Author	[Modern View]
Greg K 11-11-2012 06:06:27 75.104.160.54 Report to Moderator	Our local fire dept is deciding to try to build a new fire hall. We have some blueprints of another departments from when they built their hall. The blueprints show a tube type radient heat that hangs from the ceiling. I have been around these some and like the job they do. I also have been impressed with the in floor radient heat. Which one is more efficient to run? This is located in northern NE where the temps usually don't get much below -10 to -15, however I have seen it at -25 but that is pretty uncommon. We are probably going to use propane to heat, and we don't get a lot of calls so the doors would not be opened much in the winter anyways. [Reply]   [No Email]
JimEvans 11-12-2012 16:25:26 66.185.0.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   I am on my second shop with tube heaters in the ceiling. They are great. Probably not as nice as in floor heat, but almost as good and a lot cheaper. People are forgetting that the radiant tube heaters also heat the floor. The concrete is warm enough to work on and you can work in short sleeves when the thermometer on the wall says 50 degrees. Yes, it can get warm directly under the heater when it is on. It is also hotter on the burner end. But once the concrete is warmed up, it feels pretty even all over the shop.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bodyman 11-11-2012 17:38:08 206.72.3.69 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Greg, It is my opionion, having worked in a bodyshop in north central Iowa (with hot water heat in the floor) " It"s the only way to go for your application " It is Sooooo nice to come in from temps of zero to -25 or worse. Once inside you begin to warm quite quickly as you walk around or better yet have to lie on the floor to work on a vehicle or piece of equipment. Also snow covered equipment brought in for the night will be melted clear and floor most likely dry as well by morning. As to the post of feet getting too hot..they must have the thermostat set quite high ? Also as you mentioned about doors being opened, unless they are left open rather than closing as soon as possible, that has nearly no effect as the floor is one giant radiator. Just my opinion but it is a no lose situation.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Adirondack case guy 11-11-2012 15:01:26 74.69.160.79 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Greg, You can't beat radiant floor heat. when you back trucks in after a call the snow, water and crap drips off them and dries up on the floor. The trucks asorb the heat coming up from the floor and are always warm, Also If you have a high ceiling the heat does not go to the ceiling as long as you don't move it with ceiling fans. The downfall to Radiant floor heat is POOR construction methods, and improper insulation materials. (1) the sub grade HAS TO BE PROPERLY COMPACTED. (2)It HAS TO BE DEAD ON SMOOTH, no humps or dives if 2" construction grade insulation is used, (it will bridge) BUT I DO NOT recomend styrofoam under floors where "heavy point loads" are involved. (A fully loaded tanker, or town plow truck fully loaded and setting on 2-3 axles, will exert some massive weight to a very small area of floor. You need at least 6" of concrete reinforced with #4 rebar criscrossed 16'" OC and 3/16' mesh set on "chairs" holding the bar and mesh with attached 7/8" radiant tubing in the middle of the crete, not under it. I recomend insulating blankets with vapor barier under these floors, as it is not as prone to colapse under heavy loads. Be sure to insulate the building perimiter to a minimum depth of 2'vertically, and also horizontally just under the external ground surface and be sure to place a thermo barrier up to floor surface grade at all doors. Where you have big overhead doors place radiant tubing much closer in front of them. Also BE SURE you dig a haunch under, and add extra reinforcement under and around floor drains in floor as this area is always weak, due to the open area. If and when you want to supplement your heating unit with Solar,/ storage tanks, and posibly a wood gasser boiler you can very easily do it, if you initially plumb in supply and return ports caped off. This is no BS, I was a comercial builder and have worked with and certified as an installer for companies such as Radientec, Sun Max Solar, and ProFab Wood boilers, Baxi, and others. Loren, the Acg   [Reply]  [No Email]
Greg K 11-11-2012 17:06:12 75.104.160.54 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Adirondack case guy, 11-11-2012 15:01:26   There is some good useful info, especially the part about more concrete around floor drains and such. I forgot about the vertical insulation that is needed too.   [Reply]  [No Email]
David G 11-11-2012 13:54:12 205.215.206.18 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   I have infloor and love it. The big advantage is that the floor always stays dry and it is warm to lay on it.   [Reply]  [No Email]
