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Union Workers

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Friday the friend who I occasionally drive dump truck for told me that this AM he wanted me to haul from a certain quarry, but to plan to get there after 7:15, because they are union there and they drag their feet. Over the weekend I thought about it some, especially how does that company compete with non union quarries. This AM I found out how. There are no company trucks there now. Twenty years ago they probably had fifty. They no longer drill blast or crush, they contract it out, and the contractor comes in for a few weeks every other month or so. It appears that the only union employees now are the two loader operators and maybe the scale guy.
 
I have never been a union worker, however
that being said it should be somewhat
obvious that if a company is union AND
competitive then they must not all be as
lazy as some make them out to be. Either
that or everyone else is lazier than they
like to let on. The only real difference
between the two is who you are working
for, the company or the union. A turf
doesn't care where it comes from.
 

Mexico does not have unions and they work for $30 or so a week.

With that said, unions generally start out as a good thing and then deteriorate over time.

And so do non union jobs as the unions disappear around them.
 
I can't speak on the union side of things, but I've worked in quite a few different quarries over the years and very few do any drilling or blasting on their own anymore. Back in the 70's and early 80's most still did all of their own work, but nowdays, some may still drill on their own, but due to the stricter MSHA, and ATF regulations concerning explosives and their storage, handling, etc, very few, including the big names like Martin Marietta, and Vulcan, contract out their blasting.
 
I have been a union worker. Actually I think we
worked harder than most people think. The job I
held for the most years wasn't union. But we were
paid almost the same, but had better benefits. My
boss also paid me more if I produced more. The
reason was he wanted someone who would stay and he
didn't have to worry about doing the job. Would I
have made as much with out unions. I doubt it.
 
Couple of years ago a friend got fired from his union job. He's an equipment operator. He was running a backhoe on a pipe laying job in a city. They could only work nights because of traffic. The night they were supposed to finish their part of the job the pipe layers were a little behind and he was sitting on the hoe waiting to backfill the last section. He got out of the hoe and got in the trench to help the pipe layers. They finished about 15 minutes before they would have had to stop. The next night they were supposed to haul equipment out. He showed up like he was supposed to and the foreman stopped him and told him go home and report to the company office the next morning. When he got there a manager handed him his walking papers for crossing over into another unions job. One of the pipe layers had file a grievance and the easy way out for the company to settle it was to fire him. So you pro union guys tell me again how great unions are when they can get someone fired for taking initiative and doing extra work. Don't try handing me that old line about taking work away form other people. When you hire on with someone they are paying for your labor and loyalty during work hours. He really did nothing wrong. But according to the pipe layers union he was supposed to sit on that hoe doing nothing while he waited on others to finish their jobs.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 18:29:08 04/14/14) Friday the friend who I occasionally drive dump truck for told me that this AM he wanted me to haul from a certain quarry, but to plan to get there after 7:15, because they are union there and they drag their feet. Over the weekend I thought about it some, especially how does that company compete with non union quarries. This AM I found out how. There are no company trucks there now. Twenty years ago they probably had fifty. They no longer drill blast or crush, they contract it out, and the contractor comes in for a few weeks every other month or so. It appears that the only union employees now are the two loader operators and maybe the scale guy.
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Look on Buffalo News site "Lockport Firefighters". Seems they put remote garage door openers in the fire trucks and the FF union has filed a grievance because the police dispatchers have always controlled the doors remotely and the firefighters don't want to take their "work"
And we wonder why taxes in New York have driven out business!
 
Never been a union worker myself. My father was before retirement. Kinda know the ends and outs of it both ways. Both ways have its pros and cons. Union regulations may not always be in the best interests of certain situations. For example, I know of a situation where a union passed a rule that workers could only work for a certain amount of time. These workers could not leave their positions untill a new crew came to replace them. In many cases, if these workers were allowed to continue work for 15 minutes, they could finish job and go home. Instead, they have to quit work and sit there doing nothing for say 1 1/2 hours waiting for crew change. On the other hand, non-union employers can more less do what they want (pay, hours, benefits). That doesn't always put the employee in a good spot either. In my rural area there is some non-union factory work going on. The reason these places come here is because they can get non-union workers. They can hire people for less money whether it be in compensation or benefits. PROS and CONS both ways.
 
I worked for a union freight line for 38 years and if you screwed around or slow and didn't get the work done you were gone. If you where late to work over three times with out a legitimate reason you were gone. In our area no non union freight lines had the health care,pension or wages package that we did. We never crossed a picket line but companies that were on strike always had an alternative place to drop freight and not cross picket lines and at times they would bring a company truck out to road and unload onto their truck along side of road.
 
I"ve worked union, and non union. Union work allowed me to
own my own home, have good health care, and a decent
retirement. Non union work was small pay checks, no health
care, and no retirement. I am not rich, but I have a lot more
security than my friends from the non union shops.

