OT-Concrete Pad for feeding Cattle

I need a little advice on some improvements we are looking to make on our cattle feeding area.
Currently we are feeding round bales to steers in a “hay saver” style feeder. Feeder is on top of a hill, in the dirt. Getting up the hill to the feeder through all the mud and muck is always an issue.
We are planning to fence off an ally way up the hill that the cattle can’t enter. This will allow us to go up the hill in an area that isn’t all torn up from cattle. We will have a gate at the end of the alley way that leads into the feeding area. I would like to pour a concrete pad on the top of the hill. The pad would be the size of the feeder plus about 10-12 feet on each side of the feeder. This would allow me to scrape the manure from around the feeder. Currently in the dirt/mud it is hard to get traction to scrap, and you get dirt/stones in with the manure which is hard on the manure spreader and puts rocks in the hay fields.
My father is concerned about the durability of the concrete pad. He thinks that over time at the edge of the pad the dirt may get eroded from constant animal traffic, causing a large step, or lip to get up on the pad. This may weaken the pad, causing it to crack or break away. I think if we really want to make the pad solid, we dig a footer all around the outside edge of the pad. With rebar in the footer and mesh in the pad, everything would be solid. We then put some packed stone around the edge of the pad so that there isn’t any erosion around the edge of the pad.
Has anyone done anything similar? Ideas?

You"re right in planning a footer under the edge of the pad. Make it twice as thick as the pad and about 18 inches wide. You"ll always have erosion at the edge of the pad, no matter where the concrete stops.

So you don't think I need a real footer below the frost line? If I do a 5" pad, then do 10" around the edge?

Oh no! Frost line here would be 5 feet! I"d also use all rebar instead of mesh under the feeder, and go beyone 8-10 feet around the feeder. All that rear foot traffic would be near the edge, and they don"t play nice.

Not haveing a footer below frostline sounds like trouble considering how much water will stand next to the concrete.
I move the rings when it becomes muddy around them. With a small herd,a shelter that roof drains on opisite side of cattle entrance might be an option.

Usually put in some gravel to slope away then building thickened edge slab with reinforcing either rebar or heavy mesh sized to make a floating slab out of it.

"Frost wall" with no heat on one side of it is pretty much pointless. It will freeze on both sides and heave the material inside too. Better to spend money on steel in the slab so it won't break up when it heaves.

Mike, talk to NRCS. I know it's a dirty 4-letter word in some circles, but they will design AND pay for a pad for you, especially if you do some or all of the work. Back years ago, I was feeding cows along a fence line in the mud- both hay and silage. I talked to NRCS, and they came out, designed a feeding pad and manure storage area, and I put it in to their specs with a few modifications. I had to borrow the money to do it, and overbuilt what they designed with a 't' wall bunker for the manure. The total pad area is about 100 x 40', has been there for about fifteen years and is still in use. But, the price they pay for the work is far above what you need to build it- especially if you do the work, or most of it. And, they will also pay for upgrades after the life of the original contract, which is about 7 or 10 years. I built a big shed next to it, and push the manure onto that pad and right into the manure pit, then clean it out a couple of times a years. But, the pad and pit cost was about 25 or 30K, and they paid 87 1/2%, I did a good part of the work, and my cost basis was around 18K, and they gave us some 24K to do it, so I got paid about 5 or $6000 for my time and labor. Plus, I have been using it for the past 15 years. So, go down and introduce yourself.

So far, they have put in over $100,000 into facilities for me over the years, and I think it's a great deal- especially with this "Save the Bay" crud they're insisting on. And Pa. is one of the states on the target for some good program funds. If you don't do it, someone else will get the money, and they seem to have more than enough.

So far, they have put that pad and manure pit in for us, 3 spring developments, a 400 foot well, 2000 feet of pipe, 2 4-hole waterers, a couple of heavy use areas, a mile of cross fencing, and a quarter of a mile of perimeter fencing. I'd have probably never been able to afford it if they hadn't been there. We get cost shares from the feds and the state on most of this stuff, and they also pay us to plant covers in the fall and destroy or harvest them, depending on the crop, the next year. If you need to talk about it, call me at four-one oh- 2 one won two.

Yup,thats what I wanted to do. I had them help me with stream crossing and fencing a few year ago. About 20k in work, and it turned out well. Unfortunatly my landlord (Dad) is just flying by the seat of his pants and wont cooperate with anything. I sat down and did the math, and it will be about 2k in stone just for the allyway. Throw in cloth under it, and a concrete pad, and I bet you are knocking at 10k. Dad has the idea of how to do things, but hasnt discussed who is paying for what....nothing like dealing with family.

That can be a real tripping point at times. I have enough room on my pad to turn the spreader around, pull in and load cows at the barn in any weather, and it keeps the cows and feed out of the mud. I actually feed in the barn now (it's 50 x 100) and feed on the pad very little. But the pad keeps me out of the mud, also, and has been well worth it. By the way, there is no foundation- just stone under it and concrete wire in it. I drive the spreader on it to load, and the truck and cattle trailer on it for moving beef. You can see the pit area in the second picture, and the 't' wall was from Keystone Concrete....

Where are you at in MD? Maybe take a sunday drive some nice afternoon and check out what you did. I put in the streamcrossings, and Dad signed off on the project, but he wasn't happy about it. About a year later an environmental group threatened to sue some amish in our area for having cattle in the creek, so I was glad I put them in...

You'll never get away from mud. When they poured my bunker silo,they had half a load of concrete left and asked if I had a place to use it. I told them to pour it outside the gate where the cows went off the concrete. When they got done,the guy in charge said "Well,we just moved your mud hole out about another 12 feet".

