- Thread starter dej(Jed)
- Start date
Ted in NE-OH
Well-known Member
Not unless belt was slipping and the oil stops that. Unlikely
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
I do not think it would increase the output by very much unless there is so much drag that it slows the RPM down and if there was that much drag then the bushings would be getting very bad
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Keep a wee dab of oil in the cup but not enough to collect oil and dirt inside the generator.
Walt Davies
Well-known Member
Depends on the type of bearings on the generator some require a small amount of oil daily if so they will have a place to oil them a small hole above the bearing that says oil. Or an oil cup.
If not then they have perminent lubrication.
Walt
If not then they have perminent lubrication.
Walt
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Not unless it was neglected! The last one I rebuilt had a sealed ball bearing on the drive end and a bushing on the brush end. There was a way to oil the bushing.
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
Not unless your belt is slipping. Oil will not improve the electrical output.
pete black
Well-known Member
anybody remember being warned not to add to much oil to the cup or it would "wash the bearing"? supposably the centrifugal force of the shaft would sling the excess oil off and as it left the shaft it would pull the rest of the oil with it resulting in little to on oil left. any thoughts?
Get back to some basics here: The output of the genny depends mostly/basically on how fast it turns and how much current is being pumped through its field windings. Sooooooo REGARDLESS of the bearings drag if its turned at X RPM the output is so much. HOWEVER as far as the efficiency regarding how much HP it takes to turn the genny, sure its more efficient if the bearings are properly lubricated. If so theres less heat losses.
The genny convertes rotational mechanical energy into electtricl energy, it supplies current to a load, it doesnt draw current out.
John T Too long retired electrical engineer
The genny convertes rotational mechanical energy into electtricl energy, it supplies current to a load, it doesnt draw current out.
John T Too long retired electrical engineer
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Three things affect the ability of a generator to generate, or a motor to provide mechanical power.
The design of the windings and the coupling of their magnetic field to rotating iron. or rotating iron coupling to stationary windings.
The voltage at which it operates.
And the use and control of eddy currents.
Electric motor and generator engineers use powerful computer programs and experimental testing to design windings that produce shaped fields of magnetism which are very efficient. Many motors and alternators today are based on extreme permanent magnets, and thus reduce the internal use of power to make fields.
The higher the voltage the better the efficiency (up to the point that insulation reduces the amount of copper in the windings). High voltage passes more watts (power) for the same size wire)
Eddy currents are stray magnetically induced currents that are (in the sense of this discussion only) found where variable magnetism induces electricity in loops of current in solid metal. (kind of a tiny local short circuit.) these are paracitic, and take energy that could be used for the device purpose, but is wasted in heat, or wasted in mechanical force because the current produces magnetism opposite of the input and slows down the shaft.
In conclusion there are vast differences between motors generators, and alternators. Even of similar look. Efficiencies in expensive motors designed in the last few years can approach 85 to 90% energy in mechanical force out. Old starter motors might make 50%.
All motors use a idle current draw that is a function (to a degree) of resistance under no load.
As loads are applied, the drag on the rotor changes the rotors position related to the applied magnetism and that allows it to draw more electricity, and do more work. Jim
The design of the windings and the coupling of their magnetic field to rotating iron. or rotating iron coupling to stationary windings.
The voltage at which it operates.
And the use and control of eddy currents.
Electric motor and generator engineers use powerful computer programs and experimental testing to design windings that produce shaped fields of magnetism which are very efficient. Many motors and alternators today are based on extreme permanent magnets, and thus reduce the internal use of power to make fields.
The higher the voltage the better the efficiency (up to the point that insulation reduces the amount of copper in the windings). High voltage passes more watts (power) for the same size wire)
Eddy currents are stray magnetically induced currents that are (in the sense of this discussion only) found where variable magnetism induces electricity in loops of current in solid metal. (kind of a tiny local short circuit.) these are paracitic, and take energy that could be used for the device purpose, but is wasted in heat, or wasted in mechanical force because the current produces magnetism opposite of the input and slows down the shaft.