And now retired, I have not one, but 2 tractors!

The opportunity to work union was truly a blessing. I am sorry
that all you guys didn"t have that opportunity.

God Bless.
 
I've never had a union job, not for a single day. But as a salaried worker I've had plenty of opportunity to observe how things work in a union shop in different companies. Even had a grievance or two filed against me for carrying a part or package from point to point.

The glory days of the union are long past. Most companies have all but eliminated union jobs by replacing them with subcontractors or moving the work out of the country. The unions are a shadow of what they once were and no longer wield the kind of clout they once did in industry and politics. Twenty years ago it would have been unthinkable for Michigan to pass a right-to-work law, yet one breezed right through a year ago.

The stories of featherbedding are true, if exaggerated, and the unions' excesses are as much to blame for their decline as are union-busting efforts by industry. But the unions deserve much credit for raising the standard of living for workers and improving workplace safety. Life for the average American worker would be much different today were it not for unions. Google "Triangle Shirtwaist Factory" and "Battle of Blair Mountain" if you think otherwise.
 
I worked union construction for years. It enabled me to have plenty of time off because the company wasn't able to bid competitively with non union, the jobs frequently were shut down due to strikes, and I had the honor of paying for several VERY nice vehicles/homes/etc for union officers while I handed them part of my check every week.

I finally wised up and left the union, got a job that paid more, worked steady, has BETTER insurance, and didn't have an extortionist waiting with their hand in my pocket.

Unions have been the driving force that ruined the work ethic of this country.

I don't get in their cool aid line any longer.
 
If unions, in general, just looked out for the workers and tried to make sure the company/municipality and the workers would have a good long term mutually beneficial relationship then things would be fine. But that doesn't happen very often. What usually happens is the union pushes the company to the point of insolvency or out of the country, or in the case of municipalities they cause taxes to balloon. A man should be paid what he's worth and not more because he's in a union or less because he's not. Just remember the union bosses are never going without while the workers are on strike.

There are pro's and con's to both sides and it's rare to find a happy medium over the long term.
 
Hypothetical situation: If you were building a house and it came down between two bids, one with union workers and one with non-union workers, what would the price point be?
In other words, if the house could be built with non-union work and you would pay $200,000, but the same exact house with union workers cost you $400,000, would you pay $400,000 just so you could justify your union stance?
I doubt it. It doesn't work both ways, does it?
 
BUT .. some unions will cover their butt if they don"t work hard . Seen guys go pound down beers at lunch and come back to operate overhead cranes . wife complained about them ,,,no luck , they kept job , kept drinking . Wife picked up part of pallet because she was tired of waiting for union guy to get it ,,,grievance filed on her . She grabbed broom to sweep up the mess she was tried of tripping over daily , bam ,nother grievance on her . So glad she got out of that place . Friend of mine,,union negotiator for IBEW. He and his family are always in florida , hawaii once twice a year . Union trips . His wife told her brother he needed to get into union management so he could take all these great trips on someone elses dime . that said ,,I know several Union worker that are happy where they are doing what they do .
 
Union workers, of years ago, paid IN BLOOD, for
rights that the American worker takes for granted
today. Like the 8 hour day, five day work week History tells of union people being shot
and MURDERED, when greedy bosses ordered militias
and crooked cops to fire on strikers.
 
Manufacturing has been globalized in this country. I expect it to shrink further for quite a few years. A lot of nonunion jobs have left also.
 
I agree 100% Spook. I"ve worked in a non union factory now for 31 years that has been sold two times and the last buyer eliminated our pension plan when a lot of us had over 25 years of seniority. We got screwed. Pension plan eliminated. Now there are a lot of worn out, bitter people trying to pound the concrete every day with no retirement. When you work in a production facility and listen to the extreme noise and breath the nasty chemical filled air for 30 years you"re usually ready to leave. Every joint in your body is pretty much worn out along with your brain. All these companies are doing is passing the retirement buck to the US Government in the form of massive amount of people filing for disability instead of retiring with dignity with a good pension plan. Most of the houses I pass on the way to work are older people at home enjoying a decent retirement around here. They are all retired teachers, state workers, county workers, government workers, GM, Ford, Motor Wheel, Federal Moguel, Melling Forging, Lear, Alma Products, Saylor Beal etc. These people all had defined pension plans because of a union and they all retire with dignity. I have never been a big union person because I never thought they were that important but in hindsight I can see that they were and are very important. A 401K is the biggest retirement lie ever brought down on the american people. Does anybody even know anybody that has ever retired using one??!!I don"t.
 
What a load of crap -- union"s have always been straight pinko operations that used the lazy and stupid to feather the union hierarchies nests, the workers paid in lost jobs and opportunities for their children and grandchildren.
 
