Organic Producers

I was curious as to how you view your industry now as opposed to five or ten years ago. What I keep hearing is the prices have eroded considerably since the economy softened a few years ago. I have about ten acres that I have deliberately idled the past few years in part to rest the ground. Tough soil there so things such as vegetables are probably out of the question.

Some people are making decent money on organic on snall acreage. See if you can't get with Colin over on the 8N board.

Here in MN under a certain dollar abount it's not too well regulated. I think it's of 10K years you have to be inspected.

Rick

Went into a discount /bulk supermarket yesterday- non organic 'hot house' looking tomatoes... $9.99 a POUND! This year nearly all mine were seconds, not market quality even for funky organics. Potato patch was worse. A bad year even with decent rain. But the old Italians around here used to make a year's pay- on 3 or 4 acres of tomatoes, and and prices like in the store this week.... I could see that happening- now and then, in perfect conditions. Everything depends on everything else eh?
When you say 'tough'... are you talking about New York rocks? Wet spot? Which also seems to be a New York mixed blessing nowdays- but if you didn't do a truck farm veg thing, you aren't going to turn a buck on 'organic hay' or pasture, unless you were growing -poultry? What can you feed on 10 acres? 3 steers or 10 sheep? max. Really got to be greens or reds. Might be good mellon patch if wet and rocky??....
I would get the extension service to start earning their keep, they would do a soil sample, come up with ideas that worked in the past, and because they are tied in with the organic and 'family budget' organizations, they will want to see you make it into something usefull to you and their freinds, so don't shy away like most of the state does...

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!! a pound.sense my astonishment, I cringe at $3.49 a kilogram.But I am a buyer so want them for a tad over nothing.Typical, isn"t it.?

Working on updating degree in crop science @ this time. I've been reading studies on ROI/profitability for organic vs conventional crops for a paper I need to write. Organic production cost is higher per unit produced, less yields typically, demand seems to have peaked for the time being. Conventional crops have remained steady for cost of production of late, yields steady to higher, demand steady. Cost of land is virtually the same between the two. All facts considered, conventional has definate edge in profitability/ROI. Markets do vary with regions. Organic is favored slightly in high income areas. Less popular in middle/low income areas. USDA and FDA studies show food related illness slightly more likely with organic. Numbers show conventional to be cheaper, more abundant, easier to find, and safer.

I'm organic because conventional did not work. Yields never got any better, quality was in the tank and before you tell me I am a rotten manager, not so. Tested soils, fertilize to specs, chose inputs carefully and sprayed as per directions. Manure analyed, ground tiled, decent machinery. If the conventional people want to hurl away their money on inputs, go ahead, GMO's are a sucker bet. I did and do work with over 200 farmers a year and all of them complain of too much spent on inputs. Do the math. Start with 200 bushel corn. Subtract fertilizer costs, then herbicide costs, then drying costs, then elevation costs,then technology fees and outrageous seed prices. Get ready to ride a scuffler and put a decent rotation in place and see where YOUR numbers go. A good farm er is a good farmer whether conventional or organic. I made my choice and am quite content with it.

Safe bet you don't have NEAR the storage cost, not near the hauling cost, ect... Low yields will do that. It's quicker and easier to count your chips at the end of the game if there aren't so many there to count.

For the record, I've had the best 4 years of my career over the previous 4 seasons, in terms of bottom line, by using the latest technology I can get my hands on. This season is looking to be 5 good years in a row, even with drought and heat. Highest input cost, yes, Highest return on investment yes. Highest bottom line DEFINATELY yes.

You have to be smart enough to do something with todays technology before it will work. Otherwise, you probably are better off doing things the cheapest way you can. Low investment is low risk, low risk is low return. The knowledge is readily available, just a matter of having the good sense to apply that knowledge. Those who don't grasp the concept call it luck, or talk about it being a bad bet.

Organic is a niche market that has its place but if we where required to grow all the crops that way there would be a lot of hungry people and a bunch more soil down the river.

There seems to be several types in the organic farming business.

