O.T.Poverty level?

Lou from Wi.

Well-known Member
Read the post on poverty level and what situations make up that level.Taxes ,Local as explained in some posts. LJD had the solution as how to negate poverty.Being this is a farm related(mostly)site,,I was wondering if all the farm subsidies was removed, the poverty level in numbers would JUMP Dramatically.Poverty has a way of making the common man EQUAL with out reservations. Makes folks pool resources to survive, like some old timers I've met said "It Separates the wheat from the schaff."(SP).Little fly by night (so called)farmers that claim to be BTO have second jobs to make it possible to claim farm subsidies and related benefits. If the subsidies are removed, by by farms, and the BTO smoke screen disappear in a hurry.Well that just may be on the agenda for the next four years coming up. Tax money will be a major conversation in governments. HOY TO SAVE MONEY BY OMITTING these Programs ETC. JMHO, LOU.
 
poverty today is not the poverty of ole timers. poverty does not have tattos, body piercings, cell phones, large screen tvs, buggies loaded with meat, prepared food and 50 lb. bags of dog food. oh, i forgot, the red box outside the door for dvd rentals if they can swaddle over to it.
 
Can I ask you seriously how much we make in "farm subsidies"?
No matter what the hard core left and right wing talk radio say,we don't live off government handouts.
I pay three times as much in property taxes alone than I get from DCP,and DCP as ALL that I get. Woopie,I'd have to come up with a third more at property tax time. God help me! I'm gonna starve!
 
Lou I think Pete has it right. A few years ago.....like about 20, some of our esteamed politicians were shocked to learn that the average family DIDN"T eat steak 2-3 time a week and thier idea of dinning out was fast food.

These politicians (party don't matter) haven't lived in poverty so what they call poverty really isn't. Basically what poverty means to them is that you DON"T eat steak 2-3 time a week, DON'T eat out in a sit down type place 1-2 times a weeks, DON'T owe on a 250,000 or better home, DON'T have two nice, no more than 5 year old cars, shop at yard sale for kids play cloths, DON'T go on fancy vacations......well you get the idea. 40 years ago that was underprivileged not poverty.

Rick
 
several members of this site are always talking down on less fortunate people, if they are christians they have no right to judge.

the poverty level as currantly defined as a family of four earning $22,000 or less.

like to see the mouthy group try it.
 
I don't understand what you're saying Lou, "have second jobs to claim farm subsidies"? The only farm subsidies I am aware of are received through the DCP and ACRE programs and producers are only eligible based upon the base acres of each farm where they actually plant a crop. Like Randy said, in the big picture these payments are fairly insubstantial and cutting farm subsidies is not going to put anyone into poverty OR reduce the number of farmers. $4 dollar diesel fuel and 20 bushel corn will do that.
 
I'm telling you,this kind of thing hits a raw nerve with me. A hand full of nut job extremists who think FDR is still president have way too many people thinking we're on welfare out here.

So I get back about the equivelent of a third of my property taxes. I don't want to attack the person who made the original post,but that one was a complaint that he'd have to START paying property taxes.

Every study that's been done on the subject shows the same thing. For every dollar collected in property taxes on residential and commercial property,it costs $1.25 to provide services. On the other side of the coin,for every dollar collected on farm and open land,it cost's 35 cents to provide services. If my math is right,I'm still paying a third more than I owe to subsidize the rest of the residents and businesses in this county.

And as far as poverty goes,in this township,I'm chairman of the board that decides whether or not people GET poverty exemptions. I have to MAKE those decisions,not just talk about them. I KNOW there's poverty out there and people who can't pay,but the bottom line is pretty simple,if you want government services,somebody has to pay for them. Simple as that.
 
I grew up with HARD working poor parents. They always made sure that we had what we needed first. I know there were times that they did not know where the money would come from. We never took food stamps, nor handouts.

I am not faulting those that do, but I have a hard time seeing it when there is money for drugs, booze or tatoo's. If you can take care of your family without support, then think about those extras.
 
Right now - in my area . . . Government subsides for corn to produce ethanol is a big one. Tax payer supported and many in my area are doing it. None of them are what I'd call "full time" farmers. That is to say - they all have full time jobs elsewhere and so do their wives. Much of the corn they're are growing isn't even on their own lands.
 
There is no one figure to represent what is poverty in the USA. There are at least twelve different "poverty" formulas used by various divisions of the US Federal Government. The one you have cited if from the Department of Health and Human Services. There are many others with different figures.