(quoted from post at 07:28:33 04/15/14) Union workers, of years ago, paid IN BLOOD, for
rights that the American worker takes for granted
today. Like the 8 hour day, five day work week History tells of union people being shot
and MURDERED, when greedy bosses ordered militias
and crooked cops to fire on strikers.
Click to expand...

Not one current card-carrying union member has shed a single drop of blood for workers' rights. Why do we owe them for something that happened 100 years ago, done by someone that they probably aren't even remotely related to?

Many unions don't exist to protect the worker anymore. They started out that way, but when the need to protect the worker went away, they didn't.
 
I've been working around unions (mostly UAW) for over 30 yrs. Companies produce a product "in spite of the union" not "because of it". Most auto plants have a "grievance king", a guy who will file a grievance (like one poster said) for picking up a candy wrapper from the floor (that's a sweeper's job). These people can spot a "contract violation" a mile away. And what happens? Grievances are routinely settled for a few hours pay to the person filing the grievance. Nothing changes. They are a nuisance to the company and a cost built into the manufacture of their product. There are rooms full of committeemen playing solitaire and Union "safety reps" which all add to the cost which every one of us who buys a Union made product pay for.

Sure they served a purpose at one point in time but there is a reason the UAW went from over a million members down to a few hundred thousand and no major automaker will build a NEW plant in Michigan (a UAW stronghold).

Every union member I know has always gloated about how much they make over non-union workers, how little they work, how much they hate their employer, how they know more about management than their bosses, how many days until retirement, how they "own" those jobs, etc., etc.
 
You better take a refresher course on worker-history in the USA. Henry Ford was paying twice the going rate to auto workers in 1914, along with the 8 hour work day. He was paying non-skilled assembly-line workers as much as union brick-layers, carpenters, and plumbers. He did that with a 40 hour work week with NO union input. Ford's productivity went up by 40% and the price of his Model T cars was cut in half. Had some extorting union been involved - productivity would of gone down and the price of the cars would of gone up.
 
Unions train there people ....electricians plumbers carpenters
mechanics we are paid good wages we have retirement plans
that we pay into I've worked on both sides ...had one S.O. B. of a
boss that wasn't a union shop threatened workers on a regular
basis I had no one to go to with my situation....that isn't
tolerated in a union company
 
That sounds more like a management problem than a union problem... Drunk on job = FIRED, for just cause in any environment, union or otherwise. Junk/debris/garbage around = unsafe workplace = reprimand or termination on continued reprimands... Again, a management problem, not a union problem. I know union members who are just as likely to see the slackers gone as some are to defend them...

Rod
 
I think it's you who needs to relearn some history... While what you say was true of Ford, it wasn't true of most other employers of the time.
While I've never been a fan of unions I am well enough learned of history to know that the history of organised labor in this area owes it's roots to the UMW and Steelworkers unions... and that goes back to the men being starved to death on the job and shot at when they went on strike. To this day the former coal towns in the area all mark June 11th as a local half day of work/day of remembrance in memory of a man that was shot to death by Pinkertons who were attempting to break a strike in 1925...
Organised labor developed in this are for exceptionally good reason.

Rod
 
And of course the unions never fired a shot or intimindated anyone in the whole process.


You ain't seen greedy until you've dealt with a union.
 
Your numbers are insaine and you are comparing apples to zebras I worked 7 years non union and changed over to a union as a carpenter I see more training safty and better prodution on the job site now than i did in my first 7 years
 
If this is true and the guy was drunk on the job he should be fired no qustions asked snd that was the case foe a former forman of mine they found a bottle of vodca in his compnay truck he took a cab home and never came back this was on a union job!
 
(quoted from post at 07:28:33 04/15/14) Union workers, of years ago, paid IN BLOOD, for
rights that the American worker takes for granted
today. Like the 8 hour day, five day work week History tells of union people being shot
and MURDERED, when greedy bosses ordered militias
and crooked cops to fire on strikers.
Click to expand...


Actually it was the federal government who passed the 40 hour week, and worker safety laws. They passed the 40 work week during the depression trying to create more jobs. Ford did it on his own. So the unions are not responsible for much and the current union guys may have drawn blood on people crossing a picket line. Doubt any of them have shed blood for "workers" rights.

Rick
 
Interesting that more than 1/2 the companies that davpal mentioned are closed, broke, offshore, reorganized or about 25%
the size they were in their heyday. I've worked in management in a county government, municipal union workers are a waste
of air. They don't obey their own contact, the contract only agrees they'll be there for 40 hours a week, if you actually
want them to do anything you'll have to negotiate how much overtime you'll pay. If you take a basic college law class
you'll learn their ore two parts of a contract performance (an agreement to do something) and consideration (how much pay
& benefits will be given for the performance). By this definition Union Agreements with binding arbitration are not
contracts, if the Union employee doesn't like something in the contract they can grieve it when ever they're required to
perform, it goes through the steps, if the Union wins the contract is in effect modified or amended without both sides
coming to an agreement, if the union looses they pay 1/2 the arbitration fee (employer pays the other 1/2), then proceed
to grieve the same item withing weeks, going through the process over and over until the employer realizes the
arbitration fees are costing more than the union demands. Abuses could be curbed by making the binding arbitration
process a looser pay all and allowing either side to escalate a grievance to a breach of contract level, meaning if the
union looses the contract becomes null and void and the employees would be prohibited from bargaining or re-organizing
for the duration of the contract, if the employer looses they would have to pay damages to the union members. Unions
won't allow this because it holds people accountable for their actions and takes away a lot of their power.