1) The guys losing money in conventional crops that see the high organic prices and jump on the wagon. These type usually fail because too many times they where poor managers in conventional framing. Organic requires you to be a better manager than even conventional so the bad managers soon fail completely when they go organic. Grow real big organic WEEDS LOL.

2) Those that treat organic like it is a religion. These type are real zealots and are real hard to take much of what they claim as truth. Usually have outside financial backing to make the thing work. They are almost never economically viable without the outside help. Kind of todays hippies.

3) The most successful ones have some common traits. They usually where real good managers when they where in conventional farming. They have good producing ground. Poor ground will kill you in organic farming real quick. They also usually have livestock in their operation. The organic dairy guys seem to do pretty well compared to the guys trying to just row crop grain farm. Have a fellow that is growing organic pork. He is really struggling because of high feed costs and the dry weather.

So you do what you want as far as what you do. I am not going to use it on my farm. I will use the newest technology I can prove economically feasible. The GMO corn and soybeans stood the drought this year much better than the crops we had in 1988.

I always spell it 'definately' too. Can't break the habit. But spell check keeps telling me its 'definitely'. Don't know if I believe it or not though, maybe you and I are the only ones spelling it right.

Good post by the way.

And I've been wanting to ask someone that is in the know, if you don't mind. What would you think is the best way to farm 200 acres of pretty good bottom, 50 acres of so so, with another 3 or 400 acres of prairie? My family has been running a cow/calf operation, about 40 mommas I think. Sell a little corn when there's extra and some beans. Have custom hayed in the past. Grandad passed a few years ago, and the uncle that stayed doesn't know what to do to be more profitable, if there is a way on that little ground. Old/smaller equipment, an 826 and 706. Anything you've heard of that we could look into? We've looked into grapes and other specialty crops. Truck farming probably wouldn't work since we're so far from a large metropolitan area. This is SE Kansas by the way. Just keeping on the way we have doesn't seem smart or right. I know it's the same problem many have, but the uncles and aunts have a little money and are open to trying something. Any brief thoughts you might have are appreciated.

Brian

Anything that requires a change in direction from past farming techniques will require some further investment. That's the nature of farming in this day and age. Farming on an extremely low budget nets low return. It's less risk to stand at a drive up window and hand out fries, and just about as financially rewarding. If you have the cash, and you aren't rushed to make a return on investment, there are opportunities, but again, they require a plan. You might try contacting local Ag extension office for their LOCALIZED info and input. They know what's hot in your immediate area.

Unless you have ample cash to bankroll the operation, I'm in the "lease it out to someone else" camp. Otherwise, prepare yourself for VERY long hours that net little more than a sense of satisfaction (if that happens...)

My personal observation has been, farming is only successful if it is your passion and only if you have a long term plan/goal. A workable long term plan doesn't materialize over night. Look at a short term lease with someone else, then leave yourself the opportunity to create a plan of your own. Find a successful farmer to lease the ground, and work with him. Watch, listen and learn. Just my opinion...based on what I've read in your comment.

I'm not organic, but I am cheap. So we don't buy in fertilizer, much less organic fertilizers. We use a rotation and I'm going to OP corn. I don't care if the yield is less, seed corn prices are pure rape.

Yep an clear number two Organic farmer:

"2) Those that treat organic like it is a religion. These type are real zealots and are real hard to take much of what they claim as truth."

I should have added that they attack anyone that is not a "convert' to their "correct" religion".


Then traditional farmers claim:

"I'm sure in your small circle of fellow Industrial Ag farmers you don't meet many people interested in organics or organic farming."

Well that is BS. The farmer right across the road is an 100 cow organic diary operation. I have know the man since birth. He just about bankrupted the farm when he switched to organic. In the ten years since he has gotten back to even. He has much of the same financial problems he had in conventional farming. There just are different causes in organic. Mainly that the market dropped to less than half when the economy tanked in 2008. It has recovered some but not back to what it was.

