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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Re: Organic!

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rrlund

01-14-2014 09:39:03
162.250.26.204



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Talk to Animal down on the Using your tractor and crop talk forum.

While we're on the subject,what the devil does "suatainable" really mean anyway??!!
McDonalds says that by 2016 they will only source beef from "sustainable sources". They say they will work with producers to achieve their goal. So what the ----? Some college boy from a McDonalds corporate office is going to come out here and tell me how to farm? It might be his last stop.

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T in NE

01-16-2014 19:15:18
75.235.150.150



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 09:39:03  
In the way that Mickey crayphole's is using it, it means, in the end, "government controlled".



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farmerwithmutt

01-14-2014 11:18:23
166.181.3.32



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 09:39:03  
Sustainable is basicly like we lived in 50 and 60 if we needed we got it. it means sitting down with a pen i farm that way not strictly organic but close. i penciled out imputs from plow down plus manure i didnt need fertilizer . the guy next door buys ever bit of fertilizer spray etc yield differance 1 bushel. i also remember an old guy telling me how alot of people buy there milk unless good genetics you are going to get so much you can buy fancy equipment get high powered rations but is that sustanable? I had holstiens pushing out over 100 lbs a day on 5 lbs of grain and rotational pasture. they also breed back good and gained weight.
I also smile when i see guys with shiny new lawn mower mowing acres of grass. my lawnmower is a four wheel drive solar powered fermentation vat who weeds feeds and trims the lawn throw a wire up let them have it for a day or two and find anthor chunk. once in a while i might mow but very little.only one accident turned mutt out one night forgot had wire by front door she wouldnt go out that door for a long time .

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JMS/.MN

01-14-2014 14:36:12
209.237.125.241



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 Re: Organic! in reply to farmerwithmutt, 01-14-2014 11:18:23  
No way I"ll believe that line about 100 lbs milk on 5 lbs grain.



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RodInNS

01-14-2014 15:31:03
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Organic! in reply to JMS/.MN, 01-14-2014 14:36:12  
You're not alone.... The odd cow might do it but it's coming off her back to do it. The other half of that equation is that the 100# is about 2.3% fat and 2.1% protein. My observation over the years of pasturing like that was that you could make a lot of volume but you couldn't make much of a cheque without some source of fibre going into them.... We did a lot of pasturing on Italian rye grass... and they'd milk good and sh!t through the eye of a needle... but the components were not in the milk. The same herd on good silage would make 4% + milk.

Rod

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farmerwithmutt

01-14-2014 15:16:18
166.181.3.129



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 Re: Organic! in reply to JMS/.MN, 01-14-2014 14:36:12  
Bucket milkers its not hard to keep track.pasture was very lush alfalfa



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bison

01-14-2014 13:59:01
69.168.144.140



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 Re: Organic! in reply to farmerwithmutt, 01-14-2014 11:18:23  
Nature is organic by definition .

It has sustained itself for a couple billion years just fine.It was not until man started to fart around thinking it could improve upon things with fertilizer and chemicals and monoculture that things started to go wacky.

I raise bison the organic(natural) way(am not certified) have not used chems and fertilizer for 20 years, don't use vaccines or meds and don't use grains for feeding either

The land is healthier now than when i first started.

My bank account improved right along with it to the point it is nowadays always in the plus.

Just saying

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rrlund

01-14-2014 13:28:56
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 Re: Organic! in reply to farmerwithmutt, 01-14-2014 11:18:23  
You seem like an awful nice guy and I sure don't want to start something with you,but what you're talking about is the exact opposite of "sustainable". I've been in the cattle business since I was 15. Everything I grow either gets fed to cattle or ends up under them for bedding. The only way anything leaves the yard is in the stock trailer or the manure spreader. My cattle don't,and never have produced enough manure to fertilize the ground that it takes to feed them. Granted,I don't use as much commercial fertilizer as the cash croppers do,but if I didn't supplement the manure with the commercial fertilizer that I need to use,crop production will drop off,I wouldn't be able to keep as many head,meaning less manure,even lower crop yields,fewer cattle and on and on until all I'd have is empty barns and barren fields of weeds. That's not sustainability.

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oldtanker

01-14-2014 17:23:34
66.228.255.116



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 13:28:56  
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The whole thing most people miss is that with sustainable farming you can use chemical fertilizer as needed. But it also includes putting something back into the soil besides just the chemicals. Most people mistake what it's all about. I know a college professor who taught sustainable farming. That is what he was teaching. He honestly believes that some guys who only put chemical fertilizer in are going to eventually kill their soil. I don't know about that. I do know that he finds it perfectly acceptable to use hybrids, chemical fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides as needed, but not as an end all. He will tell you that you need manure or other things to put back into your soil besides just chemical fertilizer.

