What would you do? Opinions please

As some of you know my father lost out in farming and went belly up in 2011.He lost his land to the local bank which they sold and collected what he owed them.He also owed another bank(not local)a chunk of money on equipment and operating loans that he couldn't pay.One of the pieces of equipment on this loan is the 9700 Ford tractor that my grandaddy bought new in 1977.It is sitting in a friends field with a rod hanging out the block.The tractor is far from perfect but it was my grandaddys and I would like to try to buy it.Heres the problem,In 2011 my father called the bank to let them know he couldn't pay and they may want to come get the equipment to sell to pay part of the loan back because he was probably going to have to file bankrupcy.I thought they would come get the tractor and maybe I could buy it from them or from an auction they take it to but so far that hasn't happened.To this day he hasn't heard one word from this bank and the tractor sits in the field just wasting away while I wait on thier next move.I don't really want to be the first to contact them because I don't want to re stir the fire for my father(He has been through enough already)but I hate to see the tractor just waste away.How long do I wait.Recon they wrote it off?What would you do?

If the tractor is visable from the road you might have someone else inquire about the tractor. It would probably go better to have a someone other than family take an interest in the tractor. If they get the idea it has sentimental value the price is likely to double.

iD JUST DRAG IT ON A ROLLBACK SOME EARLY Sunday MORNIN,and put it somewhere far away and fix it.Chances are it'll be completely forgot about and it would cost them far more to haul it to the scrapper than they;d ever get for it.Do ya have any friends with winch trucks who could make them a scrap offer on it,then pay him to go get it and bring it to your house?

I would check to see if a lien has been recorded against the tractor. How this would have been done would depend on your state, but in many states the lender will file a UCC lien with the county clerk. You can find more information by googling "ucc lien" and the name of your state. You'll want to check for liens in the name of any family members who might have used the tractor for collateral, not just your father and grandfather.

What you don't want to do is to sink several grand into the tractor, just to have the bank come and get it once it's running. Banks "write off" bad debts, but they don't write off liens. If a lien is recorded against the tractor, you must get it released before you spend one nickel on the beast. It's quite possible that, knowing the condition of the tractor, the bank would be willing to release the lien for a nominal payment, but that's totally up to the bank.

Now, if there's no lien recorded against the tractor, then possession is 90 percent of the law. Maybe even 100 percent. With no recorded lien, the bank has no more right to the tractor than someone driving past it on the road.

You don't say if your father ever declared bankruptcy, or if he intends to do so. If he filed bankruptcy, then the tractor should have been part of his assets to be disposed of by the court. If he declares bankruptcy in the near future, giving the tractor to you (or the bank) could be considered concealing assets, and the court could come after the tractor.

IANAL, so this advice is of course worth exactly what you paid. Good luck.

I would get it moved to your property and then start checking on what you need to do to take ownership before you spend any money on repairs. If it is on your property you can at least prevent any further damage to the tractor. If you are unable to take ownership all you will be out is the towing charge.

Mark

Ask your Father if he used this tractor to borrow money on the failed loans, due to the age of this tractor the bank may not figure it has any value now.

How good of a 'friend' is it that owns the land
the tractor sits on? If not so good he may try to claim it or if he's a very good friend he can help you get it from the bank.He can charge a reasonable amount of storage fee for every day its sat on his property probably $5/day anyway and then the bank will have to pay him off before its moved which after time the storage bill will be more than the tractor value.You and your friend may have to settle somewhere in between with the bank but I expexct you'd end up with the tractor.

The banks likely has no interest in it. They have so many other issues than a 1977 tractor running or not.

The advice to check for a lien is a good one. If no lien just claim it.

If it ever comes up submit a bill for storage that must be pd before you release it. Storage would include routine maint and repair bills as you don't allow non running junk in your yard.

I'm basing this opinion on abandoned boats and rv's left in my storage lot. Some had bank liens that were released to me in lieu of storage charges. Some banks pd the storage fee and came and got the equipment. Some I never heard from and just kept or sold the trailer. Storage fee's still accruing of course.

I believe it is all based on what the bankruptcy court decides.

Your father needs to file a chapter 7 bankruptcy. IF he does not and just lets the old non paid loans stay out there they can come back in the years to come and make him pay them. The bank more than likely has a second mortgage on all of his property. Most banks have a uniform lean on all equipment and real property.

Like some other have stated. Get the tractor on your property. On the so called friends it can be pickup at anytime without any warning. At least if it is on yours they have to give you notice. Now that notice can be a truck with a sheriff deputy to pick it up. So you need to be able to move fast if that happens.

You would need to know what the original loan papers stated the banks held as collateral. Also if your Dad later signed any changes to the original papers.

I then would go to that bank if they seem to have a lien on the tractor. Have an appraised value on the tractor in its current condition. I would pay a reputable local dealer to write one up for you. I would also take some pictures with you. When they see that it is non running they should jump at a chance to get a reasonable salvage out of it without any recovery cost. Now do not get stupid and offer them a super low amount. Like $200 dollars or some thing. That could mess the deal up. They then could round it all of and sell it in anyway they want.