And you say Christians cannot judge? That is bunch of hooey.
Sounds like you are working from a small part of Matthew 7.1. Read is context - it does not forbid good Christians to make judgements.

Judging is simply the process of evaluation that people employ everyday to make determinations of what is true or not true.

In Zechariah 3:7 God states that He gives those who obey Him the authority to judge, "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by."

Ever read in the Book of Judges (Old Testament)?

Everyday life requires us to make constant judgements. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with pre-judging either. It's funny how many make the word "prejudice" a bad thing. We could not survive without it. We must prejudge when we need to make decisions and have incomplete information.

I don't claim to be a good Christian. But, if I was - I'd be fine with judging and prejudging. Looking down others is a different issue.
 
I've been living at or below the poverty level for the last couple of years and if something (or someone) doesn't change in November I'll be giving up the internet come the day of inaguration as I can no longer afford it.
I know how to live and eat cheaply and I am resourceful.
Country boy can survive.
But too bad it's coming to that.
 
It starts at the Federal level at the tune of 6 billion dollars per year. I know very little about the fine details except just about anybody in my area with a tractor, planter and access to farmland had been doing it. And - I've been asked by several if they could plant on my land. It's gotten so now that no other crops are being grown because of the huge ethanol subsidy.

I know the Federal Government had been spending 6 billion dollars a year on the ethanol subsidies and that is available in any state. Right now much of that "funny" money is set to dry up in Dec, 2012. But - I'll believe that when I see it actually end.
 
Here is an idea!

Select your state and search for your name.

Yes, I am listed. I was paid to not grow crops!

I opted out of the program because I felt it wasn't right.

How many of you opted out?
Untitled URL Link
 
(quoted from post at 18:03:46 10/05/12) Can I ask you seriously how much we make in "farm subsidies"?
[b:79d6aeb744]No matter what the hard core left and right wing talk radio say,we don't live off government handouts.[/b:79d6aeb744]
I pay three times as much in property taxes alone than I get from DCP,and DCP as ALL that I get. Woopie,I'd have to come up with a third more at property tax time. God help me! I'm gonna starve!

Good,... then ALL gov farming "programs and subsidies" should be terminated completely in order to help lighten the tax burden on (all) american taxpayers.

Can you imagine how much money that would save taxpayers, simply by reducing the "gov jobs and offices" alone.
 
(quoted from post at 20:35:02 10/05/12) Here is an idea!

Select your state and search for your name.

Yes, I am listed. I was paid to not grow crops!

[b:6527983602]I opted out of the program because I felt it wasn't right.[/b:6527983602]

How many of you opted out?
Untitled URL Link

Greg,.. I think you should be commended for making that decision.

I'm 66 years old, and I've never had an acre of my ground in any type of gov program.

It's mainly a matter of pride for me, knowing I've earned every cent I've got.
 
I agree Pete, people on welfare have twice the stuff I had as a kid growing up back in the 40s and 50s.
We were a little poorer than most (but not all) of our neighbors. I did not have an indoor bathroom 'til I got married and was out on my own.
We never had even one phone. My Dad put in running water when I was about ten but only cold.
We always had a garden, raised two porkers and a calf to butcher every year and we kept the best cow for our milk and butter when my Dad gave up farming and went to work for Generous Electric in Schenectady. I'm not saying we should go back to that and it's a damned shame our current standard of living is on a backslide but compared to those days, I don't see too many people really suffering, though they may think they are.
 

Thanks Old Iron

By a few simple clicks of the mouse. It's easy to see what anyone is getting in government subsidies with this database.

I, sometimes find it ironic that these same people complain about Government Waste!
 
I think John needs to look in to this one. Limbaugh is making a fool out of him. If the government will pay me a subsidy to haul my corn to Woodbury to the ethanol plant instead of feeding it to my cattle,it's news to me.

If he's talking about the blenders credit,that ended January first and never went to the grower anyway.
 
You boys might want to put a little fact and truth behind those wads.
POKE HERE! http://www.obpa.usda.gov/budsum/FY13budsum.pdf

22% of the 2013 USDA budget actually goes to agriculture. That is if you include conservation and forestry. 16% goes to farmers and commodity programs. If you figure 16% that means if $155 billion in the USDA budget $24 billion goes to AG programs.
 