In conclusion there are vast differences between motors generators, and alternators. Even of similar look. Efficiencies in expensive motors designed in the last few years can approach 85 to 90% energy in mechanical force out. Old starter motors might make 50%.
All motors use a idle current draw that is a function (to a degree) of resistance under no load.
As loads are applied, the drag on the rotor changes the rotors position related to the applied magnetism and that allows it to draw more electricity, and do more work. Jim
Dan T in MO
Member
OK, efficiency for anything is power in divided by power out. Watt is the unit for power and for electricity, Watts = volts times amps. In the case of an appliance with a 15 amp max draw at 120 volts, the peak power required to operate it is going to be 15 x 120 or 1800 watts. Now that is PEAK draw, like when the A/C compressor first kicks on. Most of the time, it will draw less than 15 amps.
Back to efficiency....For that, we need a way to measure how much power output the device has. For that, we have another formula to find watts.... watts = force times distance divided by time. So if I'm running an electric winch to lift something, the power will be the weight of the load multiplied by how high it is lifted divided by how long it takes to lift it. No machine is 100% efficient as friction and heat will rob some of the power. Hope this helps
Back to efficiency....For that, we need a way to measure how much power output the device has. For that, we have another formula to find watts.... watts = force times distance divided by time. So if I'm running an electric winch to lift something, the power will be the weight of the load multiplied by how high it is lifted divided by how long it takes to lift it. No machine is 100% efficient as friction and heat will rob some of the power. Hope this helps
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The DC motor will indicate closely on the ammeter
a linear relationship between current and shaft HP.
The AC motor however with a power factor that is
low at light loads with maybe 0.2 to 0.3 . At max
rated load the power factor maybe 0.6 to 0.8, even
1.0. Depending on motor design and if power factor
correction capacitors are used.
What is the project and what are you wanting to
have happen?
a linear relationship between current and shaft HP.
The AC motor however with a power factor that is
low at light loads with maybe 0.2 to 0.3 . At max
rated load the power factor maybe 0.6 to 0.8, even
1.0. Depending on motor design and if power factor
correction capacitors are used.
What is the project and what are you wanting to
have happen?
I have an engine oil additive that tests remarkably well. The request now is for me to test it in a gear box driven by an electric motor. In short can I
say use a Fluke meter to read current with and without the additive in use.
And of course will I see less of a current draw?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Not to give you a blast of wrath but you could have told us up
front what the project was and saved much conjecture.
Going to a lower viscosity oil as in running 50wt then using
10wt would show a reduction in pumping losses and viscous
drag.
Most of these oil additive demos show spinning gears in a
plexiglass front case. And claim better lubrication due to a
thicker oil film on the top gear. That just adds pumping losses
to squeeze more and thicker oil out from between the gears.
Running a shaft in a plain sleeve bearing uses a wedge of
oil for the shaft to ride on. Thick oil requires a wider clearance.
New high efficiency engines using 0W-20 oil use closer
bearing clearances to hold the wedge.
Backyard engineering with a thick oil in a narrow clearance
bearing or thin oil in a wide clearance bearing. Will contribute
to earlier bearing failure than normal.
As for an additive that reduces parasitic drag in what we
assume is a sleeve bearing application. And to reduce viscous
drag ? Sorry but I don't see a miracle in a bottle gaining very
much.
About the only miracles in a bottle that works is stop leak to
limp a machine home to the shop.
A seal swelling agent to reduce old age/high hours seal
leakage And a viscosity increaser to improve oil pressure in
worn wide clearance bearings. Both of those are just to limp
an old machine along.
There are cooling system additives that restore corrosion
inhibitor . Should be more of that stuff used.
IPA fuel addive to absorb water without ruining plastic and
rubber.
Other than those five applications. A miracle in a can is a
feel good placebo.
If you feel the need to continue with the project. Using a 12V blower motor from a vehicle would a good place to start.
front what the project was and saved much conjecture.
Going to a lower viscosity oil as in running 50wt then using
10wt would show a reduction in pumping losses and viscous
drag.