wisbaker 11-11-2012 13:35:07 207.118.181.192 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Heat is transferred 3 ways convection, conduction and radiation. Convection is hot air, also known in the industry as scorched air. You heat the air and the warm air warms you and the stuff in the building. Conduction- you touch something warm and it makes you warm, not practical for building heating. The last is radiant, with the tubes in the ceiling actually throw off infra red waves and what ever is in the way of the waves gets warmed except for the air, you heat objects not air. In floor radiant again you warm the floor and everything else follows. My shop has in floor radiant I love it. It's 24x30 in Northern Wisconsin and a 60,000 btu water heater keeps it warm, as others have said the shop set at 50 is more comfortable than a forced air unit set at 65. Advantage of in floor radiant- you can run at a lower temperature and still be comfortable, equipment gets warmed fairly quick, the Wheel Horse & blower get thawed out and dried off quick, fairly efficient and if you're so inclined it's easy to multi-fuel with a solar system, a waste oil boiler or biomass boiler (wood or fat) or store/bank heat in something like a big water tank. IR tubes in the ceiling are also efficient, act on the equipment (will thaw and dry your trucks quickly after a bad winter night response) but don't do well on different fuels except maybe natural/lp gas. Downside on radiant is if you want Air Conditioning you have to have a convection system for cooling. Although if you're in Nebraska you might be able to use evaporative cooling, not something we can do in Wisconsin. As for the comment on the radiant tubes in the ceiling, yes hot air will rise, but the tubes aren't heating air, they produce infra red waves that travel through the air until they hit something and the heat goes into what they hit, not the air, as the floor or truck gets warm it will reflect some heat back into the air but most of you heat energy is going into "things" like trucks, tractors, floors, walls and people.   [Reply]  [No Email]
dave2 11-11-2012 11:43:06 79.240.129.120 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to showcrop, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see exactly......... how you heat the makes no difference... for example, electric here costs less at night (almost half).... so, if you used electric, you could set it so it heated at night and the buffer tanks carried over the high tariff time.. A lot of the stand alone solar setups have an electric element in the tank also set at whatever temp, if the solar keeps up, you use no electric...   [Reply]  [No Email]
dave2 11-11-2012 09:37:35 79.240.129.120 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to pete black, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see them that know the least, know it the loudest........ thing about floor heat is, you are comfortable at a lower temperature... Guess the radiant heat ain't common enough yet to get past the bubba logic.... Best bet is to get away from the experts here and google up a couple forums related to that type of heat..... heat rises, so why anyone would put a heater on the ceiling is a real headscratcher........   [Reply]  [No Email]
Greg K 11-11-2012 13:07:05 75.105.32.39 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to dave2, 11-11-2012 09:37:35   LOL I like how that starts off. I sure warnt planning on going in with the "I know a guy who knows a guy" routine, just looking for ideas and places to start. Part of the problem would be the initial money, another part is everyone has seen the tube heaters and are comfortable with them. I gotta go with the logic about the heat rising though.   [Reply]  [No Email]
MSD 11-11-2012 08:50:39 67.4.60.56 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   My son worked in a large heated truck repair shop for a couple years. He didn't like the in floor heat they had because he said his feet got to hot all the time. They kept it turned up to keep the building warm.   [Reply]  [No Email]
George Marsh 11-11-2012 08:42:44 50.104.246.0 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   In floor heat is nice, but it will require a boiler, not 100& eff., pumps and you will have to run it all the time. Then down the road, there is the potential of a leak in the floor too, not to mention pumps going out, boil repairs. The porpane tube heat is 100% efficiency. No heat goes up a chimney, no blowers, pumps, very little maintance, quick recovery time, which floor heat doesn't recover fast. Check out the cost of installation, bet radiant tube heat is cheaper it install.   [Reply]  [No Email]