BE straight and honest and they should be relatively easy to work with. Try to get cute and they can bury you with much better lawyers that are used to collection these kind of debts.

Some of the subjections on here have been laughable. PLAY IT STRAIGHT and things usually work better.

I had a neighbor who was notorious for taking out loans on equipment that didn't work, or was incomplete, etc. After about twenty years of this he finally defaulted on a bunch of notes at one bank. I remember talking to one nice young man who, after looking at the collateral, just shook his head and left, never to be seen again.

He was looking for a hay baler and a couple of tractors, had a list of serial numbers. I helped him move some pieces of scrap out of the way and we found the numbers on some frames in the pile. He took some pictures and said he had better things to do. The pile of scrap is still there after another twenty years.

I'd move it quietly and put somewhere where it won't be noticed right away.possession is 9/10 of the law.

was the 9700 listed on the equipment that was collateral? has the bank already taken some of the eqpt that was mortgaged?
i guess i would contact the bank that has the lien and explain the situation. its unlikely that a 9700 with a hole in the block would fetch anything more than x$$/ton, family or not. (might depend on how much the events have upset the bank's case manager.) if it costs a little more than scrap price, so be it. i would think the bank has many more important (to them) things to collect on.
the last thing i would do is to haul it off in the dead of night. i'm sure you don't need the obvious problems doing that could bring.
i bought a farm that the bank had repossessed. the bank took all the machinery they felt had any value and told what was left was mine.

I thought you were on here a week or two ago questioning other peoples morals because they tried to make an honest dollar and now your advising someone to steal a tractor and to have his father file chapter 7 to ensure he relieves himself of all responsibility regarding debts he incurrred in good faith, unbelievable.

I'd start with what MarkB said. Back in the 80s when everything was falling apart everywhere the jockeys wouldn't touch this stuff til they went to the court house to see if there was a lien on things.

Unless your dad or you know for sure (have notification) that the tractor has a legal lien (either by bank or it's listed in a bankruptcy equipment list as an asset) then your dad still owns the tractor. Buy the tractor from your dad for a fair price and get a bill of sale from him. Document the condition of the tractor - photos etc. before moving it or fixing it. Then it's yours and you've acted in good faith.

You can have your dad hold the money in trust if you're still concerned.

"Some of the subjections on here have been laughable. "

Speaking of laughable "subjections......

LAA You are wrong.

1) The father is dead broke and has already gone under. It sounds like the first mortgage holder has already sold the farm ground out. He has very few if any assets left. So the only recourse is bankruptcy for him. HE already is broke. Unless he wants to be paying the second mortgage hold out of his Social Security checks he needs to clean the slate now.

2) The tractor sounds like it is being hid now. I told the son to get it off the friend's property and then check to see if there is a lien on it. THEN HE needs to go to that bank and make them a fair market offer on the tractor. If there is no lien then he can pay his father the value.


I am not telling either of them to do anything that is immoral or illegal.

The father is done financially. We do not have debtor prisons here. That is why we have bankruptcy laws. The father needs to settle the current issues the best he can. That is all he can do. Then he needs to start over again. IF he gets in good shape in the future he can always go back and settle the shortage if he wants too.

The son would more than likely give the bank more than anyone else would for a Ford 9700 with a bad motor. Plus the bank would not have to pay to have it hauled somewhere to be sold.

JDSeller is exactly right. It is most likely listed as collateral. Dispositions take time. It is not worth much. It would be good to have it where it can be monitored, but don't spend anything on it until you get the lien cleared!! A friend took a 4455 and a chopper from my neighbors farm after they sold out and lost interest, but he made official inquiries into it, and pursued it, and negotiated. It took probably better than a year but he finally got them for a reasonable price, and used them during the interim with the lien holders blessing.

Hey guys,Thanks for all the replies!I knew I would get some good info from this site.My father has not filed bankrupcy and probably wont unless he is forced to.He is not trying to beat anybody out of anything and is just a 62 year old farmer that has lost everything that he has worked for over the years due to several drought disaster years with no irrigation and a mountain of debt that he was trying to battle.The "friend" in this situation is very close and would never try to gain ownership through a shady storage deal.He actually had the tractor borrowed when the motor gave up.I have my own truck and lowboy and the tractor is less than 5 miles from home so moving pronto may be my first step.Then I may check for an actual filed lien on it so I will know what to do next.My dad doesnt want to file bankrupcy but he is at the stage now that he has lost pretty much everything but family so thats all that matters to him anymore.

Dead on, JD. You advised Haley do what is legal and ethical, and you said his dad should take advantage of bankruptcy law same as millions of other people and corporations have done. There's no shame in that, and everyone deserves a second chance in life.