Rick

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farmerwithmutt

01-14-2014 13:45:27
166.181.3.250



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 13:28:56  
But that is what i would call sustainable use what you got and buy the extra you need. what i call non sustanable is the large mega farms that basically live off goverment payments. we have one place next to me hundreds of cattle outside they haul feed in and no manure out .then go buy more chemicals get new machinery etc . if it wasnt for govt payments i doubt they would make it thats why i like shows like dr poll .it was to help a mega farmer that the bank tried to sell me out.

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rrlund

01-14-2014 14:21:28
162.250.26.204



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 Re: Organic! in reply to farmerwithmutt, 01-14-2014 13:45:27  
So instead of supplementing the nutrient needs of my own land by buying the fertilizer that I need,I should let my land get run down and pay a price that's profitable to somebody else so they can use fertilizer and grow feed for me? OK. If you think Dr Pol is some "organic","natural"or "sustainable" vet,or that his clients are,I don't even know what to say. That show is filmed right here locally. All I could do is invite you here to see how wrong you are about the way we farm here in mid Michigan.

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randallinMo

01-14-2014 16:21:34
216.74.205.155



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 14:21:28  
I tend to agree with RRlund and Paul on their versions of "sustainability". It makes no difference if you're "organic" or "conventional" in your farming practices, you still need inputs. Period. When the cost of those inputs exceeds the returns, then your method of farming is not "sustainable". I view the recent high grain costs as one of the culprits we "all" have dealt with. Never......Never....have I seen "agribusiness" as opportunistic with their run up in ALL of our input costs. When it "appears" like the farmer will make a good return, UP go his costs. Agribusiness has to make a profit too, but recent actions on their part have been blatant. So, it doesn't matter if you consider yourself "organic" or conventional....both groups will have to deal with being "sustainable". AS for the organic parade, I think most view this as zero inputs resulting in a more "natural" production scheme. I had an old farmer neighbor one time who made the statement, "I'm just going to farm with what God gave me". The appearance of his farm looked like God had not given him much. 'Sad deal really.

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farmerwithmutt

01-14-2014 14:45:03
166.181.3.86



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 14:21:28  
Maybe im misinterpating dr pol i was thinking he did small farms thats what im thinking and thats the guys i like. yes i buy outside feed and fertilizer . But i use as much compost and cover crops as i can most of the guys that i know work that way.



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Paul

01-14-2014 10:54:10
66.60.223.232



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 09:39:03  
I really appreciate the organic producers, and the farmers market type of operations.

But, yes, I have great difficulty with that 'sustainable' type of label.

Really looking at the issue, if you haul any sort of food or feed off an acre of land, you need to haul the same or a bit more nutrients back onto that acre.

It does not matter if it is manure, sea kelp, fish guts, rock phosphate, nitrogen made from natural gas, commercial fertilizer pellets, waste water sludge, idle the land a year to grow a legume you do not harvest, .......

In some way, somehow, you need to replace what was hauled away.

So both organic and conventional farming in the exact same boat - one is not different from the other in that respect.

So these sorts of claims make no sense to me.

Farming in general, either type, Is either sustainable or not. Can't have them both ways!

Paul

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oldtanker

01-14-2014 10:21:23
66.228.255.116



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 09:39:03  
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Sustainable means just that. You have to be able to sustain over a long period of time a farming operation. So you put things back into the soil, rotate crops, use manure and compost to sustain the soil long term. Some people mistake it for no chemicals but that isn't true. It's limited application as needed so you don't wind up with resistant weeds. If you weed out the wild idea folks and look at what they are preaching about sustainability some of it makes a good deal of sense. They question how long you can maintain a piece of ground only using chemicals and not putting anything else back into the soil. Do some research. So is going to come across as the next hippy commune type thing and some will make sense.

Rick

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rrlund

01-14-2014 11:43:50
162.250.26.204



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 Re: Organic! in reply to oldtanker, 01-14-2014 10:21:23  
Don't we all do that?!

Good God! I guess McDonalds just had to come up with some buzz word gimmick to appease the stupid brain dead fad followers.



