off topic but on topic rant

Ok so I asked a question on implement talk yesterday about having problems with a baler. I got 2 answers, one kinda ticked me off.

In a round about way I got a mini lecture about not having a manual. Ya ok I don't have a manual, I'm sorry, I guess I'm a bad person. What makes it worse is it was from someone that I enjoy reading his posts and seeing his pictures.

Now, I quite often see comments like that one or "do a search". So if every person had all the manuals for every piece of equipment they owned, what would the point of sites like this be? People wouldn't need to come to a site like this to ask for other peoples help.

If we didn't have a site like this, how many people wouldn't have met some of the great people they have because of this site?

Sorry if this post is out of line, just a little mad and needed to vent.

P.s.to the person that made the comment, this isn't a personal attack. Your not the only person I've seen say that.
 
Well...first off i wouldnt let the few diminish the lot that are on here.. I have received both smart a$$ remarks and ALOT of Great advise too..

second.. get a manual...lol.. I have manuals for EVERYTHING..including parts and service. WHY.. they save you money in the long run.. also and this is the most important part of this reply.. you get a huge supply of different answers when you ask questions on any of these sights..manuals help with YOU understanding the help that is given.. not to mention its just a dang good idea.. Good Luck..
 
Being a mechainc by trade I, more than most, understand how nice it is to have a manual when your working on a piece of equipment. That said, finding a manual for an old piece of equipment isn't always as easy as some people would like you to believe it is. Granted there are hundreds of places that have manuals, but finding one for a specific piece of equipment, especially something like an implement, is often like finding a needle in a haystack. Then, even if you find the manual, say on Ebay, your often bidding against someone else for ONE copy so there's no guarantee of anything. Then throw in that many places ask far more for a manual than someone want's to pay to figure out a 5 minute repair, and it makes getting what you need next to impossible.

I realize that the manuals, for some older equipment, aren't usually that expensive, but try even finding one for a new machine nowdays. A new machine might come with an operators manual, but try finding a repair manual that doesn't have to be special ordered......and I say special because you pay the 'special' price too. The last ones I called about were for two Volvo rubber tired loaders. Each service manual was nearly $600. Heck I called about one for a CAT mini track loader a few years back and that manual was over $1000.

In the end, with prices like that, the fact that most new manuals have to be special ordered (often with a couple of week lead time), all that's involved with finding and obtaining one for an older machine, and not being able plan your breakdowns around all of it, having a manual every time you need it IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....Unless you win the lottery, so you can put a team on tracking down every manual you need, and when found 'money is no object'..... I don't know about every one else, but none of those things are going to happen for me any time soon. So, I guess I'll just have to keep muddling along asking questions from anyone that might know the answer, just as you did. Anyone that doesn't like it can come make the repair themselves....since they obviously have a book for EVERYTHING they own, or they wouldn't be badmouthing someone that doesn't...........
 
I am one of those that say, "do you have a manual" because quite often (70%) or more of the problems here are addressed in a "manual".

More importantly, if you have a manual, we can talk intelligently to one another. "Yes, I have tried that per page...." and it makes it much easier for us to understand your problem.

Your problem yesterday with the twine falling out of a needle, sounds like you have mis-threaded the twine and missed a twine guide of some sort or there is not enough tension as the twine comes out of the twine box. If it were a JD baler, there is a decal to show how to thread the twine and it is also in the "manual". Sorry I cannot be of more help with NH.
 
The need for a manual varies with the type of equipment- I've never had a manual for a disc, or for a hay rake- they're pretty self explanatory, and not very complicated.

That said, IMHO, a baler is the one piece of equipment for which you MUST have a manual- because so many things can go wrong. Not tying correctly? A baler manual will have pictures of the different knot problems you encounter, and will tell you how to fix each one. And the other reason is the disastrous consequences of not adjusting it right. That plunger coming back will make real short work of about $2,000 worth of parts if its not timed correctly, and you can't time it "by feel"- you must do it correctly, or haying season is over for the year.

I've had 4 different balers over the years, and I have yet to go to the field with any of them before I got a manual. And I have never had a manual for many of my other implements, and am none the worse for it.
 
There's no denying a manual's a good thing to have for any piece of equipment, but I'm with you.

Sometimes you commit the sin of being without one. Maybe you lost it, maybe you never got around to buying one, maybe you can't find one - whatever. It happens.

Funny thing is - I think with most people on this board, if a neighbor came by and asked for some advice with some equipment they didn't have a manual for, they wouldn't snap at them to go buy the manual, or tell them to google it.

Would be nice if the same courtesies extended in real life would carry over to the internet.

But - that's life in a faceless world like we have here.
 
I like having manuals, I have them for most all of my 40 year old tools, both tractors and some implements. I like some manufacturers like Woods that lets you download and print. I also think it helps the resale value to have a manual for the item. On the other hand I do wish some people would be a little more free with information.
 
