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Timber Harvest Questions, Suggestions, Opinions

C

Christopher S.

Member
We have been looking into having the timber on our property harvested and had a few questions for any of you who might have already done it.

The quotes we have received specified that trees larger than 14" in diameter would be harvested. One company would pay us $3,500 less if we required them to use animals to pull the timber out of the woods.

1. What are your opinions on a tractor/skidder versus using animals? Is the $3,500 well spent on animals?

2. What should we expect them to do with the tree tops, the gentlemen we talked to said they leave them in the woods where they cut them.

3. What stipulations or rights do we have as far as them building a road to get to the farther corners of the property? Do they stone it, restore it and seed it after they are done?

4. They will also be using our driveway as part of the haul road, will they maintain it, will they build it up if it falls apart?

5. Is there anything else I need to know before we commit to someone. We value your guys knowledge.

Thanks
 
Timber Harvest, doing it the right way.
1. Hire yourself a professional forester
He will mark and inventory all timber to be sold
Consult with you the best things to do.
He will put the timber out to bid.
he will draw up a contract with the logger.
The contract will list all conditions you want,and will allow you to be paid before the logger starts work.
The forester is working for YOU and you will pay him, usually by a percentage of the volume of wood sold (Board Foot)
I know you will have to pay him but it will be well worth the investment.
I have had 2 timber sales done, with hiring a profesional forester,and have been more than satisfied with the results.
2. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL FORESTER.
This is the only way you can be sure you are not cheated.
3. Make sure all your boundries are MARKED.
 
You are very wise to have all trees marked, board feet quantified, all stipulations for working on the land, a written scope of work, even if there are extras you want done, cost increase due to say dragging tops out for you for firewood or anything similar.

One thing I hate about these guys is many of them, not all are very sloppy, will steal, and damage the base of existing trees. In short have it all wrung out before any equipment shows up, if not to your liking, find someone who is, and never be in a hurry, its wise to be very careful and detail orientated with loggers, the reputation that precedes them is often times a bad one.
 
Depending on the time of year and type of ground , those fellers and skidders will leave very little dammage as it is the tree itself defacing the woods skidding out to staging area. Try to have it done in the dry or frozen part of the year. A skidder lifts up the butt ends for less dammage. How do the horses keep the butts up? The skidder will take 4 at a time, depending on size. One trip compared to 4 with horses. Check out some references on the company and talk to someone who has used them. Main thing is CLEARLY express your concerns and priorities ahead of time. Company who did the 160acres school forest right beside me did oustanding job with feller/buncher and skidder on a selective / thinning job.
 
Dad just had 40 acres done. It could have gone worse, could have gone alot better. The contract was so short it was almost a joke. We added a good bit to the contract. Here are a couple points.
-We made them cut the tops up so that nothing was standing more than 5 ft high. Otherwise you can have giant tree tops hanging that can fall on you at a later date.
-We gave them 3 months to get the work done. Their contract didnt have a settime frame for completion.
-When they say "restore roads" it means whatever they can do with a dozer. They logged 40 acres over about 2.5 weeks. It took the dozer operator a sat morning to do the restoration work.
-Make it know that you wont tolerate trash left anywhere. Our guys left their bar oil jugs,lunch trash, and grease gun tubes right where they were done with them...
-If you are at all fussy prepare to do some restoration work yourself because fighting to get the loggers to restore it how you want it isnt worth the hassle. I rented a tracked skidsteer to do the work. If I had hired it out I probably would have had 10% of the logging money spent on restoration.
-I agree that you should get an independant forestor to evaluate it. We didnt, and it was a mess. The forrestor said it was the loggers problem. The loggers passed the blame to the truckers etc etc. A giant game of finger pointing...
 