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oldtanker

01-14-2014 12:31:17
66.228.255.116



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 11:43:50  
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Actually there is a lot of "sustainable" beef out there. It's more or less pasture raised animals. No restriction on grain inputs but the cows can roam and graze too. I know a lot of guys in our area that raise beef that way. Very few feed lots in our area and a lot of land that's only good for pasture. Now a lot of sustainable farmers do rotational grazing to try to keep their pastures in better shape.

As far as the "fad followers" are concerned, there are more and more each day as people become more educated as to what they are stuffing into their mouths.

I'm way out in west MN. I raise pastured pigs every year that I buy as 40-50 pound feeders. I DO NOT advertise. This is mostly for meat for the family. I have people from as far away as the Twin Cities contacting me about pigs. I didn't sell any this past year because of corn prices. Just didn't pencil out. Now if I have people contacting me like out here in the middle of nowhere it's more than just a fad. This past spring I had at least 20 different people wanting to know if I was going to be selling any.

Colin from the N forum sells organic. He's a little closer to the cities than I am but he has customers buying produce and chickens from the cities. Now if folks from the Twin Cities are coming out this far to buy pasture raised animals and organic produce it's more than just a fad. I'm still a little shocked by it. I had your attitude about it several years ago. I'm not organic and will not be. But I am trying to sustain my land for following generations.

Rick

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Paul

01-14-2014 14:12:26
66.60.223.232



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 Re: Organic! in reply to oldtanker, 01-14-2014 12:31:17  
I get the farm fresh, or farm market, or grass fed, or what have you, type of marketing. It ebbs and flows in popularity, and I like it.

But I don't see how it is different as far as 'sustainable' one way or the other?

I'm certainly not against it. Just don't get how one way of farming is more sustainable than the other somehow.

Its like advertising some meat or gain as 'chemical free'. Well. Everything is made of chemicals, including the most purest organic pork...... It seems to be some sort of false advertising.

Again, most certainly not opposed to it, its the cool hands on segment of farming, should be more of it!

But - then we get into these buzz words of sustainable or chemical free, and it kinda makes a person mad, when it is clearly such false advertising. Unfortunately.

If you haul a pig to town, you need to either haul that same amount of nutrient back to your farm, or you need to rob your soil of the nutrients you hauled away.

Just like any conventional farmer. Got to be one way or another.

Nothing especially sustainable one way over the other? If you need to haul in manure to keep your farm in good shape, where does that manure come from? You are robbing someone. If you use fish broth or kelp, it has to come from somewhere - you take away from someone else. That is no more sustainable than hauling in commercial fertilizer to keep your soil healthy and well for decades to come......

Again, I'm for what it is you are doing. Not against te market farms at all, wish there were more!

Just don't care for the false advertising is all.

Paul

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rrlund

01-14-2014 12:47:08
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 Re: Organic! in reply to oldtanker, 01-14-2014 12:31:17  
I think you're confusing "sustainable" and grass fed. I pasture my cow/calf herd too,but I creep feed grain to the calves then put them on silage and grain to finish them after I wean them at 5-600 pounds. Again,if it's grass fed that Ronald McDonald wants,good luck and they'd better take a look at what happened to Coca Cola when they changed their formula.



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rockyridgefarm

01-14-2014 13:04:57
69.131.201.178



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 12:47:08  
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Sustainable has become a useless word when it comes to food, just like "natural" and "fat free". There's no teeth behind it. My definition of sustainable is gonna be different than your definition.

Perhaps one person's version is to stick 10,000 head in dry lots in Kansas, keep them on an antibiotic-heavy all-corn & milo ration, slaughter them as fast as you can administer the pneumatic kill pin, and sell the beef cheap. Perhaps my version is to put that animal on grass (which it evolved to eat), not use any antibiotics, have the animal processed in a local, small abattoir, and sell the meat within 100 miles of where it was raised and butchered for more money. Perhaps another's version is to only eat wild game that they shot and processed themselves. Any of these can be justified as "sustainable".

McDonalds isn't gonna go grassfed unless they can find a way to still make a buck per burger AND I doubt they're gonna double the price of the burger.

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Formenwhogrow

01-14-2014 11:24:08
72.95.217.34



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 Re: Organic! in reply to oldtanker, 01-14-2014 10:21:23  
Well put old tanker.



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JMS/.MN

01-14-2014 09:56:26
209.237.125.241



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 Re: Organic! in reply to rrlund, 01-14-2014 09:39:03  
That"s like "affordable housing". Shouldn"t any housing be affordable, otherwise don"t buy it.



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