After external_link was elected and he started some of his programs some of the unions started to realize he didn't have their
best interests in his programs and that their precious Union sold them out. It was particularly interesting living in
Wisconsin when Scott Walker became governor, of course the unions hated him and the assault rhetoric started even before
he took office. One of Walker's first acts was to severely limit municipal/public employee's collective bargaining
rights. The unions in effect declared war upon him, all Democratic state senators hid in Illinois to prevent the
legislature from going into session. Walker prevailed, as pay back the unions (nnalert) blocked a mine in Northern
Wisconsin, preventing 80-100 union jobs from being established. After that some of the private sector unions announced
they didn't care much for or recognize public sector unions and their strikes or jobs.
 
I wasn"t going to comment on this topic But you are so full of BS. I work for the city where I live we have not gotten a raise for four years our contract expired in 2012 and we work, it takes a lot to keep a city going no different then running your own household. I"ve worked both union and non union you have your lazy people on both sides.I pay for health insurance and I pay for my pension and I pay taxes.
 
I have been fervently anti-union all my life...BUT.

Today in America we have the lowest rate of union membership in the last 50 years. and we also have the highest rates of unemplyment, poverty, drug usage etc. Middle class wages are falling year after year.

The anti-union factions in our nation won the battle, but as I look back, they did it by shipping solid jobs over seas and turning this into a nation with fewer well paid workers to buy the stuff we make and less money to fuel our economy.

Maybe there was a lot of good built into a system where workers had the money to own homes, buy cars and live well.
 
(quoted from post at 19:14:12 04/15/14) I have been fervently anti-union all my life...BUT.

Today in America we have the lowest rate of union membership in the last 50 years. and we also have the highest rates of unemplyment, poverty, drug usage etc. Middle class wages are falling year after year.

The anti-union factions in our nation won the battle, but as I look back, they did it by shipping solid jobs over seas and turning this into a nation with fewer well paid workers to buy the stuff we make and less money to fuel our economy.

Maybe there was a lot of good built into a system where workers had the money to own homes, buy cars and live well.
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Most of those jobs that moved overseas didn't go because of unions. They went because of the consumer. After the Carter Reagan recession people were tire of doing without. So they demanded cheap products. With US wages plus having to meet OSHA and EPA regs the only way to keep the consumer happy was to move those jobs out of the US. In other words, some of the workers did it to themselves.

I know the iron miners union messed them out of a bunch of jobs. When it got cheaper to import steel from Japan in the 70's and 80's than to buy steel made here they were done. And by and large it was the steel workers and iron miners who drove that price up so high. Now it didn't help that the steel mills had not really made any improvements sense WWII which could have made production cheaper. But add it all together and you have a bunch of high paying jobs that are gone.

I know CaseIH in Fargo starts people with no education past high school at a pretty good wage. Sometimes doing something simple like counting welds or putting a couple of bolts in. That's because of the union. But how much does that add to the cost of a tractor? I know on cars that before the melt down that between union wages and retirees pay and bennies that about 67% of the cost of a car was just for that. That was with 37% spent on current employees. When the car companies signed the retirement bennies in the average worker die within 5-7 years. Now they are living much longer than that.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 07:28:33 04/15/14) Union workers, of years ago, paid IN BLOOD, for
rights that the American worker takes for granted
today. Like the 8 hour day, five day work week History tells of union people being shot
and MURDERED, when greedy bosses ordered militias
and crooked cops to fire on strikers.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and in 2012 SEIU UNION WORKERS beat up Tea Party members at meetings and public events. I guess the blood these UNION WORKERS spilled is okay now because of bad things that happened 75 years ago? Now it's okay that unions are often involved with organized crime? Now it's okay that you often have to bribe a union official to get a union card? Really?

Google "SEIU thugs" and you can find the videos.
 
(quoted from post at 10:38:09 04/15/14) You better take a refresher course on worker-history in the USA. Henry Ford was paying twice the going rate to auto workers in 1914, along with the 8 hour work day. He was paying non-skilled assembly-line workers as much as union brick-layers, carpenters, and plumbers. He did that with a 40 hour work week with NO union input. Ford's productivity went up by 40% and the price of his Model T cars was cut in half. Had some extorting union been involved - productivity would of gone down and the price of the cars would of gone up.
Click to expand...