All of the above are under your control.
Under wet conditions (most of the time in a woods) equipment will leave radical ruts. I would specify that no ruts be made greater than 4 inches deep. Use of draft animals or selection of devices to assure that depth max.
I would specify that no tracks be cut directly down hill unless they are filled after use within 1 week of the final haul out.
I would specify that multiple paths be used to get to the parts of the forest, not a few over used "roads". Lite use is easier to heal.
I would use a licensed forester to select all trees to be harvested.
I would specify all slash to be cut and all limbs over 5 inches cut and piled. (not necessarily stacked, but not left in the brush)
I would specify that all slash be cut to no more than 2 ft off the ground.
I would specify the amount of allowed collateral damage. This includes driveways, fences, and other trees that are destroyed when felling the large trees.
Always specify a time line with costs for exceeding the dates and closure.
Get front money weekly, before removal of timber.
My family has had three harvests on our land. 2 successful, and one horrible. My cousin had no clue and did no control. Her 20 acres will take 70 years to return to its former nature. None of the above was attempted to be controlled. It cannot be walked through at all. it is basically trashed.
Always get a second company to bid the job based on your specifications.

If they cannot handle your conditions you sure won't handle theirs. Jim
 
A 14" tree is pretty darn small. I totally agree with D7fever, HIRE A FORESTER! If you do it right you can probably cut every 15-20 years. The real problem with skidders is if not done carefully they can damage as much as they cut, and that's your future harvest. The big advantage of using horses to skid logs is they do much less damage to surrounding timber, which is to your advantage in the future. Plus they are a thing of beauty to watch work. As far as roads go I've never seen any kind of improvement done by a logger, and never seen any damage to lanes, etc. repaired properly. Just a whack or two with the small blade on a skidder. If I seem predjudiced, it's because I am. I've seen woods harvested properly, with very little damage to the remaining timber, and I've seen others that won't be able to be harvested again for 40 years. If you look at every logger as a criminal and plan accordingly you should do OK. But be sure to cover the bases, get the best advice you can. I don't want to offend anyone, but the chances of the same logger coming back to harvest again are nil, so for them it's a one time deal. Timber is like any other crop, but the harvest cycle is a lot longer so you need to make sure you do it right. Just my rant!
 
I worked through a 'timber jockey' twice, and on the second round I got chummy with the Amish guys that were doing the work. I was sickened at how much money I lost, middleman vs. sawmill direct. My suggestion would be find out who is really buying the wood, and deal with them. As for the tops, they can be sold as fire wood. Talk with fire wood guys, make a deal like you get $20 for every chord they haul out of your property. You can't get greedy here, if the price is too high, nobody will cut it and you'll be cleaning it up yourself. If you want to cut firewood yourself, it's best to wait a year or so. This way, the little stuff dries up, and when you push it around with a dozer it all breaks off and you end up with choice-cutting firewood with a lot less work.
 
My Dad sold timber a few years ago. We had a forester come in and mark the trees to harvest then he put it up for sealed bids from the buyers. They cut and skidded short distances in the fall. They piled at the edges of fields and hauled from there after the ground froze. Tops were left where dropped. I would think it would cost extra to do anything else with them. We did not have any issues with roads as all heavy hauling was done on frozen ground (I don't know if that is an option for you). Skidding on frozen ground would eliminate any concerns you have there. Either way talk to them beforehand about any concerns you have. $3500 for skidding with animals sounds like a lot but you didn't say how many trees you are cutting .
 
Had about 75 acres of timber I wanted harvested. Shows up in my driveway driving a Caddy Escalde. He gets out wearing 'bling' and fancy clothes. Introduces himself, says he is a logger and sticks out his hand. I look at his hand and it is as soft and white as a baby's butt.

I kinda told him he needed to leave my property very quickly.

Beware of contractors.
 
Also, I gotta say this. I had another parcel of ground "clear cut". About 20 acres. They could cut roads wherever they wanted. Tops left where they fell. For the first 4 or 5 years it looked like a carp. But, during that time, you would not believe the amount of wildlife it drew in! Deer, Turkey, Grouse, Bobcats and Coyotes.

It's been 15 years since that tree harvest and we have a great habitat.
 
Lots of good advice here, the most important being to hire a forester. He can tell you what your trees are worth, he can tell you which loggers to work with, and more important, the ones to avoid. He can help you draw up a contract.