These days, if a farmer can"t make a comfortable living, he ain"t much of a farmer.
 
This is one of those........I know a guy who knows a guy,who's next door neighbors nephew's college room mate told him that he heard...........
 
sooo!!! when the farm subsidies go will social security checks also be reduced? After all its all government/taxpayer dollars. No one wants to feel the PAIN from spending cuts. Everyone wants the other guy to bear that burden. jmho gobble
 
Try two consecutive years of drought, where it doesn't matter what kind of a farmer you are, no one raises a crop. Then the price of grain and cattle really don't matter since there isn't enough return off your crop to pay your expenses and one must buy feed because there isn't enough to feed your stock. Then tell me what kind of comfortable living you have made. Get up at 3:30 am work a ten hour shift then come home and feed cattle or work ground until 9 pm and get up and do her again and tell me how the farmer is getting rich.




 
That's why here in my township,we don't just have an income guideline,but asset guidelines as well. If you have a bunch of things that you can do without,you'd better sell them and pay your property taxes.
 
EXACTLY! I sit there on Board of Review year after year listening to people carry on about how "We need the government to do this. We need the government to do that. But BY GOD don't you dare think for a minute that I'M writing the check to pay for any of it!!".
 
LOL, I thought that was funny..."and get up and do her again "

BTW, are you getting any Government subsidies?
 
No such thing as cheap food. You either pay for it through taxes (subsidies) or pay higher prices on the store shelves without them.
 
The ag govt subsidies are kinda like the minimum wage and unemployment.

If you are happy to collect them, your year ain't going so well, but the govt minumums sure help you get by until next year.

Sometimes the programs get a little out of whack, but mostly they work out to try to keep the ecconomy and food supply stable and cheap.

Just like minimum wage law and unemployment benifits are a little help, but you ain't living the good life if they are how you make your living.....

The direct payment generally just gets used up to pay hifgher rent or land prices, so it really doesn't help a farmer, it goes to widows (gals tend to outlive the guys...) and school districts and county roads (as higher tax values). So cut the Dorect Paymrent, and you all will be paying more taxes as ag land falls a little....

Be nice if a lot of subsidies for everything would be cut and we'd go back to a more practical govt, but I don't see why ag is supposed to be the only one that gets cut, energy, transportation, unions, manufaturing, and on and a=on, they all have their built in subsidies as well.

Only 20-25% of the 'Farm Budget' actually goes to farm programs, the rest is social programs like Food stamps, feeding school kids, etc. Do you really want to cut those things?

--->Paul
 
(quoted from post at 21:59:56 10/05/12) No such thing as cheap food. You either pay for it through taxes (subsidies) or pay higher prices on the store shelves without them.

I agree (somewhat), however,... everybody has some freedom of choice when it comes to [b:a355fff82e]what[/b:a355fff82e] and [b:a355fff82e]how much[/b:a355fff82e] they eat,... the same can not be said, regarding what and how much, we are [b:a355fff82e]REQUIRED[/b:a355fff82e] (by law) to pay in taxes.
 
Only 20-25% of the 'Farm Budget' actually goes to farm programs, the rest is social programs like Food stamps, feeding school kids, etc. Do you really want to cut those things?
Yes sir, I do.
I also want to cut those programs out of the military budget.
I want to return to hard working neighbors helping the other hard working
neighbors, and people being held responsible for their own actions.
Naive thinking, I know. :roll:
 
I know for a fact that ethanol is still being subsidized, Not by the feds but by the states where the plants are. How much you want to bet the states are not getting the money for that from the feds through the back door? Right now the current administration and the EPA both insist on renewable fuels. Some posted early this year about the state of IA paying out 750 million dollars to the ethanol plants in that state right after the fed money stopped. The Plant near us is getting susidized by the loacl and state governments here in MN. So it's still being subsidized just not directly from the feds.

The gov stadad for poverity is out of whack. Here there are a lot of folks with a couple of kids that are doing OK on 22 a year. But it's cheaper to live here than in a city.

Rick
 
LJD> It starts at the Federal level at the tune of 6 billion dollars per year. I know very little about the fine details except just about anybody in my area with a tractor, planter and access to farmland had been doing it. And - I've been asked by several if they could plant on my land. It's gotten so now that no other crops are being grown because of the huge ethanol subsidy.
I know the Federal Government had been spending 6 billion dollars a year on the ethanol subsidies and that is available in any state. Right now much of that "funny" money is set to dry up in Dec, 2012. But - I'll believe that when I see it actually end.