You have to look at the other side of that example too. The reason Ford was paying them like that was because he couldn't get anyone to stand in one spot doing piecework for the wages he was paying. Productivity went up when he paid them more. They would sacrifice their boredom for the money. You also have to remember that with the job came Fords micro-managing and social engineering of your life, your family, your habits. And then there's the "other" other side where Ford was using thugs to beat union organizers and union sympathizers.

Ford wasn't not the altruistic saint that he's painted to be.
 
Unions started as a good idea to protect workers, and then like all human things, it got too big and corrupt.

When unions disappear here as is coming, and their 'threat' is gone,
Business leaders will continue to pay well and have good working conditions, right? because they are nice guys, right? :roll:

workers in other countries that have our work now, in sweatshops
will, like all humans, eventually fight against the lash,
and band together to protect themselves.

Then with no unions here, pay will be slashed and the work will come back here.

with unbearable working conditions, we will again fight to protect ourselves.

round and round, history keeps rolling along
 
I'm UNION! I'm in a public sector union. I don't get union breaks, I don't have collective bargaining and I cannot strike; BUT I have the heart and lung bill, I have the firefighters bill of rights and I have the peace of mind that if I die whether on duty or not my family will get half of my life insurance within 24 hours of my death handed to them.

In my profession we break balls so much that if you're slacking off you have to deal with your union brothers which is 100x worse than dealing with union bosses or management.


I write letters to the editor and Monday night I addressed council. I LIFT A FINGER FOR WORKERS! Mkirsch I usually respect your posts very much, but you're off the mark on this one.

As far as the pinko comment somebody made, I marched my "pinko" hide to Delegate Alfonso Lopez's office in The Virginia General Assembly this year, whipped out my union card and got a meeting with him. I took him to task because he introduced a magazine ban bill and he is supported by the AFL-CIO as well as firefighter organizations. I've already organized a group of UNION firefighters to go to the general assembly next year to remind our so-called union friendly lawmakers that WE ARE GUN OWNERS and we don't appreciate them taking our money and introducing that kind of legislation.

Union protection is retirement protection. Protected labor speech started by unions has bled over to the private sector.
 
The consumer can only buy what the nation allows to be imported. Take your brain outside the USA and you will find that most of our "good buddy" trading partners, have protective walls against American products.

The consumer can only drive the market if the governemt allows it. Just a very few examples.

USA rice to Japan...nope 776% tariff
USA cars to Korea....nope 75% tariff
USA goods to China...nope currency manipulation and import barriers.

Open trade borders was the least confrontaional way to bring down the big unions and it worked.
Not much way to use the tactic for teachers or govt.employees.

Consumers will always buy the cheapest....FACT...even the most fervent anti-immigrant conservatives hire the illegals to fix the roof, pave the driveway and trim his trees. Money talks much louder than principles.

Bet 50% of the thumpers would buy stolen property if the price was right....were it not for the threat of prosecution and public scorn.
 
Except, you completely ignored the fact that someone in the USA is making extremely large amounts of money importing cheap goods from overseas.

They don't care how other countries treat our products, as long as they're raking it in.

Supreme Court says money = speech, and these importers speak LOUDLY to our politicians to keep trade borders open and tariffs low. There is simply too much money to be made, and making a few "campaign contributions" is a small price to pay.

They don't give a hoot about the common man or what happens to him. All they care about is getting as much money as they can as quickly as they can.

If it all comes crashing down and dries one day, it doesn't matter! They're filthy rich, and they can buy whatever they need no matter the cost.

Everybody is after the big quick score these days. Nobody wants to build a sustainable business.
 
(quoted from post at 10:51:06 04/16/14) Except, you completely ignored the fact that someone in the USA is making extremely large amounts of money importing cheap goods from overseas.

They don't care how other countries treat our products, as long as they're raking it in.

Supreme Court says money = speech, and these importers speak LOUDLY to our politicians to keep trade borders open and tariffs low. There is simply too much money to be made, and making a few "campaign contributions" is a small price to pay.

They don't give a hoot about the common man or what happens to him. All they care about is getting as much money as they can as quickly as they can.

If it all comes crashing down and dries one day, it doesn't matter! They're filthy rich, and they can buy whatever they need no matter the cost.

Everybody is after the big quick score these days. Nobody wants to build a sustainable business.
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I can't answer to all your post, but I do agree that money= speech. A corporation is nothing but a group of people. If you limit a corps. ability to speak, what's the difference between that and limiting NRA, AARP, AAA, Marine Corps League, MADD, Farm Bureau or any other group? If you're going to say ADM, GE or Walmart can't make contributions, then you have to say no other group can make contributions, simple as that. In the end there's no real difference between 1 corp giving some low life Senator $500K and 1,000 individuals all asking for the same thing giving $50.00 each. Use what ever figure you want, it's all the same. The only difference that most individuals would rather sit around on the couch complaining than pony up the $10 or $20 or $50 and trying to make a difference. Most of them won't even get out and vote! The AARP is the nations most powerful lobbying organization for 2 simple reasons- they have members that are active and will make the calls and send in the money and because the members VOTE! If all Americas gun owners would get on board with NRA, for example, they'd win every time. But they won't and they don't. It's an old story.
 