Most of these oil additive demos show spinning gears in a
plexiglass front case. And claim better lubrication due to a
thicker oil film on the top gear. That just adds pumping losses
to squeeze more and thicker oil out from between the gears.
Running a shaft in a plain sleeve bearing uses a wedge of
oil for the shaft to ride on. Thick oil requires a wider clearance.
New high efficiency engines using 0W-20 oil use closer
bearing clearances to hold the wedge.
Backyard engineering with a thick oil in a narrow clearance
bearing or thin oil in a wide clearance bearing. Will contribute
to earlier bearing failure than normal.
As for an additive that reduces parasitic drag in what we
assume is a sleeve bearing application. And to reduce viscous
drag ? Sorry but I don't see a miracle in a bottle gaining very
much.
About the only miracles in a bottle that works is stop leak to
limp a machine home to the shop.
A seal swelling agent to reduce old age/high hours seal
leakage And a viscosity increaser to improve oil pressure in
worn wide clearance bearings. Both of those are just to limp
an old machine along.
There are cooling system additives that restore corrosion
inhibitor . Should be more of that stuff used.
IPA fuel addive to absorb water without ruining plastic and
rubber.
Other than those five applications. A miracle in a can is a
feel good placebo.
If you feel the need to continue with the project. Using a 12V blower motor from a vehicle would a good place to start.
Indiana Ken
Well-known Member
In the event that the additive is to reduce friction in an engine you will want to insure the oil viscosity is the same before and after the additive is added. It is good to keep in mind the measure of "friction for the oil" is viscosity.
Lower viscosity oil tends to have less friction losses when run in an engine, with proper bearing clearances, than the thicker higher viscosity oils. Just look at the labels on a quart of oil - you will not find an energy saving label on a 50 wt oil.
In other words adding kerosene will lower an oils viscosity and very likely show a HP increase on a dyno test.
To compare the viscosity of two oil samples simply take a container (plastic baby bottle) and drill a small hole (1/16 to 3/32) in the bottom. Fill the bottle with the oil you wish to test and measure the time in seconds it takes for given volume to drain out. Repeat with the other sample. Note - the two samples must be at the exact identical temperature. Good Luck.
I ran the Gulf Oil R&D labs for a number of years. We had many analytical rigs and several automotive rigs. There we used engines, but we never actually measured electric motor draw. I now have a client who came to me with an additive that does well on the automotive side and we are wanting to test it for other applications. I no longer have acess to an FZG gear rig, so I am forced to rethink the approach. Thanks much. By the way what is your background?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Farmer, firefighter, bar doorman, licensed IBEW industrial
electrician, college grad in electrical , radiation protection
green badge, stage actor , professional tall tale teller and a
nuclear control tech.
electrician, college grad in electrical , radiation protection
green badge, stage actor , professional tall tale teller and a
nuclear control tech.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I've shot six bull moose.
After the elation of dropping such a monsterous
animal about the weight of a market steer with
huge horns. The reality sinks in of how to move it
from a swamp without heavy equipment.
There is much talk of long range artilary to
drop a moose. Two were around 200yards, two at 75-
100 yards. One at 40 yards. One snuck up behind me
and was breathing down my neck. Dropped him 360
inches away.
Two were close enough to access with a pickup
and a long rope. Two were hoised to tree nearby,
field dressed, quartered and carried to the boat.
Two were dropped close enough to water to roll
them into deep water and float them back to camp
and a sturdy tree.
After the elation of dropping such a monsterous
animal about the weight of a market steer with
huge horns. The reality sinks in of how to move it
from a swamp without heavy equipment.
There is much talk of long range artilary to
drop a moose. Two were around 200yards, two at 75-
100 yards. One at 40 yards. One snuck up behind me
and was breathing down my neck. Dropped him 360
inches away.
Two were close enough to access with a pickup
and a long rope. Two were hoised to tree nearby,
field dressed, quartered and carried to the boat.
Two were dropped close enough to water to roll
them into deep water and float them back to camp
and a sturdy tree.
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