Also until three years ago I was on my bank's AG loan board. We helped start over ten different organic farmers. Most of these where switching over from regular production practices. So these where not beginning farmers. They produced just about anything that we grow here in North-east Iowa. Including a grape/wine producer. There are two that made it: The grape guy and the dairy across from me. Some, 4-5 of the others went bankrupt. The others went back to conventional farming.

So I know quite a bit about "organic" farming. I also still say it is a niche market. So Like I said do what you want. Beat me in production/profit and be happy but DO NOT try to force your views on me.

I have seen several people who went organic. They were all recacting to milk prices with a heavy debt load when they did. All failed. If one wants to go organic several things need to be looked at.

Markets: Good, bad or steady?

Crops: Fertilizer? If you don't have livestock you have to buy organic stuff at very high prices or put up with lower yealds.

Laws: You can't just switch over. Last I knew for sure here in MN you have to prove that your crop land has been cehimical free for 2 years. Any crops raised in that 2 years cannot be feed to organic livestock.

Money: You have to have a credit line or enough money to carry you over for the time needed to switch.

Management: If you are not a good manager in conventional farming you are not going to improve just cause you changed over to organic.

Rick

Difference is my tax dollars go to support your operation so I can have my say but I never take farm welfare so I'm my own man.

Traditional Farmer: How does your tax dollars go to support me??? IF you have read my post over the years you would have seen that I have never taken a single dime of government money/payments.

I guess the crop insurance is backed by the government but I have only drawn twice in the 32 years I have carried it. The total of the premiums I have paid are four times what I have drawn.

So I am my "own man" too. Like I said go grow your crop however you want to. Just let me do the same.

The worlds population needs food. The organic guys could never grow enough to feed them. A starving person in Africa does not care if it is GMO or organic but the organic/tree huggers have pushed many of the governments to ban GMO crops in the countries that would have huge benefits from them.

The topic brings out passion on both sides apparently.

I farm both ways. The orgainic produce goes to my family and friends and the conventional goes to normal market. But sometimes you just have to buy whats available at the store.

In Texas, you have to have a pesticide license to use the chemicals necessary to control weeds so I have some understanding of the danger of them. It is just a personal preference that I do not want someone I love to injest food treated with that kind of chemical where I have to suit up in a chemical resisitent suite, wear a breather mask and then triple rinse the container to avoid contamination.

Without fertilyzer, it is difficult to sustain yields necessary to make a profit after land costs, fuel, equipment investments and labor so going organic is not for the novice.

If you can find a market for organic, it will most likely be a niche market since other products can be bought cheaper. Those that do (even if they are hippies, zealots or religious) will gladly pay the additional costs to obtain that organic food, the rest just wants the food to be available and reasonable.

JMHO

(quoted from post at 21:07:16 12/02/12) Traditional Farmer: How does your tax dollars go to support me??? IF you have read my post over the years you would have seen that I have never taken a single dime of government money/payments.

I guess the crop insurance is backed by the government but I have only drawn twice in the 32 years I have carried it. The total of the premiums I have paid are four times what I have drawn.

So I am my "own man" too. Like I said go grow your crop however you want to. Just let me do the same.

The worlds population needs food. The organic guys could never grow enough to feed them. A starving person in Africa does not care if it is GMO or organic but the organic/tree huggers have pushed many of the governments to ban GMO crops in the countries that would have huge benefits from them.

Click to expand...

The thing is JD we don't feed the rest of the world. Heck we import food from Canada, Sount America and other places. If we could get the Africans to stop killing each other long enough to farm they could feed themselves.

And yea we could have most operations go over to organic and at least feed ourselves if CRP went away and every farm had enough livestock to put manure down. But farming the way we are in specialized farms where one is chickens and another grain makes the chemicals needed. You do have to put something back into the soil. We choose to use chemicals for weed control but there are ways around that but most farmers would not stand still for the crop loss and extra fuel needed to do that. I myself am using some chemicals but try to keep that at a minumum.

As far as I'm concerned school is still out on the GMO stuff. No one has proven 100% it's safe and no one has been able to show 100% it isn't safe. I'd rather my grand kids ate stuff I know for sure is 100% safe for the time being.

Rick
Rick