I see a lot of jealous people on here that wish they had a union job. These bitter individuals are saying "sour grapes" about what is beyond their reach.
Did any of the non union bosses and businesses ever thank you for increasing their profits with your lower labour costs? I didn't think so.
How is it that union haters turn a blind eye to abuses in non union businesses. Yet they shout from the roof tops abuses in union businesses?
If it wasn't for unions there would not be a middle class, anywhere.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:11 04/16/14) I see a lot of jealous people on here that wish they had a union job. These bitter individuals are saying "sour grapes" about what is beyond their reach.
Did any of the non union bosses and businesses ever thank you for increasing their profits with your lower labour costs? I didn't think so.
How is it that union haters turn a blind eye to abuses in non union businesses. Yet they shout from the roof tops abuses in union businesses?
If it wasn't for unions there would not be a middle class, anywhere.
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I was union worker for 23 years, not by choice either. If you had the job, you belonged to the union. Ours was corrupt when I got on. Some new blood took over and in 5 years they were corrupt. Unions can serve a good purpose, but they also become corrupt very easily.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:11 04/16/14) I see a lot of jealous people on here that wish they had a union job. These bitter individuals are saying "sour grapes" about what is beyond their reach.
Did any of the non union bosses and businesses ever thank you for increasing their profits with your lower labour costs? I didn't think so.
How is it that union haters turn a blind eye to abuses in non union businesses. Yet they shout from the roof tops abuses in union businesses?
If it wasn't for unions there would not be a middle class, anywhere.
Click to expand...

Sure a lot of people wish they had a union job. You'd be a fool to turn down (a lot) more money for the same work, a guaranteed job, and protection from your screwups.

Pro-union guys operate under the assumption that companies are just rolling in money behind closed doors, and can afford to pay any ransom that the union demands. This ain't the 1950's. Many/most companies are rolling in DEBT, and are days, even hours from bankruptcy if one little piece of the puzzle falls out of place.

Case in point, Hostess/Wonder. The unions demanded themselves right out of their own jobs because they insisted that the Hostess/Wonder management had all this money to throw at its workers.

I would care to wager that more often than not, the lower wages paid to non-union help keeps more companies merely afloat, than increases their profits.

Also, how long do unions get a "free pass" for their greed and corruption for something they did 100 years ago?
 
Be careful what you ask for Bret. I think that if all the people that are feed up with the lawlessness and senseless killing in our cities would band together, and get really organized, they would far outnumber the NRA. Forunately for gun owners the opposition is no where near as one-issue focussed as the NRA.
 
(quoted from post at 19:38:32 04/14/14) What a bunch of garbage union or not some people work hard
and some do not the union has nothing to do with it
Click to expand...

AMEN to that! 8)
 
So you pro union guys are ready and willing to pay 60K for a truck? Of 40K for a car? Just to support union wages? Want to block trade with other nations so that a cheap Tee shirt cost 20 bucks? Sorry, I'm not.

Just how many union worker risk their money, their homes, their future to build a company? That's why the stock market can make you or break you. It's a risk. Those unwilling to take any risk are called workers. They will live an die paycheck to paycheck in most cases. Nothing wrong with that. Business owners may make money of loose it all. Many have died without a dime. Same with investors.

Here is the funny part. How many of you have 401K plans? You run companies like Hostess out of business and you have Hostess stock as part of your 401K........ how many had Chrysler stock before the melt down as part of their 401K.

Rick
 
I don't think it's a matter of giving the unions a free pass for what happened 100 years ago... but at the same time, if you look at what happened 100 years ago from a balanced perspective.... it's pretty easy to understand why unions are so militant and how that culture is indoctrinated into the present day membership on down through the years. It's also fairly self evident in reading some of the responses in this thread that the attitude of management from 100 years ago hasn't changed a whole hell of a lot in some corners either. I get the impression that there's some here that would starve out and shoot union members today if they could get away with it they way they did then... The existence of one keeps the other alive and well.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 17:39:08 04/17/14) So you pro union guys are ready and willing to pay 60K for a truck? Of 40K for a car? Just to support union wages? Want to block trade with other nations so that a cheap Tee shirt cost 20 bucks? Sorry, I'm not.

Just how many union worker risk their money, their homes, their future to build a company? That's why the stock market can make you or break you. It's a risk. Those unwilling to take any risk are called workers. They will live an die paycheck to paycheck in most cases. Nothing wrong with that. Business owners may make money of loose it all. Many have died without a dime. Same with investors.