The reason that it is so often suggested that you read the manual, particularly with square balers..... is that the book generally has some fairly specific trouble shooting charts along with pictures of failed knots and explanations of why they failed. For my own part I can't imagine sitting here looking for answers of unknown validity, to a problem with a baler knotter... when there is hay to be baled and rain coming. Sometimes 10 min worth of reading and looking at the pics presented will have your problem fixed vs sifting through 20 posts on here made by people who may not understand the problem you've encountered if they've read the original question at all...

In the case of your baler it sounds to me like it's dropping the twine from whatever twine holder that knotter has... but I'm not familiar with the MF knotter... so I'd have to read the manual.
To me it's one thing to try and help someone who can't get a manual or is waiting on one to arrive... but to deliberately decide that one isn't needed because there's an online forum somewhere... is rather foolish to me. I've also never found an old baler that I couldn't get a reprint manual for... from a dealer... in about a week... for less than 40 bucks. All the more reason to own one.

Rod
 
Yep, I think it has lot to do with the "faceless" part you reference.
For many of us typing is an effort. If we were able to talk out some advice, it would be easier to be more generous.
What really irritates me is when I give some advice on here, right out of a manual, and someone decides they know better, and have to SHOUT about it!
 
Having a manual is nice but it does not always provide the answer. Especially with older equipment that have their own quirks. That is where experience comes in and that is what is great about this site - access to lots of experience, that is generally shared in a helpful manner. I think some of the smart azz remarks are just a result of a bad day.
 
Tried to rebuild and re-tune my carb. I was able to get some information out of the factory owner's manual, some better info out of an IT service manual, some more out of this web site, some more out of a parts catalog, and after I put it all together, it finally was complete and made sense and it worked. But it took a lot of different sources. Just going to ask somebody wouldn't have worked.
 
Get the manual.
Sometims I know the answer but am not up to doing 15 minutes of typing when you could read it yourself in half that time.
And if you get the manual you'll have the right to gently admonish others to do the same.
Thid is not a personal attack either.
 
Yep, ya can read it in the manual. Spend an hour trying to deciper it. Then try to duplicate what the manual tells you, the after some trial and error, you might get it fixed in a day or two.

Or you can ask some ole grizzled veteren who can cut through the crap, give you some sound advice, a few tips, and maybe even a shortcut or two, and you go on your way.

And modern manuals are written by educated idiots for normal idiots. Complete with indecipherable pictures and drawings that only and idiot who cant speak English can uderstand.

Gene

Gene
 
I have a manual for every piece of equipment I own. That said, based upon my educational background I would guess that I can comprehend what is in the manual pretty well. So I am very frustrated when I ask for advice..beyond the manual... on this forum, and some guy who has never been within a mile of the old iron like mine, tells me to buy a manual.
If that is all you have to offer.....save your typing time.
 
A combine, a planter, and a baler a person really needs to own a manual for if at all possible.

Those are such specialty machines, with very complicated settings and adjustments......

So, it was probably good advice, something I might have said.

I understand your frustration, we need to help each other.

But, lot of questions are really hard to explain or know where your skill level is, and on those 3 machines, it just gets tough.

If you have the manual, we can rough in or zero in some help to each other, and know you will be able to follow the small details in the manual.

Without the manual, its a daunting task to put down every step, remind you of the timing issues, go through every adjustment and so on, as one affects another. Put a lot of pressure on a person trying to help, a step done wrong could cost you some dough......

You are kinda asking a lot of people too when you haven't put any effort into knowing your machine, to get a manual on one of the complicated ones.

But I know, when a person wants some simple quick advice, being told to get a book and read is not what a person showed up for!

Hope you get the baler going, didnt notice your message, will have to go look for it.

Paul
 
It is annoying! We have a manual for almost everything we own, but sometimes ya get the piece home and wanna do something on it before ya can get a manual, or often someone has been down the same road before and can offer more or better info than the manual.
I saw one guy that complained about taking the time to answer questions that are easily addressed in the manual??? Is there a law that says he has to answer?
I think if you take the time to think it back, most of the guys that give ya the smart azzz "get a manual" answer are Deere guys...it comes from the "Mr. Thinker" section in Two Cylinder magazine...kinda like BuickandDeere on here...only two things guaranteed when he answers you: gonna tell you how useless and horrible N Fords are, and sarcastically gonna tell you to get a manual.
Don"t get me wrong, I love my Deeres too, but generally enjoy hanging with and talking to people at shows that are not Green Expos...people that deal with other colors seem to not be so high strung and hoity toity!
Don"t get offended JDSeller! LOL I don"t mean everyone that loves Green!
 
Check the manual. Your answer's in there.



Yeah, I know. I'm not going to buy a manual to trouble-shoot someone else's tractor when it's probably just going to go back to JD to get fixed anyhow.
 
