Question for RRLund/JDSeller

A older friend of mine has decided that he's tired
of fooling with cattle, and approached me about
buying out his cattle, and renting his farm. He
currently has a total of 110 head. I know there is
no way I can run a 110 cows, work full time for
the RR, and still do my small row crop thing, but
Im thinking 30 head would be do-able/profitable?
For what it would cost to get into the hay
equipment business, I think I would be better off
to buy hay for the first couple of year's or until
I KNOW that I like the cattle business? I should
also mention that I have ZERO cattle experience! I
can tell a cow from a bull, but that's about it. I
have no problem driving out to feed them everyday
in the winter, but can you let them go a couple of
days at a time in the summer? I picked the number
thirty, because I don't see the point in driving
out every day just to feed five, but is thirty to
many for a rookie? I would really appreciate your
guys thought's on this(and I'm fine with a "your
clinically retarded" if that's the way you see it)
I'm just eager to get into the cattle business,
and this seems like a prime opportunity.

Here's from an eavesdropper... sounds like you're talking beef cattle which isn't all "cows", would also be steers (castrated bulls). From my perspective I don't see where there'd be that much difference taking care of 110 head of beef as compared to 30. (now I wonder what the real guys' will say)

If you want to do it,try it is all I can say. The older I get,the less passion I have for it,but I'll probably keep it up for a while. Being there at calving time might be your biggest problem. I told a neighbor one time that I had to get home,I had a cow about to calve. He told me not to worry about it,they've been doing it forever,but things still go wrong,VERY wrong.

I can tell you with 30 head,you'll probably go through anywhere from 2 round bales a day to 3 every other day. Figure on loosing a few calves a year,maybe an open cow or two then figure the value of the calves vs the cost of the feed.

As far as not checking them every day,I don't know what to tell you. I very seldom have any out,but I got woken up this morning by somebody pounding on the door telling me one was out. They do things like that on their own schedule,not yours.

I suppose what you want to do is doable,but don't plan on sleeping through the night every night. There'll be times when you'll wish you'd never heard the word cow.

I was thinking the exact thing that gtractorfan was thinking. If you are going to do 30, why not 100. Really not much difference. Some of the extra work will be very minimal with the extra 70. Calving will probably take about the same amount of time. Chores will take only a little extra time to put out a couple more bales. Still need to check the water as much for 30 head as you do for 100. Having cows can cut into "free time". They require a certain amount of care year round. For us, winter time is an everyday chore, summer takes less time, but we need to put up hay for the winter feeding. Cows take a lot of work. As much as I enjoy having them, I am looking forward to the day when I don't "need" them anymore.

If you have zero experience with cattle I'd say you'll probably fail miserably. Lot more to it then just throwing them a bale of hay and a bucket full of feed every day. If you can't, or don't want to grow your own feed, that eats up any profit real fast.

I don't think there is an easy answer for these questions. As far as daily chores there really isn't much difference between 30 & 110. BUT when it comes to working them(shots, worming, tags & castrating) that will take a lot more time. Depending on your source of water you might get away with not checking every day. BUT, as was said before, they will tear things up at the most inconvenient time. If you keep your bulls out to time your calving season to one month or two months that will help.
You will need a low cost, high quality(like that exists) source for hay & feed. In short you can do it but plan on a lot more work than you think & a lot more $$$$. You can make money in the cow/calf business but if you do you will be in the minority. Hey give it a shot, you've got a great opportunity with the situation you outlined. Ask your retiring friend to mentor you & to be an extra set of eyes, bet he'll do it. Good luck to you.

In a perfect world you would be able to take over the daily work of the cattle and have your friend oversee you. Almost like an employee. Cattle are something that you need to have an intuition for. Without that you are going to need leadership. I grew up with about 120 head that we fed sileage and square bales to everyday by hand. We didn't know there was another way. Now when I put round bales in the feeder I feel like I am cheating!

You still have to be out in them to see who has pinkeye, who looks lame, and whether your herd is looking healthy. You need to understand the ailments that are frequent in your area (like Fescue Foot is here) and ways to keep them healthy. You need to make nice with all of the neighbors. Will an out cow (that is in with the neighbor's cattle) be an emergency that has to be taken care of or can it wait until the next time your neighbor sorts cattle.

I fear for you doing it so quick. Your learning curve will be with animals that are worth thousands. There's no "oops pass" that isn't costly. I think it is doable for lots of people that have a mentor.

I love having cattle. I feel at home walking among them. It makes me smile to take them bales on snowy winter mornings. Having a cow crap down the front of you is something that just happens. If those things scare you think twice. Some folks are meant to have cattle and some folks are just meant to eat them.

Is he really "tired of fooling with cattle" or offering to teach you?
If it's the latter you may stand a very good chance.

Just remember there will be days when you feel just like this poor calf feels now.

Anyone is probably nuts to get into livestock, doesn't prevent them from doing it.

30 or 100, beef cows might be close to the same amount of work really. More money at risk tho.

Can buy feed, the more you grow yourself, the more you control your costs and future. I'd plan to get to making your own hay sooner than later, but can wait a year I see your reasoning.