Do as MarkB described. FIRST find out if there is a lien.
Don't pick up the tractor yet. You do not own it. Your Dad might not even own it.
Other than the part about getting the tractor off the friend's property I agree wit JDS.

Intent is huge in the eyes of the law. I dont think there is a court in the land that would do a thing to you if you moved the tractor to a better storage location and protected it from weather, [b:34af84e632][i:34af84e632]and then[/i:34af84e632][/b:34af84e632] tried to become the lawful owner of the tractor. You are preserving the condition of the tractor, not "hiding it" so it wouldnt be considered theft. Remember, intent.

If you have the means, haul it home and put it in a shed to protect it. You can worry about the details of ownership, bankrupcy, the land the tractor was on has been sold and all the other things later. Like has been said, sometimes these things take time and it may even turn out that you are the only one in the world that cares about that tractor. Take it home and protect it...

Once that is done its probably best to just wait things out, although if your father hasnt filed bankrupcy you might want to buy the tractor from him and get a bill of sale. It may turn out it has a clouded title but you can worry about that later when you find out for sure if the tractor was used for a loan.

JD Seller you are wrong
Everytime someone defaults and fails to pay back a legitimate debt there is less money available in the community and eventually nationwide to loan for responsible people to expand their businesses and create jobs. In my opinion a person should make every effort clear his debts regardless if he is getting any current benefit from the loan proceeds or not. I have tractors from the 1970's and if I get in the predicment where I need to borrow money against them then what I really need to do is something different for a living. If the man mortgaged the tractor and did not pay the note and has no intention of paying the note then it belongs to the lien holder. Ethically speaking, no one other than the lien holders representative has any business touching that tractor except the person whose land it is parked on, its a simple matter to go to the bank and ask them what they intend to do with the tractor and pay for it if he wants the tractor.

Bankruptcy laws were originally intended to protect the ignorant and unsophisticated from being taken advantage of by predatory lenders. This has been extended by judicial fiat to include every person who decides not to pay for their house because it turns out to be not such a good deal to people who start ill advised businesses to people who just plain over extend without any intention of ever paying anything back. It is legal to do a lot of things that the doer would not want done onto himself.

LAA the tractor is HIS DAD's until the bank takes it back. All I am wanting to do is get the tractor back in the family's control. Then deal with the bank.

As for the father declaring bankruptcy. In the long term he and the bank will be better off to solve the problem the best they can NOW, not drag it out for years and years.

I was on a local banks loan board for many years. We had a guy that we had to foreclose on. HE mainly just hit a string of bad luck that put him under. HE refused to take bankruptcy. So he forced the bank to keep the loans open. He forfeited all the secured collateral plus sold everything else. There still is over $800,000 dollars left owed to the bank. This is the old principal amount and back interest. The loan's interest rate was a fixed rate loan from the early 1990s. It is locked in at 12%. So that is $96,000 dollars each year in interest only. HE will never be able to pay it off. Plus it is dragging him down from ever getting ahead. He pays maybe $4000-5000 on it each year out of his town job. Now the hard thing for many to understand. Since he is still making a small payment the bank can not write off the loan. So it show on their books. Every time they are audited by the FDIC they are questioned about this bad loan. It also messes up their foreclosure ratio at the FDIC. So the few dollars he sends them each year is actually costing the bank money. If they could write it off they could use that loss to off set some income for tax porpoises and then actually have more funds to re-loan.

Also the money he borrowed/lost years ago did not just disappear. Those dollars went back into the economy. HE spent them buying things or services. So they are in circulation.

As far as him mortgaging that old tractor. These days if you are borrowing general operating money you are going to sign a BLANKET mortgage on all of your personal real property and equipment. Even the 20 or fifty year old stuff.

haley -- I was not disparaging your father or yourself in my comments, I did not agree with some advice you were given. It is plain from your story that your Father was and still is doing all he can to settle his business dealings the best way that he can. I am sorry he suffered hard times and hope everything looks up for him in the future.

JD Seller -- we have widely different beliefs on the whole process from start to finish, first and foremeost, in my world, there is no such thing as an ""operating"" loan, if I can"t afford to plant a crop or buy livestock I will do something different until I can pay the inputs out of pocket, especially after many years in the business. The only debt I will incur is a mortgage for more land, with ample money down so that the land stands the full nut with no additional collateral and the purchase has to make sense from a potential production standpoint, if it won"t pay itself out in a reasonable number of years then I don"t need or want it. Debt is the cause of most peoples troubles, not the cure. Both of my sons are building their respective operations under these same pricipals that have worked for my Father, Grandfather, Uncles, Brother, cousins and myself as far back as any of us can recall.

Thanks,You did not offend me in any way and I appreciate everybodys opinion -bad or good.You are right,My father is trying to work out of his situation the best that he can and even though he knows that farming full time is over for him he still has his little garden plots and also runs a combine for me during the year and just being around this seems to keep him going.