Working on a baler with out a manual is just plain foolish.Getting the timing wrong can cut the needles off.Knotter problems are not something to tinker with.Ive had one knotter get out of time with the other.Very hard to describe but I could show you how it can happen in a minute..When I bought my 640 Ford I bought 2 owners manuals.Kept the one with the fewest greasy finger prints and sold the other.I had years of experience with 9n 2n 8n but not 640 different tractor than the 8n.I spent most of my working years in radio and tv repair.First thing to do is look at the diagram before you touch the tv.Shops have much money in service info.The internet has produced a bunch of moochers who wont buy service manuals.
 
Not having a manual when working on a piece of equipment is like walking around in the dark with no flashlight,I've done both when I had to but sometimes it doesn't work out too well.
 
There are a lot of good answers on here. I would like to add myself and some others come off on here as rude where we are not intending to be. Im not a real grumpy person but sometimes I sound like I am......

My advise in the future is buy a manual. Read it at night or when you may have a few minutes and get yourself acquainted with it. I have ran machines and than went and read the manual and found things to help me out. Reading whats between the lines are whats nice to go on here.

In my own experience I learned how to run an A-C roto baler at age 15 with nothing bug a manual. Those were trying times! lol

Jim
 
I just went looking for your original post about the baler, and am leaving a response there too. I have a MF 124 baler that is similar to your 128, I think the my manual covers both. The knotters work differently in this type of baler than many others. Might be that the 9000 poly is too slippery to stay in the twine disk. Try 7200 sisal and see if it works. On this baler, you need to cut the twine and pull it off the billhooks after tripping the needles the first time, which is something most people wouldn't know to do without following the procedure in the manual. The advise on looking at the troubleshooting section of the book is sound advise. MF does a good job with their manuals. There are pictures in the manual too showing how to tell if the tension is too loose or tight by how the twine lays on the knotter disk.
 
"If everyone had all the manuals to everything they owned, what would the point of this site be?"

The manuals don't tell you how to troubleshoot problems.
The manuals only go so far in telling you how to take things apart.

There are still lots of questions to be asked even if you do have the manuals.

No offense here but, quit yer b**chin'. I am so sick of people throwing hissy fits because their question wasn't answered exactly the way they thought it should be answered.

God forbid someone offers you a piece of advice that saves you time, saves you money, or saves you from bodily harm.

This is a forum. The advice is free, and worth exactly what you paid for it. Take what you get with a smile and a polite thank-you.
 
Super Steve, you may want to adjust your meds and just chill a bit. I have to side with most folks below, that you really do need to get manuals for your baler. I re-read your post about the baler and see that you have been baling already without benefit of any manual. You are a very lucky man that you have not baled up the needles - - YET.
Having a manual for an older tractor that you have owned for 40 years and have taken apart many times is not so critical, but not having a manual for a small square baler is not very smart.
Tom
 
Sorry MKIRSCH but the comment "The manuals don't tell you how to troubleshoot problems" is incorrect. There are a lot of implement manuals that DO have a troubleshooting section. They have helped me out on a lot of occasions.

Jim
 
(quoted from post at 13:30:11 06/20/13) Sorry MKIRSCH but the comment "The manuals don't tell you how to troubleshoot problems" is incorrect. There are a lot of implement manuals that DO have a troubleshooting section. They have helped me out on a lot of occasions.

"A lot of occasions" but not EVERY occasion, right? Even with the troubleshooting sections in the manual there were times where you encountered problems that were not covered, or the recommended solution did not fix the problem right?

The point was/is that manuals don't cover everything, and even if you do have them there is still need for forums like this.

That said, you can't get your knickers in a wad just because someone gives you a little extra information...
 
....but they ARE available and more than a few so-called parents could stand to read a few of them! Not saying you, but many.
 
(quoted from post at 12:31:49 06/20/13) "If everyone had all the manuals to everything they owned, what would the point of this site be?"

The manuals don't tell you how to troubleshoot problems.
The manuals only go so far in telling you how to take things apart.

There are still lots of questions to be asked even if you do have the manuals.

No offense here but, quit yer b**chin'. I am so sick of people throwing hissy fits because their question wasn't answered exactly the way they thought it should be answered.

God forbid someone offers you a piece of advice that saves you time, saves you money, or saves you from bodily harm.

This is a forum. The advice is free, and worth exactly what you paid for it. Take what you get with a smile and a polite thank-you.

Well, you either got the wrong manuals or don't know how to read them, one or the other.

As far as advice on here goes, I would venture a guess that it is a 50/50 split as to who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't as I have read a lot of wrong info on here and a lot of good info as well.

The part about the free advice is dead on.
 
The old manuals told you most everything that you needed to know, nowadays they just give you a lot of safety information and tell you to take it to your dealer if you have a problem!
 
(quoted from post at 21:45:04 06/20/13) The old manuals told you most everything that you needed to know, nowadays they just give you a lot of safety information and tell you to take it to your dealer if you have a problem!

Those are operators manuals not service manuals, big difference.
 
A lot of the older operators manuals, particularly for hay equipment... would give most pertinent information needed for field repairs and all critical adjustments. Lots of times there was no service manual for such things...

Rod
 

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