You're right, you haven't looked this up any at all.

There are no longer any subsidies for ethanol, that ended December 2011.

The 6 billion the feds spend on the 'Farm Program' less than 30% goes to farm programs. The rest goes to school lunches, whatever the food stamp program is now called, and other social welfare programs.

Of the money spent on actual farmers, many of the programs are again social justice deals, for minorities.

Very little of that 6 billion is spent on commercial grain farmers.

Most farmers need to work, or have their spouce work, a town job to get health care coverage. It is very common for a farmer to work a 'real job' these days and farm 1000 acres, that's just how it is, farming costs too much to do it on your own.

Land rent allows farmers to run enough acres to pay for the fuel, fert, and m,achinery they need to farm. It is very common in any business to rent the buildings and lease the machinery used - auto, fridge, retail, any business these days is more likely to be leasing than to own.

So - I mean this nicely - you really don't know what you are talking about, in the quote you really don't have anything right.....

I understand where you are coming from, and I don't take your put downs personally.

But if you look into it a little bit, you'll find you are about 77% wrong in what you believe. :)

And I can agree with you that we can improve things, and cut out some govt waste. :)

Just the other day I read they wqere paying $60,000 govt grant to put some art work on a old building that is falling down on main street, supposed to really help out my town of 15,000 people somehow?

If $30 an acre govt payments are too much for you to handle, are you complaining about the art grants, and the petrolium company subsidies, and the autoworker subsidies, and....

Well, you understand?

The 'Farm Bill' has anice name to it, and has a big budget associated with it, so I understand where it is easy to pick on it. But very little of it goes to farmers, and what does mostly goes to good programs to keep our food supply stable and cheap.

We can change that, ok, but you will be ending food stamps, school lunches, and boy you think food prices went up, wait until there is no safety net from the Farm Bill, food prices will _really_ jump without that!

Hope you are willing to live without yout govty gravy too tho, what is it you do again for work? Can we look at how the govt assists your proffession? Or, is that gonna be tightly guarded? :)

--->Paul
 
Any building that went up in my small town in the past 30 years has been a TIF deal, and the Ecconomic Development Association has worked with finding grants and no-intrest loans for all sorts of businesses, apartment buildings, retail, etc. They built the foundation and parkinglot for a mini-mall in town, leased that out for $1 to make it happen.

They are building a subdivision of houses, on their 6th one now of 45 plotted out. Get $4500 off, get free street upgrades if it fills up over 1/2, and get special low intrest loans.

I mentioned the art funding below, I read about $20,000 to $75,000 grants for one art project after another in the paper, and I live in small-town rural Minnesota...

Years ago the state of Georgia put together a tax grant/ reduction/ incentive to get Diamond tool company to move to their state. Shut down the plant in my state, left people out of work to chase the 'free money' in Georgia.

What business in the past 50 years has _NOT_ been heavily subsidised with local, state, and fedral tax money?

Have you heard of an auto making plant that hasn't been basically built with govt grants - including the Japaneese iones built in the south?

Is there a perto company that doesn't get huge grants for pipelines, refinery impovements, exploration grants?

But you think out of all that, USA agriculture is the one problem and all our tax problems would go away if we just axed all the money 'wasted' on USA agriculture?

Wow. :)

Good luck in life. :)

--->Paul
 
(quoted from post at 23:10:30 10/05/12)

But you think out of all that, USA agriculture is the one problem and all our tax problems would go away if we just axed all the money 'wasted' on USA agriculture?

Wow. :)

Good luck in life. :)

--->Paul

I don't think anyone has specifically said "all our tax problems would go away if we just axed all the money 'wasted' on USA agriculture" (I know I haven't).

But "cuts" need to start somewhere, in order to get this country back on track.
Some of us have already self-imposed such "cuts" upon ourselves, by refusing to get into any "farm programs" to start with.

Everything farmers like me buy, costs the same price as the farmers who ARE getting gov money.
But as I've mentioned before, it's mostly a matter of pride for me.
 
