14) I think you're mistaken about what is required in terms of systems... Most I have seen are dry systems, in frozen buildings... with individually fused heads. Depending on local codes, it's quite acceptable.

Rod
A dry system is the only option for most farm buildings because they're not heated. That doesn't mean they would be the most effective option.
The typical farm won't have a sufficient water supply for even a dry system.
 
There's lots of systems installed in buildings that to not have municipal water systems. Local school has one... and they had a fire. It saved the building. That said, I do not know how it works in that building. I suspect it has a large header tank to supply the water.

Rod
 
Having read all of the posts below, there IS an alternative. LARGE, automatic and/or operator actuated DRY CHEMICAL fire suppression systems. I'm not a Farmer, I'm a Miner, so I don't know if this type of system would work in a large barn or around livestock. But when I worked underground in the Mines, all of our Diesel powered equipment had on-board automatic and/or operator actuated Dry Chemical fire suppression systems.

There are only three types of power allowed in an underground mine: Compressed Air - ie: Air Track Drills & their attendant supply hoses; Electrical - ie: Continuous Miners / Roadheaders with their power cables of 4160 Volts AC @ 1000 Amps; and Diesel fuel. Gasoline is PROHIBITED due to it's highly flammable & explosive nature. Since a Mine is a CONFINED SPACE an underground fire would be DEADLY, that's why all Miners are required to wear a "Self-Rescuer", a mask that when it is removed from the canister on your belt it becomes activated and converts Carbon MONOXIDE (Deadly) to Carbon Dioxide which is a breathable gas.

If I were a Farmer, I would seriously consider installing an automatic on-board Dry Chemical fire suppression system on all of my expensive equipment and another separate system in my Machine Sheds.

Each machine that we had underground had a canister that contained 50 pounds of "Purple K" dry chem that was pressurized by a large (2.5" x 6") CO2 cartridge. We also had in the underground Shops and elsewhere around the Mine, large portable dry chem extinguishers on wheeled dollies that carried 200 pounds of "Purple K" and powered by 4 of those large CO2 cartridges, and discharged it's contents through a 20' hose.

Doc
 
Take a look at Ken Macfarlane's and SMS's posts and you'll get an idea of what it takes if you don't have municipal water.
 

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