Here is the funny part. How many of you have 401K plans? You run companies like Hostess out of business and you have Hostess stock as part of your 401K........ how many had Chrysler stock before the melt down as part of their 401K.

Rick
Click to expand...

If you are making enough money with your 401k or some other 'investor' oriented scheme to support yourself throughout your retirement - GOOD on you! However, while some union retirement plans are ridiculously funded, I ask: Why did the corporation's negotiators cave-in and agree to the union demands in the first place? Times must have been pretty good for them, then. The unions can only get what the companies agree to! The Big 3 automakers could not see the writing on the wall and so missed their opportunity to cash in on the changing American market as the Japanese did - Is that the unions fault? Go ahead on in your way and Good Luck to you :!:
 
(quoted from post at 17:37:53 04/15/14) A 401K is the biggest retirement lie ever brought down on the american people. Does anybody even know anybody that has ever retired using one??!!I don"t.
Click to expand...

Yes, about everyone that has retired from my company and that includes my MIL. Not sure where you get your information but it's a good vehicle for folks to build something for themselves for retirement. With company match up to 6% of salary for our plan it's a no brainer to put something away in it. I did work with a guy that shunned the plan for years as he thought he was doing better with bank CDs... safe, good returns... until interest rates kept dropping and he realized how foolish he had been and how much money he has forgone by not being in at least at a minimum level in the plan and having some equities and not just money market investments. Yea, it goes up and down but I can show where over time it is nothing but up. We still have a pension plan (a cash balance plan) and there might be some SS I can draw (if the politicians don't find a way to steal that too). In total it's not a huge amount of money but with the wife doing the same thing we should have a comfortable retirement. My MIL is still buying campers, motor homes and new cars, and about anything she wants, from her 401(k) that she built up while working here.

So, I reject what you say about the 401(k) being a lie. Maybe there are better vehicles but they aren't a bad thing... bet you wish you had some tucked back about now in a 401(k)?
 
(quoted from post at 20:36:07 04/15/14) Your numbers are insaine and you are comparing apples to zebras I worked 7 years non union and changed over to a union as a carpenter I see more training safty and better prodution on the job site now than i did in my first 7 years
Click to expand...

I don't disagree as I worked in a union shop (Painters and Allied Trades) but there is also less work. We had a good apprentice program for paper hangers and painters, my FIL taught in that program for many years. Most of our guys worked side jobs too doing non-union housing and apartment jobs. Was a good fall back for them when the union jobs got scarce, which was often. Me, I went to school at night, got a degree and got out of it.
 
Direct correlation, crime rates falling, concelled carry rising, OR..... oil prices rising, USA energy production rising, winter temperatures falling, snow fall rising, heroin usage rising, gay marriage rising.....which one do you think is the cause....if any? Statistical analyis is complex and not easily understood.

Lots of people want to use one or two facts to prove their point.
 
Actually dumb@ss I've been dumping 10% of my gross income into a 401K for 31 years along with a company match into mutual funds and probably have more in there than your whole family does but that still doesn't equal a defined pension plan and it never will. I would trade my hefty 401k for a pension and health insurance today if it were offered. I get my information from yahoo finance and according to them about 50% of the working population have less than $1000 in a 401k and 66% of them have less than $25,000. Start pulling about $75,000 a year out of your 401K for your health insurance and living expenses and see how many years you go out and buy motorhomes and take vacations. I notice your counting on your wife for retirement money also. Nice. I'm sure if I want to haul around parts in a factory until I'm 65 and croak 3 years later everything will work out ok. Or I could have just went to GM and worked for a union and RETIRED with a pension and health insurance at 48 years old because of a UNION that fought for those benefits.
 
(quoted from post at 10:45:16 04/17/14) Be careful what you ask for Bret. I think that if all the people that are feed up with the lawlessness and senseless killing in our cities would band together, and get really organized, they would far outnumber the NRA. Forunately for gun owners the opposition is no where near as one-issue focussed as the NRA.
Click to expand...

You seem to make the assumption they'd all be anti-gun rather than anti- criminal. Gun control is not in any way, shape or form crime control. At any rate, my point is that most people aren't at all active regarding much of anything and that there's no real difference between a big corp and a big special interest group.
 