Thats not true, most government subsidies either pay to limit certain crops from being grown or pay to encourage other crop acreage to increase, in other words, a government agency is setting the market, not supply and demand. Food in general would be much cheaper across the board if subsidies ended tommorow and the markets dictated winners and losers, land prices would gradually get back in line if the free market ruled, people could not pay ridiculous prices per acre if the crops grown would not pay off. Most corporate farms and a large percentage of big operators would not be able to compete minus taxpayer assistance. People used to farm with an eye to what made sense and would pay off to grow or produce.
 
Ethanol subsidies were axed.

FSA offices were axed - the one in my county was closed in August.

The whole Farm Bill is left unpassed, not renewed - because they can't decide how much to cut.

I think ag is doing it's part????

What other segments of govt are shrinking?

I'm all for less govt, and am glad stuff is shrinking in the ag dept.

But - why only ag????

--->Paul
 
Where do you get this stuff?! If I walked in to the FSA Office Monday and told them that LAA said they were going to pay me to grow or not to grow a certain crop,they'd look at me like "come on,you know better than that".

FDR is NOT the president anymore.
 
Maybe ethanol is,in the ways you say,but the pure and simple FACT is,farmers aren't being subsidized to grow the corn that goes there,any more than they subsidize the corn that I feed to my cattle.

I can't believe how hard some people try to make absolute fools of themselves by spouting things they hear from the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Michael Polen. They have about as much business telling you anything about agriculture as I have telling you how to build a rocket to get you to the moon!
 
Actual Ethanol subsidies may be gone, but look into the Renewable Fuel Standard, a law which creates an artificially high demand and ensures that corn prices remain obscenely high. Good for the corn farmers, sux for the rest of us.

You all seem to forget it's not just grain farmers getting subsidies. How about milk supports? Mohair supports? The lamb programs? Aquaculture subsidies? Fact is that there are lots of subsidies, grants, etc. out there. True, in the big picture food stamps are a far bigger problem than farm subsidies, but it's all a problem. We need gov't pretty much out of our economy. All gov't should be doing is ensuring a more or less level playing field, no more, no less. When gov't plays ion the markets you get Solyndras, GMC, the too big to fail banks. That does no one any good.
 
I've been doing some sort of farming all my life and have never taken a dime of Farm Welfare and never will,its just like any other business if you can't make it get out and do something else.ALL farm welfare should be done away with.
 
Would you rather go back to the days when farmers really DID get price support payments because the price was below the cost of prouction? The days when USDA bought up commodities and stored them in places that were payed for by the tax payers?

All we ever wanted was a market for what we grow and we have it with ethanol. Simple as that. Growing that high priced corn has pulled acres away from other crops causing them to all be profitable to grow too. I'm fed up with people thinking we're a bunch of brainless dirty hicks with our hands out,who can't take care of ourselves without big daddy government propping us up.

Nothing would make me happier than to have the government completely out of Ag,no DCP,no ACRE,no CRP,not even subsidized insurance,which is about the ONLY thing to survive in both pending versions of the farm bill. But the plain fact is,the government doesn't pay for what the government doesn't control. You keep the government totally out of my hair and my business and you can eliminate the USDA entirely as far as I'm concerned. Freedom in exchange for loss of a third of my property taxes,I'll take that deal all day long!

Trouble is,even if they DID,there'd still be brainless idiots on talk radio and writing books claiming we were all getting rich off government money just to hear themselves and make political hay. So believe what you want to. You're gonna anyway.
 
I'm just puzzled tha you all want to get rid of one of the govt programs that is more or less working, and you aren't wanting to get rid of the one's you mention that are not working.

It's all very one-sided, get rid of agriculture, down with agriculture, but not a peep about the 98% of other govt waste....

Very odd, for being on an ag-related forum?

Myself, I think a couple parts of the actual ag programs are headed in the wrong direction, and it could be changed so the 'counter cyclical' portion of the program was the main piece that kicks in at bad times, and the rest could be scaled back or eliminated. I think the CRP where the gvt rents land for wildlife is a pretty good one, keeping land in private hands but keeping sportsmen happy and keeping poorer land used for recreation - but still available for hay & future farming if we need it.

The direct Payment goes to higher land prices, so is not of much value. LDP is like a lottery play, would be better to have the Counter-cyclical part be the main player. The insurance subsidies take farming in the wrong direction, tho that is what lawmakers are pushing for more of these days.

But I'm not supreme ruler so....

--->Paul
 
(quoted from post at 07:39:04 10/06/12) I've been doing some sort of farming all my life and have never taken a dime of Farm Welfare and never will,its just like any other business if you can't make it get out and do something else.ALL farm welfare should be done away with.