Don't know what your circumstances are, but to me it's almost not worth it to timber a tract. The mess and the damage can be huge. To a skidder, the shortest distance from point A to point B is a straight line. Everything in between gets stomped down or skinned up. If you have a lot of small hardwoods, they get bent over and stay that way; they don't die, they're in the way and they look terrible.
 
if you have a loan on the land then you must notify your bank because you are in fact selling a asset and you will have to make terms with them
 
me and my dad cut a little timber in the winter and farm in the summer. i drive the logskidder we like frozen ground but a woods raely freezs up remember a skidder will go where nothen else will. on soft ground a dozer will end up maken a bigger mess.we use a dozer on hilly ground or thick woods and to grade skid trails. we only select cut and have gone back to many places 3-4 times in the last 30-40 years. we allways work within 20 miles of home where or mill is and most people know us and there always fairly happy when were done.wetend to use a main skid trail threw the middle and branch off from it. sometimes well run just the cabble a ways to avoid real soft spots. ive seen where hourses have ben used and most times they do more damage than we do. they make maney more trips and every log they drag they have to be able to back right up to it so thats a lot more roads and downed saplings. they also will have logs drug everywhere cause they cant bunch them up.we always ask what the owner wants and tell them how mutch money there getten for the marked trees, about how long it will take. pay at least half up front and agree on the rest of payment. usealy leave tops were the lay and cut them down and pull the ones down that are tangeled. weve cut for some realy fussy people and so far no real problems. if there are ruts that need graded we do that in dry weather cause mud dond grade the best. in 5 years or so youed be surprised how the woods fills with saplings. best advice id give is ask for refresences and get at least 3 bids and talk about every thing you want and expect.
 
I agree with the others, using a Forester will probably net you a higher final return, along with a better job . As for the tops, they are an excellent source of firewood if they are hardwoods.I cut up all the tops from when I had some logs cut , and have also cut up alot on my neighbors.
 
About 15 years ago, I had all the large pine trees logged on my 20 acres. The log price on large Ponderosa pine was supposed to have been the best it EVER had been, and there was talk about the mill that handled the large (3 foot thick butts) logs was going to quit in the near future. So I got talked into having some guys with a skidder take the trees down and put them in a deck for logging trucks with self loaders to haul them to the mill.

They were supposed to do the limbing in only several spots and pile the slash for burning. When all was said and done, they just left the limbs and tops where they happened to fall. I worked part time for 2 years cleaning up my property. The trails the skidder dug are still there.

But the worst thing was that I only got about $7k after the loggers and haulers were paid. And that $7k came in a year that I had very high income because I retired from my career because of health reasons. I ended up paying a large share of the logging proceeds as income tax. I realize that was my fault for not planning my tax impact very well, but it all seemed like I wasted my big trees and was left with a he!! of a mess.

I was told that lots of the large trees were very mature and that they would not grow much larger, and might start dieing off. Maybe. And I was told of the high log prices offered then and that the mill might close.

If I had it to do over, I would not have cut a single tree. I didn"t make any money from the logging and had to do a whole lot of work to clean up the mess that wasn"t supposed to have ever been created.

I would think long and hard about how bad you want to tear up your place and how much you will NET from the logging. Good luck!
 
Right now timber is way down in price, it crashed when the houseing bust hit.They allways tell you its up.If you can wait it might go up.
 
Well a honest logger is kind of like looking for a virgin at the Mustang Ranch. (Old saying of my Grand Father)

1) Hire a professional Forrester. Make sure his is in no way affiliated with any loggers you get bids from.

2)IF your ground does not drain good than I would pay the extra to have it logged by horses. They make the recovery much easier. A skidder operator seems to be the rejects from the local mud bog racers. They could tear up a concrete runway with little effort.

3) Any road they "build" will just be pushed out with a dozer. They will not rock anything. If it is that muddy they just bring in a bigger dozer to drag the trucks in and out.

4) I have never seen them do any repair/maintenance on a driveway. IF it is soft they will just gut the loges out and leave you the mess.

5) The tops and any smaller ruined trees are usually just left where they fall.


My one Grand Father used to log with horses. I would help him drag logs. He did it on the shares. All the logs where stamped before they left the farm/woods. These numbers where matched at the saw mill. Then he got a settlement sheet listing every log and number. The mills that wanted to just pay a lump sum without a settle sheet did not get any logs he cut.

I am not sure if they even do the stamping and settlement sheets anymore.

Unless you have a lot of trees I would not allow them to be cut. Most of the loggers these days will just rape the woods with zero thought of any future growth. They will be long gone by then so they just worry about today.
 