John B. 11-11-2012 08:14:21 38.114.64.174 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   I have worked in shops for 30 years that have had both in floor and above floor heat. I prefer the in-floor over any other kind of heat. After the door has been opened and reclosed heat recovers much faster. If the floor gets wet it dries much quicker, also there is no cold spots in the building with in-floor heat. Your floor is a giant heating pad. All the new shops in our area are installing in floor heat. Like it was mentioned in the one post before me. Above floor radiant heaters can be pretty hot if you're on top of a vehicle and just a few feet away from the heater. I don't think this would be good for your fire equipment either. Just my thought.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Lazy WP 11-11-2012 07:56:53 184.63.77.143 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Our department went with the radiant tube. For the most part it is truck storage, until there is a fire, or our monthly meeting. I can't remember the size we built, but we have room for 3 grass rigs, plus a 6X6 in it. Then there is room for a meeting area, plus the lockers. Kinda seems like maybe 60X60, anyway here in Nebraska, on propane, we figure it takes just over 40 bucks a month to heat in the winter.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Greg K 11-11-2012 08:53:58 75.105.32.39 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Lazy WP, 11-11-2012 07:56:53   Sounds like your departments needs are similar to mine, mostly grass fires with a couple, structure fires(mostly mutual aid to other departments). I realize initial cost is much more with in floor, but didn't know about operating costs, or other issues.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Yukon3639 11-11-2012 07:55:38 70.192.14.224 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to huntingreen2day, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see We use the tubes in our equipment repair shop and love them. The only drawback is if you are on top of a truck within six feet of the tubes the heat can become unbearable. The best part is when one brings in a 25 ton ice cube that's been sitting outside it does not bring the shop down. By am the machine is room temp.   [Reply]  [No Email]
ss55 11-11-2012 07:49:24 50.81.68.105 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   You may want to talk to several heating contractors to find out what works well in your area for your intended use. Forced air and hanging radiant heaters can warm the air in a building quickly. In-floor heat is slow to change the temperature in a building because the concrete floor must be warmed first before the building warms. How do you intend to use the building? Will it be occupied 24 hours a day so it can stay at a constant temperature, then in-floor heat is fine. If the building is unoccupied for long periods of time you can reduce heating costs by reducing the building temperatures when it is not in use. Then hanging radiant heaters will be better because the building can be warmed up much more quickly. Timers can be used to warm the building in advance for regularly scheduled meetings and training excercises. The heaters could be programmed into the fire alarm system to kick the heat on when a fire alarm is activated. If you do maintain a constant temperature extra insulation will pay in the long run. Big roll-up doors with big windows are hard to insulate.   [Reply]  [No Email]
rrlund 11-11-2012 07:12:49 207.241.137.116 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   Find my post from a few days ago titled "The Swedes are here". He has both floor and radiator type.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Greg K 11-11-2012 07:45:10 75.107.96.58 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to rrlund, 11-11-2012 07:12:49   Yes I did read that one and was very interested. One problem is convincing everyone else that it is a good idea! Just like the responses to your post not everyone is a believer.   [Reply]  [No Email]
rrlund 11-11-2012 11:28:42 207.241.137.116 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 07:45:10   True,but that system isn't a one of a kind. Pretty common over there. I'd think at the very least we could benefit from the solar panels and the water storage tanks here,even without the boiler to suplement it.   [Reply]  [No Email]
massey 333 11-12-2012 13:12:35 209.173.189.232 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to rrlund, 11-11-2012 11:28:42   rrlunI picked on that system from the wrong angle.The storage tank deal-idea is a very good way of working.I have had one since 1981,but had to fly blindly because of no info and thus mistakes were made along the way.His boiler sizing to me was the problem for much of a heat loss load.As far as the fire dept.question,tubes in floor with overhead zoned hot water heaters as quick warm up backups if needed.   [Reply]  [No Email]
mosinee dave 11-11-2012 07:09:02 96.60.41.20 Report to Moderator	Re: Shed Heat in reply to Greg K, 11-11-2012 06:06:27   In floor heating is very good once the concrete is warmed it holds heat very well . Do your research Insulate the ground around the cocrete very well to stop cold from outside getting to it.   [Reply]  [No Email]