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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder

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Allan In NE

03-04-2013 05:56:36
148.66.88.254



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"new rings to worn liners."

That's the part that is just plain silly. :>)

Allan




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John B.

03-04-2013 07:56:08
38.114.64.177



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
Silly ain't the word for it.

Cylinders wear in the shape of a bell or an oval when viewed as a profile. Rings new or old cannot expand fast enough in the worn areas to seal and prevent oil consumption. When they expand outward to seal the worn part of the cylinder walls this creates a bigger gap between the ring and piston allowing more oil to sneak by from that side.



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jwmfarms

03-04-2013 07:50:53
96.228.6.239



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
I'm with you, Allan! If you are going to open a "can of worms", do the whole job while you"ve got it open. Why go half way, and then have to open it again? Or, as my mechanic grandfather used to say, "Why is it that people who don't have the time or money to do it right the first time, always seem to be able to find the time and money to do it right the second time"?



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NCWayne

03-04-2013 07:50:53
69.40.232.132



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
Forgot to mention it in my other post, but a liner is not really any different than the bore in a cylinder block. Think about it like this. If you tore your engine down and it didn't need to be bored oversized, would you bore it just to say you had a 'new' bore, or simply hone it get the necessary roughness needed for a new set of rings to seat? This is no different than reusing an old liner, just as the book suggests doing.

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NCWayne

03-04-2013 07:43:15
69.40.232.132



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
Why is that silly? The work involved to remove and rebuild the engine in a large piece of earthmoving equipment is far greater than the labor to do the same in the average farm tractor. Too, back then if a part wasn't worn out the idea was to reuse what parts you could and only replace the parts that were worn beyond factory specs. CAT, for one, has always had a guide showing what was acceptable and what wasn't, along with the standard 'out of service' limits on their pieces. That said if you tore an engine down, say in an old D9, and the liners weren't worn beyond specs, why replace them? In a case like that what you do is hone the liners to get them ready for a new set of rings, clean the pistons (if they aren't damaged), install new rings, and put it all back together.

Regardless of the engine size, what it sll comes down to is exactly what I said before, why replace parts that aren't worn out. Unfortunately, nowdays alot of the thought on reuse vs replace has to do with the cost of labor. In other words the new part is cheaper than the cost of the labor involved to clean and reuse the old ones. In a case like that, then yes, new parts will always be used. Thing is when it comes to the large engines that isn't always the case and the reuse of 6 $500 liners, that only take $120 each in time and labor to reinstall with new seal rings and hone, actually makes good sense.

In the end I'm all for using new parts in a rebuild when necessary, but when the old parts aren't damaged and are well within spec, why waste a customers money when youm don't need to? In fact I'm currently having to do this on a 6 BT Cummins because a customer decided not to go with a reman engine, against my recommendation, and instead went for a repair. They had gotten someone else involved in the 'repair' and I got called in a month later to complete the deal. Now I've got to 'repair' the repair, which has already cost them close to $4000 and do it within their budget. One cylinder has already been bored and sleeved to standard and has a new piston, but to get them back and running now means pulling the other 5 pistons (that had been allowed to set with water on top of them for several days), replacing one of the pistons that has pieces of debris imbedded in the crown, honing the cylinder walls, and reringing the remaining 4 pistons and reinstalling them. While this line of "repair" grates against every bone in my body, but it is the only way to get this engine running again short of throwing the money already spent away and starting over. True it's still got old bearings, seals, etc, but what will be done is as close to doing an 'inframe' rebuild as I can get them, and at this time, unfortunately, it's about their only choice. However with the 'used' cylinder walls properly honed, the old, undamaged pistons, and a new set of rings it's really no different than the conditions you'd find in new/reman engine.

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Billy NY

03-04-2013 08:10:20
72.226.79.200



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to NCWayne, 03-04-2013 07:43:15  
I would agree with what you stated about rebuilding and not having to replace a liner if it checks out to be within tolerance, but the word, "worn", to me would mean out of tolerance, or at least a noticeable degree of wear, "worn out" would be an obvious typo, so maybe its just the language/choice of word, what they really meant was along what you said, however a worn liner and new rings, even with a honing, if the liner is beyond or very close to the specification for acceptable tolerance, I don't believe it would perform, could be problematic, ( you would know more than I about it) but say they meant what you said, lack of means to hone or etch the liner, new rings, liner is within tolerance, but has appreciable wear, and is difficult to get oil control, only then did this method become viable or was one employed for the stubborn to seat rings overhauls.

Its kind of interesting to consider how they arrived at doing this.

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Adirondack case guy

03-04-2013 07:03:59
74.69.160.79



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
That was back before we became a "throwaway society".
Loren, the Acg.



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Billy NY

03-04-2013 06:36:31
72.226.79.200



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
It sure is, stood out like a sore thumb when I read it. There was a lot of trials and tribulations with oil and such in those days, this was part of it and I have seen some errors in these old books, funny you picked up on that too, I cannot even visualize it working, worn liner and new rings, always thought you can't have one without the other.

This book contains more specific details about the engine, then the 3 original books that came with a D7 tractor. I did not look in any of those manuals to see if this section was also in the engine section of those, might just appear in this particular book, maybe common knowledge in those days to the engine shops/mechanics at Caterpillar dealers, have to wonder how people reacted to this practice when it was first used.

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Tx Jim

03-04-2013 06:29:03
67.142.163.27



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 Re: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder in reply to Allan In NE, 03-04-2013 05:56:36  
Calm down Allan. IHC did the same thing with used liners & rings :lol: :lol: :lol:



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