Not all union members are the same. Some make a lot of money others do not. I work for a company that continues to try to break the union every year is another round of abuse. Wages are not any better than a non union shop because every contract the company claims poor and refuses to give a decent raise while they continue to increase the employee cost of health insurance. This it is true they are losing money why do they continue to do business with the customer who upper management has completely screwed that contract up too. Most companies who go bankrupt that have union labor will always blame the union but how many times can you ask someone to give concessions while the cost of living continues to climb? What never is revealed is what the management has done in the last 5-10 or 15 yrs ago the latest started the snowball to losing money poor direction from management then instead of correcting or taking blame they ask the workers to do the same with less or more for less. The company I work for there is many ways to improve efficiency and increase profits with simple obvious changes to operations. All have been brought up to management and nothing has been done because of the lack of trust for the union worker bringing it up. There is no reason for most workers to offer something that could lead to them losing a decent job but management thinks we are trying to pull the wool over there eyes. So those of you blaming the unions for wisconsin's shortfalls should be blaming the politicians who waste tax payers money on stupid programs that help their supporters and no one else. Hostesses problem stemed from management also failure to keep up with the changing market. Yellow and roadways decline is also management's fault in leadership. The company I work for will fail for tripping over dollars to save pennies mentality they have and the incompetence in management roles as in wasting drivers dot hours waiting for a load because the dispatcher is too lazy to print bills or getting hung up on getting a different load dispatched that won't be loaded for hours when there is freight loaded and ready go be hauled so do some research before bashing unions because all you come off as is a jealous person wishing you had their benefits. Fight for your own not against theirs this country is headed to 2 classes of people the rich and the working poor because of politicians and greed of corporations allowing for the export of jobs and factories. You can say all you want about costs of products made here but if everyone made a living wage and wages kept up the ceo compensation over the last 15 yrs it wouldn't be that big of a swing
 
(quoted from post at 07:48:01 04/18/14)
(quoted from post at 17:39:08 04/17/14) So you pro union guys are ready and willing to pay 60K for a truck? Of 40K for a car? Just to support union wages? Want to block trade with other nations so that a cheap Tee shirt cost 20 bucks? Sorry, I'm not.

Just how many union worker risk their money, their homes, their future to build a company? That's why the stock market can make you or break you. It's a risk. Those unwilling to take any risk are called workers. They will live an die paycheck to paycheck in most cases. Nothing wrong with that. Business owners may make money of loose it all. Many have died without a dime. Same with investors.

Here is the funny part. How many of you have 401K plans? You run companies like Hostess out of business and you have Hostess stock as part of your 401K........ how many had Chrysler stock before the melt down as part of their 401K.

Rick
Click to expand...

If you are making enough money with your 401k or some other 'investor' oriented scheme to support yourself throughout your retirement - GOOD on you! However, while some union retirement plans are ridiculously funded, I ask: Why did the corporation's negotiators cave-in and agree to the union demands in the first place? Times must have been pretty good for them, then. The unions can only get what the companies agree to! The Big 3 automakers could not see the writing on the wall and so missed their opportunity to cash in on the changing American market as the Japanese did - Is that the unions fault? Go ahead on in your way and Good Luck to you :!:
Click to expand...

LOL, that's my point. 401K plans are nothing to brag about. But if your plan includes a company that can be taken down like Hostess was then the union screwed you. Plain and simple.

They caved in and gave those generous retirement plans when the average worker retired and 65 and was dead by 70. Now it's killing them with people living much longer. And of course the unions are not going to let the companies reduce those retirement plans today. They figured in the 60s that current workers contributions would fund it but today that's not true and the cost is passed onto the consumer.

Rick
 
Don't forget that there is a gov't program, (isn't there ALWAYS a gov't program?!), that compensates people whose retirement was lost if a company shut down. I forget what it's called but it was on the news a few years back when one of the big airlines defaulted. Private industry sucking off the public teat I guess...
 
(quoted from post at 06:48:06 04/19/14) Actually dumb@ss I've been dumping 10% of my gross income into a 401K for 31 years along with a company match into mutual funds and probably have more in there than your whole family does but that still doesn't equal a defined pension plan and it never will. I would trade my hefty 401k for a pension and health insurance today if it were offered. I get my information from yahoo finance and according to them about 50% of the working population have less than $1000 in a 401k and 66% of them have less than $25,000. Start pulling about $75,000 a year out of your 401K for your health insurance and living expenses and see how many years you go out and buy motorhomes and take vacations. I notice your counting on your wife for retirement money also. Nice. I'm sure if I want to haul around parts in a factory until I'm 65 and croak 3 years later everything will work out ok. Or I could have just went to GM and worked for a union and RETIRED with a pension and health insurance at 48 years old because of a UNION that fought for those benefits.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you are taking advantage of the 401(k). Still wondering why you are bad mouthing it. Where would you be without it, better or worse.

So I'm a dumbazz?... and you don't even know me! Actually I have a 401(k) and pension (my choice of defined benefit or cash balance, which ever pays out the best) and partially company paid retirement health insurance (it starts out with me paying the normal working employee rate but any increases I pay for, so it will get more and more expensive) and we are not a union company, far from it. Yes, my wife and I are a partnership and we will both benefit from both of us working and saving. Yes, I depend on her and she on me. That's not a bad thing.

You sound angry and maybe a little scared... where you are now is a product of all the decisions you've made in your life. Make bad ones and you end up bad. Sorry for your miserable life, I do hope things get better for you, really.
 
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