Checking critters, sure is good to spend 5 minutes looking at them once a day, but can check them every hour and miss something; if they have a pond to drink can go a week not doing much during your 5 minutes a day... That's a hard call if they have water on what to say.....

Looks like a good opportunity, and if its a dream for you to want to try, sure be hard to pass up. If he is doing anything to help, watch the cows for a day a week, or advise you a tad along the way, would especially be something to jump on....

Paul

I turned 70 today and feed tri tip to a 100 so my friends and neighbors.
I've been in the cow business for 61 of those years, but now I can no longer give the cows the care they deserve it's time to let someone else do it.
The cow are for sale, I'm trying to find a young family to lease the replacements to. Just can't quite bring myself to completely get out after forty years of AI to some of the best beef bulls in the us.
I say go for it many of those years I held a job and custom farmed.

I agree that except for the few times one needs to vaccinate/worm/sort cattle there's not much more time required for 100 than 30. Also with all the low birth weight calving bulls I rarely have calving problems. Calves are similar to all newly born animals fun to watch grow up. As far as hay goes I'm not sure it's about a cheap to buy ones hay requirements vs growing/baling it.

I have to strongly disagree with the 100 cow thing. It doesn't look like you have any pasture. I've seen those mudhole operations where too many cows are packed in to one place.

A full time job,no cattle experience,100 cows,that's a combination of suicide and animal cruelty.

I summer 500 pairs, and run 2 Longhorns year around. It takes as much work to baby sit the 2 as it does the 500. I don't check them eveyday. When its HOT, I check every other day, when its cool, and we have a breeze, I check twice a week. Gotta have the breeze for the windmills. I have enough water capacity that I can go 3 days if something happens to my wells, and I have 2 different water sources in each pasture, so it takes a catastrophe to put me totally out of water.
If your neighbor will mentor you, livestock are extremely rewarding. Maybe not financially, but in other ways. Then again, they can be devastating, if you get a bug in your herd, drought, flood, or some other crisis. It will tear your heart out, trying to take care of them. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A MENTOR to make it work. Otherwise the learning curve will eat you alive.

I would look at the pasture and hay you will have access to an then make the decision on how many head you could handle on a part time basis. Also is the owner willing/wanting to help out some??? This could be just keeping an eye on things when you are at work. Raking hay for you if you are at work and the baler guy is coming. This type of thing. Most older land/cattle owners want to do some of this type fo stuff but just not the hard cold winter feeding and spring calving work.

The hay issue is one that you can solve fairly easy in several ways.
1) Just buy a mower and rake. Then hire the round baling done. The mower could easily be just a sickle bar mower conditioner in grass hay. So you could get by without a lot of money. Now with a full time job and 30-50 acres of hay DO NOT buy a $500 Moco and think you are going to get much done. The majority of the guys on here that do that are mowing maybe 5-20 acres of hay and many are retired. They have TIME to play with an old mower to get things done. You will not. By a fairly good machine.

2) IF the farm has a more hay acres than you need then have someone bale it on the shares. Common around here is they do ALL the work and you provide the land/hay and fertilizer. You split the hay 50-50. This is for round bales. Small squares would be 60-40 with the 60 going to the guy doing the work.

3) In grass hay you will usually need an acre of hay per cow./calf pair. This is only true in areas they grow 3-5 tons of forage a year. Out west the numbers would be maybe double per head/acre.

My main question is??? With your low cattle knowledge will the current own be willing to train/educate you in what you need to know??? Like some others have said it is more than throwing feed out and walking away. It also is a high capitol business too. IF the ground you are looking at renting is row crop farmable then I can just about tell you that it will not work if the owner wants current rental rates per acre.

A way I got into cattle years ago was a split owner ship deal. The land/cattle/cow owner kept his cattle and land. He provided the cattle and land. I provided all the equipment and labor. We split the fertilizer 50-50. I baled all the hay, spread the manure, feed the cattle, paid for the Meds. We split the calf income50/50 at weaning. Usually 500-600 LBS calves. If I kept them until finished I bought his share at weaning.

Without more knowledge of your exact deal this is about as good as I can do.

It sounds like this man thinks you can do it, otherwise he wouldn't have made you the offer. He sees something in you that makes him comfortable taking over his operation. I know I for sure wouldn't sell my cattle and rent my farm to someone who I didn't think could run it. The fact that he has made you the offer is a compliment to yourself. Go for it. No risky, no makey.

Amen.

Plan on being ,cronicly short of money(there is no money in cattle 9 years out of 10),Plan on having no more freedom and no more vacation.
Having livestock is a 24/7/365 job.
If you're OK with above then go for it,..expect a steep learning curve.

rrlund made a comment that got me thinking. He mentioned too many cattle might be on to little pasture. We have had cattle on enough pasture and at times not enough pasture. Not enough pasture can be a mood changer depending on weather.
Your finances are none of my business, but I would surely would sit down with a few different people and do some initial capital needed projections. Also, workout some kind of cash flow projections.
I would never have thought of it, but the comment about suicide got me thinking. It might not be a bad idea to be professionally evaluated to make sure you have personality suitable to handle this undertaking. Good luck in your decision.