How many acres do you "farm?" If you were paying high cash rent, or taxes on land, you would be in a farm program. How would you be able to actually be around for the next year if you didn't?

In my area you have to be in the program since the land has a value from the crop production records. Landowners require it.
 
I am not really following what your saying here, surely you are not implying direct payments don"t exist anymore? FDR may not be president but his legacy is still costing taxpayers 100"s of billions per year on every front -- Direct farm payments increase land costs regardless of market conditions and along with cyclical payments influence certain peoples decisions on what they plant which means those payments directly impact the supply of any given commodity, if a person knows he can get a direct parity payment on a rice crop or corn crop he may decide not to grow cotton or tobacco. The original reply was to a statement that farm payments kept food prices low when nothing could be further from the truth, not that I am saying it is in a farmers best interest to keep food prices low its just that subsidies have the affect of influencing business decisions thereby driving up land rents/price and other input costs. Direct payments to landownersbased on the 1996 farm bill are nothing but welfare. Notice I referred to corporate farmers and large acreage holders, these programs are gamed by a whole lot of people. I never implied that small farmers or feeders were going to get rich slopping at the federal trough, much the opposite.
 
I completely agree. My deceased Grandpa farmed full time from the day he was 12 years old. He went through the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl. When I asked him about government assistance for farming, he stated he never took a hand out and never would.
 
(quoted from post at 21:22:35 10/05/12) Being rich creates to many problems, Im gonna stay poor and HAPPY

No problems being poor ? Look at the numbers. The poor have the worst health, the least amount of teeth, live the shortest, spend more time in jail, have the least to live on when retired. The greatest amount of deaths in the summer from heat stroke and most likely to freeze to death in the winter.
Being poor is easier too. Less planning, work and discipline to be poor.
 
(quoted from post at 11:54:48 10/06/12)

It's all very one-sided, get rid of agriculture, down with agriculture, but not a peep about the 98% of other govt waste....

WOW,... exaggerate much?

Very odd, for being on an ag-related forum?

--->Paul

I don't think discussing gov farm programs on an "ag-related forum" is odd at all. :roll:
 
1. Farming is a business, not a way of life. There should be no government intervention at all. Forced "renewable" fuels are a government intervention that makes the price of certain crops artificially high.

2. There should be no subsidies. Not for farming, not for airports or anything else.

3. Government grants for research are a joke too and can be a form of susidies under another name. Look at the pharmaceutical companies who claim drugs are so high because of research. Most of that research is paid for with government grants.

4. If the government stops a subsidy then the states should not be allowed to subsidize that item because the states all get money handed to them from the feds. Which means that through the back door the feds are still subsidizing that item because that fed money allows the state to free up other money.....to subsidize said item.

5. Farmers like to claim that they are an inovative bunch of people. In the past that has proven true. Well cut out the subsidies and we will see who are inovative and who isn't. It's a business. If the owner/operator is smart they will make it. If they are deep in debt, chasing last years prices, not doing it smart they will fail.

No one shold have to pay for food or anything else twice, once at the store and again at tax time. Kinda like the college system. You have a school that is a state school, that charges tuition, gets handed money not only by the state but also recieves grants from the feds, who again makes sure that they know that they can get more federal money in the from of Pell grants to spend at the school. Whoa wait a seciond here, and the kids still spends 30K a year getting an education that may not get them a job??????

I have no problem with the food stamp program except where they can be used for things I don't think are a necessity. There are times when some people need a little help to get by. I'm really against long term help for those who can work but will not.

Rick
 
What the heck does Limbaugh have to do with corn/ethanol subsidies? Is that your attempt to send a nested insult my way? Why not do it directly.

I know several people in town growing corn - only because of the increased price and demand for its use in ethanol production. Have I followed every penny from China - to the White House - to New York - to the fuel-oil companies - to the farmer's pockets? No I haven't. Have you?

Yes, the Federal Government "converted" its corn-subsidy program last year. Instead of giving $1 per gallon cash to fuel-producers - they now give RIN credits (Renewable Identification Numbers).

The fact remains that the Federal Government is forcing the use of ethanol and it will soon be up to a mandate of 15 billion gallons per year.
 
Sounds like you see things a lot like me and Dr. Ron Paul! Cut it! Cut it to the bone and then boil the bone!
 

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