Yeah, you are right. BUT better to move the mud hole to where I dont have to go through it all the time to feed...and keep it from washing down into the barn...

55 years ago, my dad got a crane in, removed sand and gravel from river running through farm. We made our concrete feed lot by hand with mixer. Never used re-bar. Not sure it was even invented then. At end of lot, dad made a concrete lip, so we could put spreader under lip. Used blade on tractor to push the crap in to the spreader.

I learned to point tractor in the wind before turning the spreader on. Back then our tractors had no cabs.

Also learned not to step off the lip, especially when spreader was full.
george

Half hour south of York.....

I've been using rock and geotex since 94. Last year I finally gave up on repairing my original pad and added on to it. It had shrunk from 45x100 to less than 20 by 80. But, that was almost 20 years with nothing but adding a load of class I sand every other year.

Built one at the other farm 5 years ago, 400 for fabric, 3200 for rock (230 tons) and a half day of me and the skid loader. It would have taken 84 yards to pour it, with fiber, would have been almost 9000 not counting labor to float and finish it. I've built a total of 4 of these pads for me, and a couple dozen for other people. Only ever got cost share on one of mine. But, its worth it. I was losing from 4 to 10 calves a year to mud. Haven't had a mud related death since 94.

If I was pouring I'd foot it at the perimeter (below frost line), rebar at 18 inch spaces, and then pour it with double fiber, float it,

Concrete is nice, no doubt. I've got several dairies around me, scrap every day for decades. The key I've noticed is the scraper. They all use 1/4 earth mover tires on skid loader frames to push the muck off.

David,
What type stone do you use when building the pad?You rent a roller to pack it? Whats the purpose of adding the sand vs more stone?

Lets see how this photo upload works. I cut out 8-10 inches with skid steer, laid fabric and put down 23's. Since stone specs vary, thats a mix of 2's and 3's. Makes a nice solid base. I've used straight 2's and straight 4's before. Depends on the quarry and what they have but I like 23's best. I'll usually drop a single axle load of 2's and use them to hold the fabric down. Then have the tri axles spread the rest of the 23's. I'll dress down with the skid steer. In the photo we are awaiting rain and then the final application of 100 tons of class I sand.

Then drop a tri axle load of class I sand (limestone sand, coarser than ag lime). Spread and track, spread and track. Once its filled in the cracks in the stone well enough, and I really really really really like it to get a good rain on it. Then I'll top it with more class I. That gives stratification. Some class I comes off when you scrape. It has liming value so no big deal. Thats why I keep adding the class I, replace what comes off in manure management.

A number 2 rock, or even a number 4 is a near leathal projectile coming off the spreader beaters. Definitely hard on cab glass. Since I spread with whats available one never knows. I try really hard to make sure I never disturb the packed stone base.

Mistake with pad 1 that NRCS enlightened me with on the one they cost shared is to put the fabric and coarse stone below grade. Prevents the sides from eroding so badly with equipment.

I didnt rent a roller. A skid steer is so heavy and so concentrated in weight it is more than sufficient. Dont go cheap here, a loader tractor wont get you the job you can get with a s.s. Its worth the rental cost to get one for a weekend or a day if you dont have one to do one of these. FYI, a Cat is worth it with the rubber tracks. I used one on my last pad and definitely makes a better pack, and doesnt want to bunch up fabric when you are pinning it.

Coming from an engineering view, you will always want your pad to have a thickened edge to frostline. We call these floating slabs. It will prevent uplift during freezing and therefore prevent heave cracking. Also, put down a 6" layer of dense grade gravel under the slab. DO NOT POUR DIRECTLY ON DIRT! Realistically, you probably only need a 12" wide thickened area around the perimeter since there are no major loads being applied here. Mesh or rebar would work in the thin part of the slab up to 5" thick. I would lay 3 bars of #6 rebar in the thickened areas 3" from the bottom and put the mesh 2" below the top of concrete pad over the entire pad. Make sure your mesh and bars stop at 2-3" from the concrete edge. If you can, instead of digging straight down around the edge, angle the dirt on the inside at a 45 degree slope. Concrete doesn't like 90 degree turns and gives a weaker spot to crack.

I have been wanting to do the geotextile/compacted gravel feed base design. It is much cheaper than the concrete. Only problem would be cleaning it off.

I got the skidsteer. Buddy has a roller,so we are set there. Did you use woven or non woven cloth? I know from my stream crossings the woven is much tougher, but really wont pass water well.
Would lime work instead of sand? Also, do you stockpile manure, or load right into spreader?

I've done them both ways, I like the felt style a lot better but thats just personal bias. If anything , it is even more impermeable than the cross weave.

I don't see why lime wouldnt work. Just more airborne fines to work in during construction. Most of our ag lime is 30 percent class I. Supposed to break down in 3 to 5 years. Your guess is good as mine on that. I've got it in my picnic area and it seems to melt down about by about 20 percent per year. Main thing is to make sure there is plenty, one rock in the spreader really smarts when it gets your ear where it joins your head.....

I stockpile..... we wont really discuss how long some times . Manure spreading is a job that tends to get put off around here.... Sometimes for years..... sometimes decades...... I finally broke down and bought a decent spreader last year.... My old one would usually break down every 7 to 10 loads. Just now spread out the last of that pile on the 94 pad. It had only every been completely cleaned out once. I do flip a new pile once and stage it after about 6 months to let it cook on down. I like to let it get done heating all the way through before spreading. Seems to cut down on the weeds