How many acres are you having logged? Local fellow
logs some and does as good of a job as anyone I have seen logging he'll give you a percentage cut
of what he wants and what you'll get.Then he cuts all the logs and lays them out in the side of a field all sorted as to type of timber and then calls in buyers to come give a bid.He says the timber will bring the more money that way than taking them to a mill load by load.The mill bidding gives two bids they haul and he hauls.As far as the tops why worry about them in the woods?
They'll all be long gone before you cut logs again.
 
For the lap wood you can hire a company to grind them up for pulp wood. Get some extra money & get the land cleaned up also.
 
Had our land harvested 10 years ago, 50 acres of aspen, red and white oak. Had a forester from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources walk the land with me. Cost nothing and they provided me with a wonderful analysis of what needed to be done to improve wildlife habit and recommended a good logger. Very happy with the results and have seen improvement in wildlife
 
Chris, timber harvest recommendations all depend upon where you live, the timber species, climate, soil type and local timber harvesting practices. Horse logging will have the least impact on the residual stand, but is seldom worth the extra cost unless you have exceptionally valuable trees or a small acreage. Also to be considered is whether you are harvesting species that require open sunlight for regeneration ie. pine, aspen etc. Like others have stated here, you are well advised to consult with a state forester first. That should cost you nothing and he can provide you with a number of options based upon your goals and expectations. Just remember one thing, all timber harvest techniques look rough for the first few years, but mother nature will heal that and your wildife will adjust accordingly. There are trade-off for every manipulations you make in timber management, some good and some not so good. But you are the one in the driver's seat. You can actually improve wildlide habitat for deer/ quail/ grouse, but may be a temporary setback for turkey/ squirrel.
 
I had a friend, now deceased that was a logger. He only logged in the winter & wanted a 3 year time frame so if the snow got too deep he could continue the next year. In the winter the sap is down & the ground is frozen.
 
Cutting the logs to shipping length before skidding reduces standing tree damage at turns.
It"s mostly about the person driving the skidder and if they care.
Put it in writing with a penalty for tree butt damage.
 
Find a local reputable forester to walk the woods and develop a management plan. If a timber harvest is what is needed to achieve your desired results then have the timber marked and put out for bids. This will insure that you are getting the best price. Also most foresters will have a good contract to work off of to get exactly what you want out of the sale.

Equipment depends on the trees and the terrain, but in the end it comes down to the operator. I have crews running 8 wheeled double bunk forwarders that leave stands looking better than guys skidding with horses. They take their time and care about the job. I rarely put stipulations on equipment as that can scare away some of the better operators.

Just my 2cents as a certified forester.

Also a forester can help with with tax concerns. If timber is sold without a timber basis then you will pay taxes on the revenue from the sale. If you had a timber inventory/basis established around the time you acquired the property then there are ways you can sell the timber without the high tax liability.
 
A LOT depends on what type of wood you're looking at harvesting...
Generally speaking, in answer to your questions...
1. Nobody is using horses here. There might be the odd one still using a cable skidder. Anyone that's working in the woods is using a forwarder of some type.
2.Hardwoods... I'd expect to be topped out for firewood. Softwood... for fiber... is topped down to a minimal diameter and what's left is of no consequence spread around on the ground. Same for limbs.
3. Roads.... you can stipulate whatever you want. It's your land. What you get is another story. In general... unless someone else is paying for said road... see item 1. Wood is hauled as close to asphalt with forwarder as is possible.
4. They'd probably keep your driveway in some kind of repair if there's enough wood in there to make it worth their while.

Reality is this... in the softwood fiber market today there is NO money. If you get 10 dollars per cord, count yourself lucky. In sawlogs you might double that. In high grade hardwood... probably a lot more, to a point. But there again... are they only going to high grade the butt logs and leave the 75% firewood behind that doesn't make the grade? I've seen guys do that. That's a mess that will last 30 years and left half the value in the woods while the best was raped.

If you've got softwood for pulp/fiber... you can basically expect the area to be flattened and nothing of value left. Mabey not even the brush depending on wether or not the mill wants hog fuel.

What I can tell you... is that if you impose even half the conditions that some have suggested in this thread... your wood will rot on the stump.

Rod
 
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